Flying in the pattern which is the best option?

The longer the pattern,the more chance of being cut off,especially if your at a busy training airport.
 
dillardrg said:
This is not unusual here, I really do not like to schedule training flights on the weekend if they are to be in the pattern because I feel I'm wasting my students money by making fewer landings.
Click to expand...

Local DPEs here say the FAA at their latest big safety meeting with DPEs pointed out that loss of control accidents from 40 knots down to 0 on landing are increasing for the first time in a long time.

FAA is chalking it up to too many instructors doing nothing BUT T&G landings and their students never have to fully slow the aircraft below effective flight control speeds and without practice tend to lose control during that phase.

It’s been that way in taildraggers for a long time. Teaching to full stops works out the student a lot harder than teaching T&G in tailwheel aircraft.

So... don’t fall into the “more is better” trap.

More GOOD landings with proper follow-through on flight controls for wind conditions and bringing the aircraft down to slow speeds, is looking to be better than a million T&Gs. Depending on the student, and what level they’re at, of course.

If I see myself struggling with not locking those ailerons over in a crosswind landing, I know the reason... too many T&G. Do a few full stop / taxi-backs focusing on where the controls go after landing, and it all clicks back together.

Landing isn’t over until the wheels stop. :)
 
denverpilot said:
Local DPEs here say the FAA at their latest big safety meeting with DPEs pointed out that loss of control accidents from 40 knots down to 0 on landing are increasing for the first time in a long time.

FAA is chalking it up to too many instructors doing nothing BUT T&G landings and their students never have to fully slow the aircraft below effective flight control speeds and without practice tend to lose control during that phase.

It’s been that way in taildraggers for a long time. Teaching to full stops works out the student a lot harder than teaching T&G in tailwheel aircraft.

So... don’t fall into the “more is better” trap.

More GOOD landings with proper follow-through on flight controls for wind conditions and bringing the aircraft down to slow speeds, is looking to be better than a million T&Gs. Depending on the student, and what level they’re at, of course.

If I see myself struggling with not locking those ailerons over in a crosswind landing, I know the reason... too many T&G. Do a few full stop / taxi-backs focusing on where the controls go after landing, and it all clicks back together.

Landing isn’t over until the wheels stop. :)
Click to expand...

I've heard this argument before, and if I understand you right with your FAA reference, your T&G landing only slow to about 40 knots?

On a runway the length of M54 T&Gs can be to very close to a full stop with all the control inputs required.

Don't assume someone is doing it wrong just because he may be doing it different than you, it could start an argument where one is not warranted.
 
dillardrg said:
I've heard this argument before, and if I understand you right with your FAA reference, your T&G landing only slow to about 40 knots?

On a runway the length of M54 T&Gs can be to very close to a full stop with all the control inputs required.

Don't assume someone is doing it wrong just because he may be doing it different than you, it could start an argument where one is not warranted.
Click to expand...

I didn’t assume anything.

If you had an emotional reaction to the information and warning about upcoming FAA scrutiny, that’s all you.
 
Getting personal now?

I was referencing your data about the 40 knot T&G. I am not that hung up in how people do things even if they are different than the way I do them.

There many ways to do a task effectively, not just the one I choose.
 
dillardrg said:
Getting personal now?

I was referencing your data about the 40 knot T&G. I am not that hung up in how people do things even if they are different than the way I do them.

There many ways to do a task effectively, not just the one I choose.
Click to expand...

I never said you make 40 knot T&Gs. You need to learn to read.

No, not getting personal.

Like I said, if you’re having an emotional reaction to the post, you need to re-read it literally and then assess your (over) reaction.

Nothing in it was aimed at you.
 
If it is physically HARD to push the ailerons over it is because pilot's arm muscles and tense. Pilot should relax the shoulder muscles and just gently push the stick over.
 
PaulS said:
1/2 to 1 mile depending on the AC and conditions, although if I feel I need it I'll extend the downwind to give myself a longer final, could be many reasons for this. Was up in Laconia, NH, Wednesday, with an instructor in a new sr 22. I've flown a 22 once before and this was my first landing in about a month. Laconia has a big old hill about a mile from the runway in line with the downwind. I was a little behind, instructor says turn base before or after the hill, your choice, I chose after the hill which put us on a 2 mile final. Pretty far out, but I caught up with the airplane and did an ok landing. Also, no one in the pattern.
Click to expand...
I remember that hill, a light on it? IIRC, I always pointed at the light and turned short of it. Pretty close to pattern altitude to fly around it.
 
dillardrg said:
I am surprised that so many replies here are for a 3/4 ish mile downwind. I fly out of Lebanon, TN (M54) and about 90% of the 172 training flights I observe in the pattern are waay beyond that.

Today my student had just started his base turn when we heard a call of another aircraft turning base for the same runway. He stopped his turn and we looked for the traffic. At first we couldn't find him, then we saw him about 2 miles further out and about 200' above pattern altitude. We followed him and turned base where he had and we were on a 2.5 mile final. He was a local CFI with student.

This is not unusual here, I really do not like to schedule training flights on the weekend if they are to be in the pattern because I feel I'm wasting my students money by making fewer landings.

