Flying UNDER class B without talking to anyone?

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Joffreyyy

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Joffreyyy
I know it is probably not the smartest thing to do - but is it legal...

I was reading an american flyers book and it made it sound like you need to have 2 way radio comms while within the 30 nm no matter what altitude you are at even if under the airspace

for example - around the NYC area, it goes out far over the water and the alt. it starts at is 1500 - 7000. Can I fly under that without talking to anyone VFR of course. I understand I need a mode C on altitude.
 
You need a transponder with Mode C but you don't need to talk to anyone unless you are going to physically operate within the Class B airspace.
 
Perfectly legal and done all the time. It certainly doesn't hurt to have flight following but not mandatory, of course.

Mode C is required, as you stated.
 
mr_happyland said:
Perfectly legal and done all the time. It certainly doesn't hurt to have flight following but not mandatory, of course.

Mode C is required, as you stated.
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Ok thought so... the regs stated what I thought and I just wanted to confirm I wasnt missing anything. Thanks :)
 
You can fly the ny coastline below 1500 ,without talking to anyone. Don't know how comfortable you'll be at that altitude.
 
I did it today, as a matter of fact.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Perfectly legal. Personally done it many times.
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I attended the PHX Tracon tour last year and yes, while perfectly legal, they encouraged us to call them just to let them know we were there and our intentions
 
I did most of my training VFR and IFR under a Bravo shelf here in Chicago. Just keep a few hundred feet under it and you're good to go.
 
Totally normal and don't need to talk to anyone. There's an area along the beach just south of JFK where the floor of Class B is 500ft. You're supposed to talk to JFK tower to buzz along there.

Not sure if that's a legal requirement but it would be dumb to buzz along in there and not give the tower a call. Plus it's always fun to hear calls like:

"Speedbird 1 Heavy traffic passing below you along the beach before your arrival, type Cessna 172. Bugsmasher 123 caution wake turbulence, type Airbus A380 passing directly over you"

I would just caution though that there's no guarantee that the big jets are going to stay up in the bravo. Depending on traffic setup for the day they can below the bravo well away from the airport so be extra careful. Here's where flight following will help as they'll know the pattern for the day and can give you a heads up.
 
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I do it all the time. Here near Atlanta, I have the distinct impression that they are busy enough with the aircraft *in* their airspace and have no interest in dealing with the aircraft outside (primarily under) their airspace.
 
With the right plane, you don't even need a txp or encoder to fly in the ring under the B.
 
Local Class B would just prefer you find your own way around and under the shelf and not have to talk to you. When pushed, they will provide FF with the admonition to "remain clear of the Class B".
 
I do it nearly every time I fly locally. My home base is within the mode C veil, and a lot of the area is underneath a Bravo shelf. A common route along the coast is actually above one shelf and below another.
 
rocketflyer84 said:
I would just caution though that there's no guarantee that the big jets are going to stay up in the bravo. Depending on traffic setup for the day they can below the bravo well away from the airport so be extra careful. Here's where flight following will help as they'll know the pattern for the day and can give you a heads up.
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Lol... my favorite rendezvous with a big boy was a few months ago when I was cruising along at 2,500' headed westbound over Lansing, IL (IGQ) towards Joliet (JOT) where I would turn north to set up towards Clow (1C5). Chicago Approach was too busy for me and wanted to route me down to Peotone, so I cancelled out with them prior to Lansing. So I'm cruising along VFR and look to my right where I see a Southwest 737 at my same altitude holding altitude and around 200kts.... I'm going around 170kts. So I'm approaching the JOT area and need to turn right, but big boy isn't really gaining on me very quickly or climbing. So I wait it out, all the while I'm within a good mile or so of him. Close enough to see faces in the windows. Much too close for my liking. So finally around JOT he's up far enough for me to cross behind him. Then I'm starting to worry about the wake turbulence.
 
It's not that unusual to find nontowered airports under Class B.
There is no communication requirement in Class E (VFR) or G.

There is usually a transponder requirement, and a speed limit most of us wish we could reach.
 
Almost every TCAS RA I've dealt with occurred flying into class b airports when the final was stacked out so long it was just outside the b airspace. All the guys that didn't want to talk to approach were buzzing around just outside the b thinking they would be clear from the jet traffic. When the primary ap is busy enough there can be traffic talking to Approach outside the b under a shelf. Be very careful if you are skirting around in close proximity to the boundaries. Big iron is lurking out there sometimes.
 
