Flying to the mechanic with one bad brake

Morne

Morne

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Morne
Hypothetically, suppose the following:

1 - After a flight it is noted during taxi that the left brake is much less effective than usual.

2 - During the next preflight a small puddle of brake fluid is found under the left main.

3 - Taxiing test confirms that right brake is still fully functional but left brake not doing anything.

4 - The normal A&P is not located at the home field but rather at a nearby airport. Said A&P would prefer the plane be brought there.

Would it be kosher to fly the plane to the A&P's field with only one brake? Does the runway length matter, so long as the pilot is comfortable landing on that length runway sans left brake?

Love to hear your opinions/thoughts on this one!
 
Morne said:
Hypothetically, suppose the following:

1 - After a flight it is noted during taxi that the left brake is much less effective than usual.

2 - During the next preflight a small puddle of brake fluid is found under the left main.

3 - Taxiing test confirms that right brake is still fully functional but left brake not doing anything.

4 - The normal A&P is not located at the home field but rather at a nearby airport. Said A&P would prefer the plane be brought there.

Would it be kosher to fly the plane to the A&P's field with only one brake? Does the runway length matter, so long as the pilot is comfortable landing on that length runway sans left brake?

Love to hear your opinions/thoughts on this one!
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whistling.gif
 
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Morne said:
Hypothetically, suppose the following:

1 - After a flight it is noted during taxi that the left brake is much less effective than usual.

2 - During the next preflight a small puddle of brake fluid is found under the left main.

3 - Taxiing test confirms that right brake is still fully functional but left brake not doing anything.

4 - The normal A&P is not located at the home field but rather at a nearby airport. Said A&P would prefer the plane be brought there.

Would it be kosher to fly the plane to the A&P's field with only one brake? Does the runway length matter, so long as the pilot is comfortable landing on that length runway sans left brake?

Love to hear your opinions/thoughts on this one!
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My opinion is that to be legal you need to get what's commonly called a ferry permit from your FSDO and that needs to be signed by an A&P who claims to have inspected the airplane and found it sufficiently airworthy for the intended flight. As to the safety aspect, depending on the airplane you may need to find a runway aligned with the wind and in any case long enough that stopping isn't an issue. Assume that if one brake isn't working the other can't be used unless it's needed by itself (e.g. to prevent weathervaning).
 
gismo said:
My opinion is that to be legal you need to get what's commonly called a ferry permit from your FSDO and that needs to be signed by an A&P who claims to have inspected the airplane and found it sufficiently airworthy for the intended flight. As to the safety aspect, depending on the airplane you may need to find a runway aligned with the wind and in any case long enough that stopping isn't an issue. Assume that if one brake isn't working the other can't be used unless it's needed by itself (e.g. to prevent weathervaning).
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I seriously doubt you will find a FSDO that will issue a ferry permit based upon the stated operation in the OP.
 
I'd use a local mechanic or fly my mechanic in. If there is brake fluid somewhere it's probably just a leak in the line. That's assuming it isn't on the list of do-it-yourself airplane items, which I think brakes are. Should be, they aren't exactly rocket science.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
I seriously doubt you will find a FSDO that will issue a ferry permit based upon the stated operation in the OP.
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I wondered about that but since there are situations where braking isn't needed (heck the brakes on my taildragger barely work when new) I'd think it might be plausible with the proper restrictions. Certainly if the airplane were located at an airstrip where maintenance was simply unfeasible I would hope it wouldn't be necessary to abandon it until that situation changed. That said, I'd think that as long as a reasonably warm hangar was available for the work, I can't imagine why the mechanic couldn't make the short trip from the nearby field and make at least an acceptable temporary repair.
 
gismo said:
I wondered about that but since there are situations where braking isn't needed (heck the brakes on my taildragger barely work when new) I'd think it might be plausible with the proper restrictions.
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I doubt there is an Inspector willing to sign away his career (remember, he is an Aviation Safety Inspector), nor would I think there is an A&P that would sign such a certificate.

There are too many variables in operating an airplane with inop brakes on one side. Like the link in a chain an accident doesn't happen with one event, it's several small events that conclude with an accident.
 
Depends on the aircraft, less than usual may not be a problem. On the Navion, unless I'm landing on a field that's less than 1500 feet long, I probably don't even need the brakes. Once the wheels are on the ground it usually takes power to get the thing to move.