My theory as to the reason for the big pattern is that the CFI makes more money in the long run by dragging out the training. A normal pattern takes about 6 minutes, that is 10 touch and goes/hour. If you reduce that number by flying bigger patterns you make more money.
Click to expand...
And then the student busts a checkride for logging cross country in the traffic pattern.
 
dillardrg said:
Getting personal now?

I was referencing your data about the 40 knot T&G. I am not that hung up in how people do things even if they are different than the way I do them.

There many ways to do a task effectively, not just the one I choose.
Click to expand...

denverpilot said:
I never said you make 40 knot T&Gs. You need to learn to read.

No, not getting personal.

Like I said, if you’re having an emotional reaction to the post, you need to re-read it literally and then assess your (over) reaction.

Nothing in it was aimed at you.
Click to expand...

image.jpeg
 
BillTIZ said:
I remember that hill, a light on it? IIRC, I always pointed at the light and turned short of it. Pretty close to pattern altitude to fly around it.
Click to expand...
Haven't done it at night so I haven't noticed a light, but I do believe years ago it was a right pattern there, not sure why it changed.
 
We fly a .6 mile pattern here at home cause there’s a perfect road for teaching downwind and traffic volume is so high helps everyone stay on the same page allows 4 or 5 planes in the pattern no problem. Wide patterns fk it all up I’ve been at JKA and heard downwind 27 been like hmmm I’m on the downwind 27 look around then eventually see them 2 miles off my right wing. Or I’ll hear base and I’ll be midfield downwind and could still beat them in. Personal flying I just do constant 180 degree turns to the runway.
 
Sorry guys, I went back and changed my poor choice of words that took this off track to a discussion of touch and goes.

I had commented on one of my pet peeves, large patterns, and let myself be dragged off track.
 
SoCal RV Flyer said:
Try a short approach for practice. Chop to idle abeam the numbers and glide down in one fluid descending turn. It will be obvious if you're too far away from the runway!!
Click to expand...
Better yet, fly almost every approach that way!
 
dillardrg said:
On a runway the length of M54 T&Gs can be to very close to a full stop with all the control inputs required.
Click to expand...
So why not just do a stop & go then? Bring it to a full stop, run the mini reconfiguration checklist and then take-off. Far more controlled, far safer and instills better discipline in the student (imo).

But, as anyone who knows my history here knows, I HATE touch & goes view them as THE biggest unnecessary evil of aviation.
 
DanWilkins said:
At a safety seminar we were taught that the base to final turn is the most common part of the pattern for 'loss of control' AKA a stall/spin. As we all know that turn can easily be an acute angle because of an extended base. I
Click to expand...
Usually this is because people don't pay attention to winds and don't lead the turn enough. I've never heard of "extended base" before. Extending downwind is a spacing tool.
 
And let me repeat a personal opinion: that more pilots have been killed by using too little bank in the pattern, rather than too much.

One way to define a skid is too little bank for a given rate of turn. Pilots with an innate fear of banking down low, or with an arbitrary limit set on bank in the pattern, are precisely those pilots who may tend to “cheat” with rudder to hurry a turn.

I’m not saying one should horse the plane around the pattern, yanking and banking with reckless disregard. Only that a little too much bank should be feared less than not enough.
 
Last edited:
flyingron said:
Usually this is because people don't pay attention to winds and don't lead the turn enough. I've never heard of "extended base" before. Extending downwind is a spacing tool.
Click to expand...

I thought one of the primary causes was instructors telling students to keep their banks shallow in the pattern.

So they start tightening up their turns with rudder, let the airspeed get slow and...bam.

Edit: @FastEddieB beat me!
 
I don't disagree, but they aren't in contradiction. It's the poor turn planning that leads a student to need to overbank or skid his turns. There's good reason why flight training starts off with various ground reference manouvers.
 
Flying with an instructor: Nod politely and follow the suggestions no matter how inane.
Next flight: Go back to flying the way you always fly.

2 miles out is where at least some people are doing their fancy descending teardrops - probably not the best place for a downwind.
 
FastEddieB said:
And let me repeat a personal opinion: that more pilots have been killed by using too little bank in the pattern, rather than too much.

One way to define a skid is too little bank for a given rate of turn. Pilots with an innate fear of banking down low, or with an arbitrary limit set on bank in the pattern, are precisely those pilots who may tend to “cheat” with rudder to hurry a turn.

I’m not saying one should horse the plane around the pattern, yanking and banking with reckless disregard. Only that a little too much bank should be feared less than not enough.
Click to expand...

When I blow a turn to final by passing the centerline, I just stay in the turn until the centerline comes back. If anyone asks, I'm practicing my S-turns.
 
SoCal RV Flyer said:
Try a short approach for practice. Chop to idle abeam the numbers and glide down in one fluid descending turn.
Click to expand...

I'm power off from abeam the numbers to the ground almost every time, even including a short straight base leg. I don't see where big patterns or power during the landing approach should be the norm in light aircraft.
 