Joffreyyy said:
I know it is probably not the smartest thing to do - but is it legal...

I was reading an american flyers book and it made it sound like you need to have 2 way radio comms while within the 30 nm no matter what altitude you are at even if under the airspace

for example - around the NYC area, it goes out far over the water and the alt. it starts at is 1500 - 7000. Can I fly under that without talking to anyone VFR of course. I understand I need a mode C on altitude.
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Short answer, already given: Yes

Longer answer, in two parts: 1) Take a CFI up to show you the south shore route at 500' through the class B exclusion. Run the Hudson corridor while you're at it -- well worth the time and you'll enjoy it more with a second pilot so you can take in the view. 2) NY Approach knows the water is there too, and they also know the only way off LI while staying in gliding distance of someplace dry is through the Bravo. They are fairly generous with FF through the airspace. Just climb up to 4-6k and they'll likely send you right over JFK to wherever you are going -- which is also a stunning view, BTW, but only for us AvGeeks.
 
Joffreyyy said:
I know it is probably not the smartest thing to do - but is it legal...

I was reading an american flyers book and it made it sound like you need to have 2 way radio comms while within the 30 nm no matter what altitude you are at even if under the airspace

for example - around the NYC area, it goes out far over the water and the alt. it starts at is 1500 - 7000. Can I fly under that without talking to anyone VFR of course. I understand I need a mode C on altitude.
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Mode C is all you need unless you're penetrating. I used to fly all over unde the LAX-B without talking to anyone, even when there was only a few hundred feet between underlying and overlying airspaces. If you're in E, you're in E period.
 
rocketflyer84 said:
I would just caution though that there's no guarantee that the big jets are going to stay up in the bravo. Depending on traffic setup for the day they can below the bravo well away from the airport so be extra careful. Here's where flight following will help as they'll know the pattern for the day and can give you a heads up.
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Anything is possible but 14 CFR 91.131(a)(2) specifically prohibits large turbine aircraft from operating below the bravo airspace if they're operating in or out of the associated class bravo airport. That said, Flight following is a good thing is vigilance for our traffic is always wise.
 
I've flown under the B in a lot of areas, and I've never, ever seen comm traffic down there. Sort of defeats the whole purpose of the inverted wedding cake theme. I suppose there could be some obscure reason for one to go in under the side, but I fly under a lot of them without radio contact at all and so far, zero.
 
Brad Z said:
Anything is possible but 14 CFR 91.131(a)(2) specifically prohibits large turbine aircraft from operating below the bravo airspace if they're operating in or out of the associated class bravo airport. That said, Flight following is a good thing is vigilance for our traffic is always wise.
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I agree it's best to take FF, unfortunately when it is most useful is when you are most likely to get an "unable". :(
 
Brad Z said:
Anything is possible but 14 CFR 91.131(a)(2) specifically prohibits large turbine aircraft from operating below the bravo airspace if they're operating in or out of the associated class bravo airport. That said, Flight following is a good thing is vigilance for our traffic is always wise.
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It happens. (The FAR says "unless authorized by ATC" and sometimes ATC vectors jets below the Bravo)

For example, sticking with the original Long Island example the Class B over Republic Airport starts at 4,000 but large jets landing at JFK will often be sent right over Republic at 3,000. Someone cruising along at 3,000 to stay above Republic's D and below the NYC super B would come across such jets.
 
Brad Z said:
Anything is possible but 14 CFR 91.131(a)(2) specifically prohibits large turbine aircraft from operating below the bravo airspace if they're operating in or out of the associated class bravo airport. That said, Flight following is a good thing is vigilance for our traffic is always wise.
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I always wondered about that. We used to go into MIA quite often at my last job, and it was not uncommon for them to give us a vector and altitude then say "you'll be below the class B for x miles". Only in Miami. Never heard that any other place. I always wondered if it was legal when initiated by ATC.
 
rocketflyer84 said:
It happens. (The FAR says "unless authorized by ATC" and sometimes ATC vectors jets below the Bravo
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Well that explains it. I should have read your post before I posted my last comment.
 
rocketflyer84 said:
There's an area along the beach just south of JFK where the floor of Class B is 500ft. You're supposed to talk to JFK tower to buzz along there.