I've broken the brake to rudder pedal connection twice and I've managed to make it back to the parking space.
 
Is it legal, I don't think so. Would I do it, of course. Suitable runway of course. Have I done it more than once and couple of times with a turbo prop:smilewinkgrin:, Naw!
 
left brake not doing anything.
snip...Would it be kosher to fly the plane
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um, NOO!

I am known for not being so keen on regs, but I am pretty het up on being safe.
I can see the ntsb report word for word on this one!
 
Mr. A&P would you fix my brake, it just failed taxing in.
 
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You'll get violated if the FAA finds out and can prove it. At least, a friend of mine had this experience.
 
I'm with R&W -- not legal without a ferry permit (unless the brakes in that airplane are listed as an optional item in the AFM, and I've yet to see that), and no way any A&P or ASI I know will sign off on that for a ferry permit.
 
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Ron Levy said:
I'm with R&W -- not legal without a ferry permit (unless the brakes in that airplane are listed as an optional item in the AFM, and I've yet to see that), and no way any A&P or ASI will sign off on that for a ferry permit.
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TRUE, but, when a ferry permit is issued the A&P must inspect to see if it is safe for that flight. So, why not simply have them fix it?
 
jnmeade said:
You'll get violated if the FAA finds out and can prove it. At least, a friend of mine had this experience.
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In my experience it only matters how the FAA found out about it.
 
The way you proposed it.... It will NOT be legal... Especially now that it is plastered all over the internet..:wink2:

I can say for sure that a Warrior can safely land and stop under complete control with a failed left brake by using the right brake and applying left rudder during the roll out..:yesnod::yesnod::yesnod::nono:..

Ben.
 
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I guess I'm on the outside of this one also. I wouldn't move the airplane until it was fixed, assuming that was possible. I wouldn't ask for a ferry permit either unless it was my only choice.

What happens if you fly back to your mechanic and while landing someone doesn't see you and crosses the runway in front of you?

What happens if someone kid is riding a bike on the runway and you don't see them until you're on the roll? (this has happened to me BTW).

This is the kind of stuff we read in the NTSB report, and everyone says, "why did they do that"
 
N801BH said:
The way you proposed it.... It will NOT be legal... Especially now that is is plastered all over the internet..:wink2:

I can say for sure that a Warrior can safely land and stop under complete control with a failed left brake by using the right brake and applying left rudder during the roll out..:yesnod::yesnod::yesnod::nono:..

Ben.
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How would you discover the left brake didn't work? In a Grumman you know as soon as you discovered you could only make right turns, but in a Piper or Cessna using the proper taxi technique you only find out when slowing upon landing, then you'd be at the A&Ps place of business and of course you'd get it fixed right away.

Could the FAA prove different? I doubt they would even try.
 
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Tom-D said:
How would you discover the left brake didn't work? In a Grumman you know as soon as you discovered you could only make right turns, but in a Piper or Cessna using the proper taxi technique you only find out when slowing upon landing, then you'd be at the A&Ps place of business and of course you'd get it fixed right away.

Could the FAA prove different? I doubt they would even try.
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It is pretty easy to figure out the brake had failed. In my case I was doing T&G's at a short paved strip and being kinda anal I always test the brake pedals while on the downwind leg.. It was very apparent when the left brake pedal had NO pressure and the right one was good and stiff... I had to land sometime as I only had 4 hours of fuel left so I went back to my home field, X04, which was 20 miles away and made a safe landing... To this day I still test my brakes while airborne... I mean..... why not???:dunno:


Ben.
 
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When the brake is P-ing fluid on the ground, you know it's broken, and anything you say to the contrary to the FAA is either a flat-out lie or compelling evidence of lack of competence to hold any pilot certificate or rating -- take your pick. Maybe Tom is willing to encourage that, but I'm sure not.
 
Tom-D said:
How would you discover the left brake didn't work? In a Grumman you know as soon as you discovered you could only make right turns, but in a Piper or Cessna using the proper taxi technique you only find out when slowing upon landing, then you'd be at the A&Ps place of business and of course you'd get it fixed right away.

Could the FAA prove different? I doubt they would even try.
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Ever since I started flying, one of the first things I was taught was to test the brakes right after rolling to insure they were working, better to find out at the ramp. I continued to do this with every airplane type I flew (even in the large jets we were taught to tap the brakes after break away).

