Flying IFR without autopilot?

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MultiMediaWill

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Will
I just got my PPL now I am practicing IFR on Vatsim with FS9. I could not imagine flying in IFR in IMC conditions without an autopilot to help me. There just seems like too much going on. How would I talk to ATC, intercept a LOC, turn, and descend all at the same time? Does this get any easier when I actually start instrument training?
 
You get used to it, think of when you first were learning how to fly, all that stuff going on. I like to tell people getting your instrument it like getting your PPL again.
 
MultiMediaWill said:
I just got my PPL now I am practicing IFR on Vatsim with FS9. I could not imagine flying in IFR in IMC conditions without an autopilot to help me. There just seems like too much going on. How would I talk to ATC, intercept a LOC, turn, and descend all at the same time? Does this get any easier when I actually start instrument training?
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Yes it does.

But I have to say, while it is important to be thoroughly trained in AP operation under IFR, it is probably more important that you learn to fly under IFR completely without the AP.

APs can and do go wonky on you. It is, IMHO, preferential to have an operating AP on every IFR flight, but absolutely not a non-starter if the AP is INOP.

You know how to fly the plane. After you have your IR, you will know how to fly the plane under IFR (hopefully without the AP). It is just that simple.
 
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PS: I trained for and received my IR in an aircraft that did NOT have an AP. If your CFI-IA is any good, you will regard the AP as an assistant; not as a requirement.
 
spiderweb said:
PS: I trained for and received my IR in an aircraft that did NOT have an AP. If your CFI-IA is any good, you will regard the AP as an assistant; not as a requirement.
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Same here. Or at least an AP that couldn't be trusted. :)
 
MultiMediaWill said:
I just got my PPL now I am practicing IFR on Vatsim with FS9. I could not imagine flying in IFR in IMC conditions without an autopilot to help me. There just seems like too much going on. How would I talk to ATC, intercept a LOC, turn, and descend all at the same time? Does this get any easier when I actually start instrument training?
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Yes, it does, because your instructor will teach you how to do it all properly. Futzing around teaching yourself on some non-certified flight program is only going to make it harder later on, as you'll be practicing techniques and procedures which you'll then have to unlearn before you can learn good ones. Wait until you get a few instrument training lessons, and then practice what your instructor has taught you, and don't try to get ahead of yourself.
 
spiderweb said:
PS: I trained for and received my IR in an aircraft that did NOT have an AP. If your CFI-IA is any good, you will regard the AP as an assistant; not as a requirement.
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my cfii only let me start using it after I got most of the requirements done. he wanted to make sure I knew how to fly without it.
 
It is a challenge, especially at first, but you do get used to it. One of the things you learn is to prioritize. If you're getting overloaded, focus on fly the plane and get back to ATC when you can. Things like that.

Also, once you get into instrument flying in a non-training environment, you find it's typically a good bit easier, so the hell that your instructor should put you through becomes good preparation for the less hell you'll get in the real world typicallly.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Also, once you get into instrument flying in a non-training environment, you find it's typically a good bit easier, so the hell that your instructor should put you through becomes good preparation for the less hell you'll get in the real world typicallly.
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Or as we said in the military, "We sweat in training so we do not bleed in combat." If my trainee comes back from the ride and says, "That was easy compared to what you put me through," I feel I've done my job properly.
 
My first (and todate, most challenging) instrument flight was done in a brand-new 182 with a broken King autopilot. Like Nate said above, a good scan and lots of practice will serve you well.

My mental game is that I am constantly telling myself, "you don't have to fly perfectly for the next 30 minutes - just the next 30 seconds." You just stack them. And it works just fine.

All that said, I wouldn't launch in my Bonanza for significant hard IMC if the autopilot was inop; gosh-golly, a Bo can gather up speed in a hurry, if you don't maintain good pitch control. Personal choice.
 
Yes as others have said it does get easier as you learn. I think when you are new you prioritize and when you get more experience you learn the "System" so well that you know what to expect. It helps keep you ahead of the airplane so you are already doing the thing you know you need to do in the very near future.
I never had an autopilot for any IFR training and I didn't have one for the first 700 hrs of 121 flying I did. YOu get used to it and then when you get an autopilot, well, its just too easy;).

Good luck with your training.
 
I didn't have an A/P during training, nor for the majority of my IFR/IMC flights the first 100+ instrument hours after getting my IR. You CAN fly IFR in IMC without one. It's nice with one, but as others have pointed out, it's one more thing you better be monitoring in case it goes wonky on you.
 