Not sure if that's a legal requirement but it would be dumb to buzz along in there and not give the tower a call.
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The Class B floor there is 500+, not 500. You probably want to be right at 500 in case you fly near any boats below.

Getting radar advisories there is useful, but no more necessary than anywhere else in Class E or G.
 
Once again, a funky NYC requirement, but -even though its not well documented you need call Kennedy tower. the transition is busy with GA traffic, and on a approach/departure route into one of the busiest airports in the world.
Can you imagine the public outcry if a 777 or the like had a near miss or worse with your Warrior?
As licensed Pilots we are the custodians of our airspace, and responsible to other users. One more event in the SFRA-Hudson corridor and we'll loose it, they'll drop the B to the floor and everyone will have to take the long way round NYC and lament the access we lost while watching youtube videos of Hudson reporting points.
The TAC says Contact the Tower 8m out. Check the ATIS too.
In the mode C veil and under a Bravo, you don't need to talk to anyone. But they see you, and issue advisories to others about you. at least monitor the frequency. We pay for ATC, they're on our side. Ask, and >98 times/100 they'll be pleased to hear from you.
neilki

acrophile said:
The Class B floor there is 500+, not 500. You probably want to be right at 500 in case you fly near any boats below.

Getting radar advisories there is useful, but no more necessary than anywhere else in Class E or G.
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neilki said:
Once again, a funky NYC requirement, but -even though it[']s not well documented you need call Kennedy tower.
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The requirement isn't poorly documented, it's nonexistent.

The TAC says Contact the Tower 8m out.
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That's if you need to contact the tower at all. But you don't if you're staying at 500. It's similar to the box on the same TAC in the middle of the LI Sound that says "Contact NY Approach within 20 nm". All Class B airports are surrounded by boxes like that on the TACs.

In the rare instances that you're required to talk to ATC in Class E (for example, the NYC East River exclusion area), the rule is documented in Part 93 (and referenced in the chart).

As I said, it's useful to set up radar advisories there. It's even better to set up with NY Approach, and let them hand you off to JFK tower. But like anywhere else, it's not required and may sometimes be impractical.
 
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Brad Z said:
Anything is possible but 14 CFR 91.131(a)(2) specifically prohibits large turbine aircraft from operating below the bravo airspace if they're operating in or out of the associated class bravo airport. That said, Flight following is a good thing is vigilance for our traffic is always wise.
Click to expand...

It happened every day in Philadelphia when I was based there. Atis had advisory on it to expect vectors outside the bravo fir sequencing to final. Lots of tcas alerts from mixing with traffic under the shelf. That reg doesn't apply if youre under positive control with the controlling facility.
 
FF is a great service and well worth it if you are traveling cross country on a relatively straight path. But if everyone operating under a Bravo shelf were to request it, ATC would be totally overwhelmed. My home airport is Delta under Bravo, and when I do request FF after exiting Delta, it is only when my destination is 50 or more miles with a more-or-less direct route planned. And when I do request it, I frequently have to wait to get a word in on frequency, and once FF is established, virtually all of the traffic alerts I get near the TRACON I am already aware of via my Garmin 430.
 
Henning said:
I agree it's best to take FF, unfortunately when it is most useful is when you are most likely to get an "unable". :(
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You probably know this, but there are some VFR routes and corridors through and under Bravo that have their own advisory freqs and you might be better off on the advisory than FF.

San Diego along the coast past Torrey Pines comes to mind.
 
rocketflyer84 said:
Totally normal and don't need to talk to anyone. There's an area along the beach just south of JFK where the floor of Class B is 500ft. You're supposed to talk to JFK tower to buzz along there.

Not sure if that's a legal requirement but it would be dumb to buzz along in there and not give the tower a call. Plus it's always fun to hear calls like:

"Speedbird 1 Heavy traffic passing below you along the beach before your arrival, type Cessna 172. Bugsmasher 123 caution wake turbulence, type Airbus A380 passing directly over you"
Click to expand...

I rented an LSA in Southern California and was direct LAX VOR when a UPS 747 on downwind flew over the top of me, my guess is it was 600-800 feet above. What a sight that was:D
 
docmirror said:
With the right plane, you don't even need a txp or encoder to fly in the ring under the B.
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Plane, glider, etc. We fly around under the shelf with no xponder, and regularly see Red and Blue jets underneath, or just skimming the bottom of, the bravo.
 
Plenty of no-radio no-transponder operations in and out of this spot.
 

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