Flying UNDER class B without talking to anyone?

[TommyG]

Yes, correct. And JFK tower tells people to fly 500.

At or below 500 is the norm. And I don't know who can stay at 500ft and not go up a few feet into the B. I always fly it 450ft.

And not all aircraft talk to the tower. The past month I have done the transition three times and three times I have had tower tell advise me of traffic they are not in contact with. And that is just south at the rockaways.

 

[docmirror]

Plane, glider, etc. We fly around under the shelf with no xponder, and regularly see Red and Blue jets underneath, or just skimming the bottom of, the bravo.

Red and Blue, prolly over on the east side. I don't mess over there much, but I've never seen one below me. Seen some at the base of the shelf.

 

[acrophile]

At or below 500 is the norm. And I don't know who can stay at 500ft and not go up a few feet into the B. I always fly it 450ft.

I maintain 500' there for proper obstacle clearance. The difference between a Class B floor of 500 and 500+ is that the latter authorizes you to fly at 500 rather than, say, 450 or 480. And since, as you point out, it's impossible to maintain any altitude without straying up or down slightly, I assume that when the FAA adds the plus sign to permit flying up to 500 rather than slightly below, they're permitting humanly achievable approximations to that feat. JFK tower has never complained when I do that.

 

[orange]

Totally normal and don't need to talk to anyone. There's an area along the beach just south of JFK where the floor of Class B is 500ft. You're supposed to talk to JFK tower to buzz along there.

Most people I know try to call Kennedy tower but they will not answer 9/10 times. Most times, you just fly it at 500 just off the beach.

"Speedbird 1 Heavy traffic passing below you along the beach before your arrival, type Cessna 172. Bugsmasher 123 caution wake turbulence, type Airbus A380 passing directly over you"

If it's a 380, it would be Super, not Heavy. (Emirates 201 Super)

 

[DJTorrente]

At or below 500 is the norm. And I don't know who can stay at 500ft and not go up a few feet into the B. I always fly it 450ft.

Scraping the top of your rudder on the class B isn't going to get you violated. The only way they have to enforce the +500 floor is your mode C transponder, which reports in 100' resolution, with the precision further reduced because ATC is getting a pressure altitude reading. If your (true) altitude drifts up to 525', there's no way for anyone (but you) to know you're in the B until your mode C increases to 600'. And if the incursion were only 100', I suspect the first thing you'd likely hear of it from JFK tower is a gratuitous altimeter reading hoping you'll get the hint and correct accordingly.

I'm not suggesting anyone deliberately lean against the cushion, but there is a cushion there. And for what it's worth, flying at 450' might give you 50' vertical separation from traffic you might have missed.

 

[acrophile]

The only way they have to enforce the +500 floor is your mode C transponder, which reports in 100' resolution

Your aircraft has known dimensions. So if ATC wanted to, they could determine your altitude by taking a photo from the tower and doing the trigonometry. But I'm sure they don't want to.

 

[Ventucky Red]

It can be done in the very complex LAX Class Bravo.... and I did it with my instrument instructor one day... but why do it?

I always get FF and a clearance when skirting the area... better safe than... "um Cessna yadda yadda yadaa, are you ready copy a number!!!"

 

[Mike I]

I maintain 500' there for proper obstacle clearance. The difference between a Class B floor of 500 and 500+ is that the latter authorizes you to fly at 500 rather than, say, 450 or 480. And since, as you point out, it's impossible to maintain any altitude without straying up or down slightly, I assume that when the FAA adds the plus sign to permit flying up to 500 rather than slightly below, they're permitting humanly achievable approximations to that feat. JFK tower has never complained when I do that.

Custom for that route is to fly it at 400'. You're offshore, flying directly over boats is unlikely, and I'd rather not be scraping the Bravo floor. There's zero issue flying it at 400', other than watching out for NORDOs also flying at 400' (I've seen a few Cubs flying that route, and when I've advised JFK with "traffic in sight", JFK didn't know about the traffic...not talking or squaking, despite Mode C veil.

 

[fiveoboy01]

Even with no transponder the tower should still have a primary target with no altitude information, right?

 

[dans2992]

Even with no transponder the tower should still have a primary target with no altitude information, right?

I think a lot of controllers have primary turned off on their scopes...

Too much clutter.

 

[fiveoboy01]

That would explain that. I didn't know they could do that.

 

[petrolero]

Nope. We do it all the time in Denver. In the practice area on VFR days it's more important to self-announce on 122.75 around here. TRACON can't know what maneuvers I or others might do at any given moment so it's tough for them to tell what traffic will become a factor and when. It's best to coordinate directly with other aircraft on the radio if possible.

When I did my IR training we didn't call TRACON unless we needed approaches. When tracking VORs, practicing holds, or doing basing maneuvers we used 122.75 and (my instructor's) calibrated eyeballs.

But yeah in general flying under Class B is no big deal - just need Mode C xpdr under the 30 NM veil.

 

[momalley]

Yes, correct. And JFK tower tells people to fly 500.

They usually tell you to remain at or below 500'

 

[flyingron]

The exception to the statement above includes a few special flight rules area that are under (or in some cases over) the class B areas:

1. DC (with the SFRA/FRZ)
2. NY (the Hudson/East River)
3. LA (the VFR corridor).

I have managed to cause a TCAS RA for an ORD departure when bopping along just over the class B there. Oddly, I was talking to approach and at least I had the MD-80 in sight.

 

[winrose46]

Before September 11th, I would fly around the DC beltway on the north/ north east side under the class B going to the eastern shore. Now with ADS_B Out, I am frequently flying without talking to anyone going above or below the class B airspace. Of course I fly outside of the SFRA unless I am on an instrument flight plan.