Power up, speed's coming up, lift off, into the clouds, contact with controller, establish course, engage autopilot, hard left turn, autopilot off, good thing I know how to hand fly in IMC

This moment brought to you by 30+ year old club planes
 
MultiMediaWill said:
I just got my PPL now I am practicing IFR on Vatsim with FS9. I could not imagine flying in IFR in IMC conditions without an autopilot to help me. There just seems like too much going on. How would I talk to ATC, intercept a LOC, turn, and descend all at the same time? Does this get any easier when I actually start instrument training?
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After 40 hrs with a good CFII you'll be hot. The sims are tougher to control than the planes, the good sims some, the cheaper sims a lot. I did the whole IR including check ride in a week in a 172 that had a single KX 170B and an ADF. It's work, but it's simple, you just need good spacial and directional awareness.

You are learning though at the cusp of the age where you no longer must deal with that. You have the option to choose SVT, if there is none for rent in your area you can probably work a pretty favorable leaseback deal on a new one with a warranty and factory support finance at a good FBO. You can also save several hundred thousand dollars by upgrading a solid older airframe with a G-500 & GNS 750 while doing a fresh FWF.
 
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MultiMediaWill said:
I just got my PPL now I am practicing IFR on Vatsim with FS9. I could not imagine flying in IFR in IMC conditions without an autopilot to help me. There just seems like too much going on. How would I talk to ATC, intercept a LOC, turn, and descend all at the same time? Does this get any easier when I actually start instrument training?
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My first aircraft was a AP-less Cherokee 180 -

in this case trim is your friend - you set up your aileron tabs /rudder trim to keep the airplane mostly wings level - then you set your speed using your stab trim and then set level with power and there you go. I flew about 100 instrument hours [of which 70 was in the clag] in that airplane with no AP. It becomes second nature and your scan becomes second nature as well -
 
The day you take your Instrument check ride you'll be able to hand fly an IMC flight just fine. In fact, don't be surprised if the DE dings you a bit for NOT using the autopilot enough if the plane has one.

The real danger comes in the flight a year after your check ride, when those IMC hand flying skills are rusty.

Personally I don't fly enough IMC to risk taking off in to anything but very benign IMC conditions without an autopilot or a copilot. If the autopilot fails in IMC and I have no copilot I consider myself to be in 'pre-emergency' situation.

The next time you fly on an airliner, even on a CAVU day, that airplane with two full time professional pilots was probably on autopilot for 98% of the trip. There's a reason for that.

My bottom line: Ron is right, let your CFII guide your training. Be careful about using home simulators without CFII guidence. You must be able to confidently hand fly a full IMC profile.

You must also be able to correctly use your autopilot, and know its capabilities and limitations.

Once you are out on your own be realistic about your level of proficiency.
 
Most Van RV owners use auto-pilots for IFR. Why?

Because the RV doesn't ride like a sedate bus. It doesn't take much to roll off to one side of the other. It's also an added bonus, that high tech solid-state auto-pilots are rather "cheap" for experimentals. These same auto-pilots have been used to set "around the world" records. They're also extremely dependable. Of course, the RV is also traveling much faster, than many certified single engines will ever think about. Things happen faster.......and the A/P allows you the time to get the descent and approach items in order. :)

L.Adamson
 
It will come with time, as others have said. I know that I am not alone in having flown hundreds of hours of actual without an autopilot.

One caution, though: The first five hours or so of instrument training should be devoted solely to control of the aircraft by instrument reference....forget about navigating and shooting approaches, just get "the numbers" for your plane and practice until you can change speed without changing heading or altitude, transition from cruise to a climb or descent without changing airspeed, etc. It is only after control of the airplane becomes second nature that you can begin to add the avionics.

Bob Gardner
 
+1. Learn to aviate first. Navigate, communicate and other stuff will come later when you're ready.

And if it's any consolation, moving up to a different type with more bells & whistles will contain similar "back to square one" learning experiences. In my case, the first X minutes are spent staring at a area about the size of a quarter in the center of the attitude instrument. After that, I gradually expand the scan with hopes of seeing the borders of the 4"-5" instrument by the end of the session.



bobmrg said:
It will come with time, as others have said. I know that I am not alone in having flown hundreds of hours of actual without an autopilot.

It is only after control of the airplane becomes second nature that you can begin to add the avionics.

Bob Gardner
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wabower said:
And if it's any consolation, moving up to a different type with more bells & whistles will contain similar "back to square one" learning experiences.
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That would describe me. More bells and whistles always seem more confusing than the old fashioned way. I initially had trouble learning to fly an airplane with a sophisticated autopilot and flight director when I had never used either before.
 
What is this autopilot thing you speak of? I've yet to fly a plane with one that worked. All my IFR experience is sans autopilot. Yes, it is the best way to learn.

And, as noted above, get IR instruction before playing with the simulator without instruction.
 
When teaching sim in the King Air and Citations, I knew that the newb's would struggle with APFD more than any other part of the program, simply because they hadn't been forced to wrestle with them in smaller planes.

The training for the magic box should be presented as a separate module, using the pattern now in place for glass cockpits. It's been a while since I did it, so the 142's may have already made the changes.