Tom-D said:
Could the FAA prove different? I doubt they would even try.
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Depends on the circumstances. The real question is why do you even want to take a chance of being in that situation? :dunno:
 
I would fix it before I flew it.

In fact, that's exactly what I did when it happened to me.

(It helps if you don't have to deal with that A&P stuff...)
 
It is not that big a deal to fix that sort of problem. You have a fitting, an O-ring (piston) or a line that has given way. A mech puts three boxes in his truck and a Nalgene lab bottle full of brake fluid and a tygon line for emptying the reservoir (for back bleeding).

He drives out, fixes the problem, signs the book, and safety of flight is not compromised.

About ten years ago, an operator ground looped his C180 on return from Juneau. He has this identical situation, setup up his landing at Juneau with a left crosswind, and landed slow. He taxied slowly to the UPS ramp and got his parts. On return to Gustavus (No UPS, barge or a/c is the only way) he set it up the same way- but the wind shifted. He ground looped and had to have the outer section of wing repaired, prop replaced and flange dialed to fly back to Juneau to get the crankshaft pulled.

He really saved a lot of money, didn't he?
 
I could just imagine the driver of a Grumman single or a Cirrus trying to taxi with one dead brake. Would be interesting indeed. Let's see: a left turn of 90 degrees...we'll need to apply the working right brake and pivot through 270 degrees and hope we can stop the turn just right...

And landing and holding short would be fun to watch.

Dan
 
Don't do it! Surely this will happen to you, just like it did to these guys!

Known (auto)brake defect upon departure.

/dramatization(!)



xq9imd.jpg
 
Dan Thomas said:
I could just imagine the driver of a Grumman single or a Cirrus trying to taxi with one dead brake. Would be interesting indeed. Let's see: a left turn of 90 degrees...we'll need to apply the working right brake and pivot through 270 degrees and hope we can stop the turn just right...

And landing and holding short would be fun to watch.

Dan
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Been there in a diamond, not fun but it works.

And FWIW I've had to leave the home drome to go fix brakes at another just a few miles away.
 
Ron Levy said:
When the brake is P-ing fluid on the ground, you know it's broken, and anything you say to the contrary to the FAA is either a flat-out lie or compelling evidence of lack of competence to hold any pilot certificate or rating -- take your pick. Maybe Tom is willing to encourage that, but I'm sure not.
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who said this one was P'ing fluid? A puddle of fluid under the wheel doesn't mean that it came from this aircraft, But knowing it was not working and taking off anyway? brings out a bunch of red flags.
 
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bbchien said:
It is not that big a deal to fix that sort of problem. You have a fitting, an O-ring (piston) or a line that has given way. A mech puts three boxes in his truck and a Nalgene lab bottle full of brake fluid and a tygon line for emptying the reservoir (for back bleeding).

He drives out, fixes the problem, signs the book, and safety of flight is not compromised.

About ten years ago, an operator ground looped his C180 on return from Juneau. He has this identical situation, setup up his landing at Juneau with a left crosswind, and landed slow. He taxied slowly to the UPS ramp and got his parts. On return to Gustavus (No UPS, barge or a/c is the only way) he set it up the same way- but the wind shifted. He ground looped and had to have the outer section of wing repaired, prop replaced and flange dialed to fly back to Juneau to get the crankshaft pulled.

He really saved a lot of money, didn't he?
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That 180 operator is simply a dumb a$$, Juneau has great facilities to get things fixed.
 
....hey no kiddin......That's why I said, "saved a whole buncha money, he did....".
You can't fix stupid.
 
If it is a tail wheel plane that would certainly make a difference. Other than the fact of it being illegal I think a tri gear plane on an adaquate runway would not be a big deal. JMO. Would I encourage somebody to do it, nope. Would I do it in a tri gear with an abundance of runway?:dunno:;)
 
Wow - this got a lot of great replies! Thanks, lads!

And no, this is not my bird. I have maintenance available at my home field. Plus, the 182 POH shows brakes as an "R" item. This is a buddy's ANCIENT 150, which I have no manual handy for (though I am sure he does). It was just an interesting question I thought.

Legalities aside, if I NEED my brakes to Land safely then I have really screwed up already. Taxiing is another matter, and good brakes on both sides are OBVIOUSLY desirable there.
 
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