I've probably posted this at least a dozen times, but there are always newbies who might be seeing it for the first time:

12969154323_5afded528d.jpg


12969007405_4c363a6d3d.jpg


12969156523_cebcd4e8bf.jpg


12969009965_283de39044.jpg


From "Stick and Rudder".
 
I like to adjust for conditions. If one is using over 30 AOB time to evaluate the distance, to little AOB, same. Of course winds come into play. I only know of one or two ways to skin a cat, but many variations to the pattern.
 
I think he is saying that +30deg Bank Angle is too much ... but not specifying "too little" bank angle.
 
Forrest Gump voice on:

"Ravioli had a way of explainin' thangs tuh me so it was easy to unnerstand."

Forrest Gump voice off:
 
If you take off, full throttle, from a 3,000' runway in a healthy C172, climb at Vy, turn crosswind when you're 300' below pattern altitude, turn downwind when you're within 100' of patter altitude, when abeam the numbers, reduce throttle and pitch for desired rate of descent and trim the aircraft for your desired approach speed, then turn base when you observe the runway threshold to be 45 degrees off your left quarter, you'll have flown the perfect pattern. Incidentally, in that C-172, that'll equate to about a 1/2 mile mid-field abeam and 3/4 to 1 mile final.
 
dillardrg said:
...Today my student had just started his base turn when we heard a call of another aircraft turning base for the same runway. He stopped his turn and we looked for the traffic. At first we couldn't find him, then we saw him about 2 miles further out and about 200' above pattern altitude. We followed him and turned base where he had and we were on a 2.5 mile final. He was a local CFI with student.....
Click to expand...

Yep, my home drome is one of the busiest non-towered airports around. The other day, a pilot on a left crosswind quizzed the stammering student who'd just called the downwind from a 45 entry about where exactly he was. Then said, "oh is that you way out over the interstate (about 2 miles away)?" The CFI jumped on the radio and said that that was them. And, that they were purposely flying "wide" patterns to give the student "a little more time". When I was working on my PPL, a wide pattern was an extra "one-potato, two-potato", not "five-potato, twelve"!

I about lost my cookies. Do CFIs really think they're doing there students any favors? What do you think they're gonna resort to doing when flying solo? Some hotdog in a Maule is gonna skewer them and they'll never see it coming.
 
wilkersk said:
And, that they were purposely flying "wide" patterns to give the student "a little more time"...Do CFIs really think they're doing there students any favors? What do you think they're gonna resort to doing when flying solo?
Click to expand...

I think the CFI might need a refresher on the Law of Primacy.
 
wilkersk said:
45 degrees off your left quarter...about a 1/2 mile mid-field abeam and 3/4 to 1 mile final.
Click to expand...

Geometry would dictate the length of the final would be equal to the downwind distance if you're turning 45° off the end of the runway.
 
James331 said:
You're flying the pattern in IMC??
Click to expand...
It's okay that you're a jackass. I enjoy that about you. But you should read and understand what you reply to before replying. That way, you will come across as an intelligent jackass instead of the other kind.

As a recap: I said that a person should make all turns in the pattern using a normal bank angle and to go around if he overshoots final, rather than increasing his bank or angle of attack. You misunderstood that as meaning that a person should not bank over 25 degrees in the pattern or that I put the plane into a spin every time I bank over 25 degrees. It's hard to tell which of those meanings you invented, but neither of them appears in the words I used. Then I gently corrected you by explaining that a "normal" bank is different in the pattern than in IMC, which means that those are two different situations. And you somehow took that to mean that I fly the pattern in IMC.

Do you advocate increasing bank beyond what is "normal" in the pattern (which varies depending on a lot of factors including the plane and the pilot) and/or angle of attack to correct for overshooting final (and, to be clear, I mean after it has been overshot because of a mistake in the pattern such as failure to keep the downwind parallel to the runway or improper anticipation of wind on base)? If not, then you agree with me and just didn't understand what I said, probably by choice. If you do advocate that technique, then please explain your reasoning as I am here to learn.
 
dmspilot said:
Geometry would dictate the length of the final would be equal to the downwind distance if you're turning 45° off the end of the runway.
Click to expand...

I guess I could have said at least 1/2. But, it always works out to be around 3/4 to 1 mile depending on how hard the wind is blowing and from what direction.
 
Last edited:
FloridaPilot said:
I just went up yesterday with a Flight Instructor, I haven't flown all year until yesterday so I wanted to get back in the air. So as I was in the pattern as a habit I fly a fairly tight pattern, (About 1/2 to 1 Mile from the Runway) In the past my Flight instructor wanted that just in case an engine quits which makes sense to me. This other Flight Instructor wanted me to fly out further, about 2 miles out. His reasoning was because people are more likely to lose control of the aircraft if closer to the runway rather than flying a longer pattern.....Do you folks agree with this? I'm not too sure.

What do you think?

As always thanks for your input!

FP
Click to expand...

I think you and the CFI suffered a failure to communicate.
 
PaulS said:
When I blow a turn to final by passing the centerline, I just stay in the turn until the centerline comes back. If anyone asks, I'm practicing my S-turns.
Click to expand...

My instructor said to me one time, you sure like practicing S turns on final don’t ya, all I could say was yep
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top