Everskyward said:
That would describe me. More bells and whistles always seem more confusing than the old fashioned way. I initially had trouble learning to fly an airplane with a sophisticated autopilot and flight director when I had never used either before.
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bobmrg said:
It will come with time, as others have said. I know that I am not alone in having flown hundreds of hours of actual without an autopilot.

One caution, though: The first five hours or so of instrument training should be devoted solely to control of the aircraft by instrument reference....forget about navigating and shooting approaches, just get "the numbers" for your plane and practice until you can change speed without changing heading or altitude, transition from cruise to a climb or descent without changing airspeed, etc. It is only after control of the airplane becomes second nature that you can begin to add the avionics.

Bob Gardner
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The only airline job I had had no autopilot. Story was there were only 2 BAe 3100 Jetstreams with an A/P operated pt 91 by Coca Cola. I doubt if any more got upgraded since. I have flown 2 aircraft where I had confidence in the autopilot. All the rest either didn't function or would produce intermittent bad commands like just rolling hard left through 90 degrees while tracking along. In 2500+ hrs I've had a functioning auto pilot for maybe 25-35 or so. I never really miss it and find myself wishing I had one although I will likely add one, it will be in the last of the panel upgrades, and if no Owner Experimental by then it'll likely be a Cessna 400.
 
wabower said:
When teaching sim in the King Air and Citations, I knew that the newb's would struggle with APFD more than any other part of the program, simply because they hadn't been forced to wrestle with them in smaller planes.
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When I went to King Air initial I had never flown an airplane with a FD or a reliable AP so I had no idea.

wabower said:
The training for the magic box should be presented as a separate module, using the pattern now in place for glass cockpits. It's been a while since I did it, so the 142's may have already made the changes.
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Agree. I don't know what they are doing now either. When I went to a full glass airplane I know they spent the first couple days of ground school on the avionics.
 
For me to feel comfortable IFR in extended IMC without modern SVT gear anymore I want to be 2 pilot. When you switch back you just feel handicapped without.
 
Different strokes. Neither SVT or copilot is necessary for a long and happy life. Nice to have, sure. Need to have, none of the above.
Henning said:
For me to feel comfortable IFR in extended IMC without modern SVT gear anymore I want to be 2 pilot. When you switch back you just feel handicapped without.
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wabower said:
Different strokes. Neither SVT or copilot is necessary for a long and happy life. Nice to have, sure. Need to have, none of the above.
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If I had 10,000hrs in IMC I may feel different, but to fly without the advantages now that they are available I find foolish.
 
Henning said:
If I had 10,000hrs in IMC I may feel different, but to fly without the advantages now that they are available I find foolish.
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Getting too used to them and not being able to fly without them is the real foolishness. Stuff fails...
 
SCCutler said:
All that said, I wouldn't launch in my Bonanza for significant hard IMC if the autopilot was inop; gosh-golly, a Bo can gather up speed in a hurry, if you don't maintain good pitch control. Personal choice.
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I've found that with S-tech equipped Bo's -- if turbulence develops in the IMC I just kick the autopilot off and hand fly. The S-techs just do such a poor job of flying smoothy in turbulence...It drives me crazy to watch.

I hope the Aspen's are better in that regard.
 
denverpilot said:
Getting too used to them and not being able to fly without them is the real foolishness. Stuff fails...
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No reason not to have redundant glass systems. A 600 (really a 300 would work) on each side with a GNS 750 each side on a cross feed able system would provide fine redundancy and a third independent SVT dedicated emergency standby if that is not enough. There is no longer a need to fy a 2D interpretive scan panel. I've already been there when it all goes wrong in bad weather with an old style panel and you wish you knew more accurately where the terrain was as you pick up ice and wait for the controller to call you clear to descend; it sucks, that's why I spent the money I did.
 
You might enjoy riding along in a sim session to see how the training is administered by the 142 schools. Pilots are required to shoot both coupled and hand-flown approaches and missed approaches, as well as normal maneuvering and navigation chores with and without the AP.

IOW, the man wants to know if you understand how to properly use the autopilot and that you can fly without it if it breaks.

denverpilot said:
Getting too used to them and not being able to fly without them is the real foolishness. Stuff fails...
Click to expand...
 
MultiMediaWill said:
I just got my PPL now I am practicing IFR on Vatsim with FS9. I could not imagine flying in IFR in IMC conditions without an autopilot to help me. There just seems like too much going on. How would I talk to ATC, intercept a LOC, turn, and descend all at the same time? Does this get any easier when I actually start instrument training?
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Try instruments in a helicopter that has no autopilot. An unstable aircraft that requires constant attention by the pilot to keep flying straight then go throw in IMC. At first it's complete overload, then after a few hours you look forward to the challenge. You'll get used to it. A good plan before you takeoff, a good scan while airborne and prioritize your actions between navigation and talking to ATC.
 
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