Flying Across MOA's

[kenjr]

I'm a 3 week PPL with a few XC's under my belt...including my first through Houston's Class B.

I'm taking a trip tomorrow with a buddy to play golf down on the coast. I'm leaving KGTU and going to KRAS. I'll pass through a number of MOA's on the way down there. I'll pick up flight following on departure from KGTU and keep it all the way down.

I'm assuming that Houston Center or whoever I'm talking to will transition me through those without me having to specifically say anything to them, correct? If there are any issues/activity they'll either vector me elsewhere, ask me to adjust altitude or tell me to stay out?

I don't anticipate any problems - just haven't flown through a gauntlet of those yet and while I'm confident that ATC will help me through - just making sure.

 

[mcoflyer]

You can fly through MOA's, but center should warn you if any of them are "hot". After you get settled down at cruise just ask them..."Houston Center, Cessna 12345 What's the status of the Bumble Bee MOA?".

 

[JimNtexas]

Just realize that if you go in to those MOA's while they are hot you are sharing the air with a 22 year old kid with 100 hours doing acro in a T-38 or T-45.

Good luck.

 

[kenjr]

yeah, i checked them on my sectional - worse case I can just fly 5500 and stay under all of them...would like to get higher if at all possible of course, but I'll see what Houston Center has to say. The big one goes up to 11,000 and I ain't gettin' up that high...

 

[ChitDisturber]

I've flown through them when they are hot, it can be kinda fun, usually the controller will hand you off to the person controlling activates in the MOA.


Fly through it, sometimes the guys will put on a bit of a show for you

 

[35 AoA]

I've flown through them when they are hot, it can be kinda fun, usually the controller will hand you off to the person controlling activates in the MOA.


Fly through it, sometimes the guys will put on a bit of a show for you

Disclaimer: a MOA is not exclusive use, and as such, civil traffic is certainly allowed to transit. No argument there.

Now the conservative approach. Having spent many an hour flying in MOA's and other SUA, I'll say that it is quite common for us to be very fast, maneuvering very aggressively, and more than likely, without the capability to effectively pick out a light civil aircraft until it is a very close pass. I say that as a guy with a very capable air to air radar, and lots of other tools at my disposal. We can see you if we know where to look, but when you are talking on two radios simultaneously, and in the middle of a BFM engagement while straining at 6+ G's to look over your shoulder and maintain sight of your opponent, looking out and giving and honest to God visual scan for VFR traffic is difficult if not impossible. So I would say while it is perfectly legal for you to do so, keep your head on a swivel because we probably don't see you. If you can see us and avoid, thats all good, but don't expect it to be the other way around, as counter intuitive as that might seem.

Second point, the person controlling the MOA is likely a center controller. MOA's don't normally have just some dedicated guy sitting there with a radar in front of him. The controlling agency can tell you if it is hot, and typically what altitudes people are working, but beyond that, you are on your own.

Bottom line, if you push through a hot MOA, keep your head on a serious swivel, and figure out with the controlling agency the best game plan to safely transit said area.

 

[ChitDisturber]

Disclaimer: a MOA is not exclusive use, and as such, civil traffic is certainly allowed to transit. No argument there.

Now the conservative approach. Having spent many an hour flying in MOA's and other SUA, I'll say that it is quite common for us to be very fast, maneuvering very aggressively, and more than likely, without the capability to effectively pick out a light civil aircraft until it is a very close pass. I say that as a guy with a very capable air to air radar, and lots of other tools at my disposal. We can see you if we know where to look, but when you are talking on two radios simultaneously, and in the middle of a BFM engagement while straining at 6+ G's to look over your shoulder and maintain sight of your opponent, looking out and giving and honest to God visual scan for VFR traffic is difficult if not impossible. So I would say while it is perfectly legal for you to do so, keep your head on a swivel because we probably don't see you. If you can see us and avoid, thats all good, but don't expect it to be the other way around, as counter intuitive as that might seem.

Second point, the person controlling the MOA is likely a center controller. MOA's don't normally have just some dedicated guy sitting there with a radar in front of him. The controlling agency can tell you if it is hot, and typically what altitudes people are working, but beyond that, you are on your own.

Bottom line, if you push through a hot MOA, keep your head on a serious swivel, and figure out with the controlling agency the best game plan to safely transit said area.

Agreed

But if you arnt keeping your head on a swivel anyways, probably should avoid flying :wink2:

I've been handed off to "showtime" a few times when crossing the MOA by Paso Robles.

 

[catmandu]

I say that as a guy with a very capable air to air radar, and lots of other tools at my disposal.

Flippin' glider over Minden spooked me to no end one day, right down the middle of a section in combat spread. Bastages seem to always be in the notch.

 

[roncachamp]

Disclaimer: a MOA is not exclusive use, and as such, civil traffic is certainly allowed to transit. No argument there.

Civil traffic operating VFR is allowed to transit. Traffic operating IFR must be kept outside unless the controller is also working the using aircraft.

Second point, the person controlling the MOA is likely a center controller. MOA's don't normally have just some dedicated guy sitting there with a radar in front of him. The controlling agency can tell you if it is hot, and typically what altitudes people are working, but beyond that, you are on your own.

The controlling agency is likely an ARTCC, but the controller may not be in communications with the using aircraft.

 

[Dr. O]

Living in/near the thumb of Michigan most of my life, where if you don't fly through the MOA you don't fly much, I have over the decades become hardened to them. I almost never call ATC to see if a MOA is hot. (IFR is a different critter, of course)
I fly where I please VFR and expect them to obey the same flight rules.
Interestingly, the air to air crashes between civil and military seem to occur mostly outside of a MOA.

 

[roncachamp]

Living in/near the thumb of Michigan most of my life, where if you don't fly through the MOA you don't fly much, I have over the decades become hardened to them. I almost never call ATC to see if a MOA is hot. (IFR is a different critter, of course)
I fly where I please VFR and expect them to obey the same flight rules.
Interestingly, the air to air crashes between civil and military seem to occur mostly outside of a MOA.

Perhaps that's because most pilots choose to remain outside active MOAs.

 

[frfly172]

A lot of times it's just easier to go through the moa than around it.keep your head outside and enjoy the ride. Be carefull there isn't a restricted area attached to the moa.

 

[azure]

Living in/near the thumb of Michigan most of my life, where if you don't fly through the MOA you don't fly much, I have over the decades become hardened to them. I almost never call ATC to see if a MOA is hot. (IFR is a different critter, of course)

And in any case, if you are on FF with Saginaw and are on course to enter Steelhead when hot, they might just drop you rather than keep working you in there. Not sure if this is because of a LOA with ZOB or what. The time I am thinking of, I am pretty sure I was high enough to be seen by ZOB, yet they did not hand me off. Instead they told me that if I entered the MOA, I was on my own.

This was a few years ago BTW.

 

[35 AoA]

The controlling agency is likely an ARTCC, but the controller may not be in communications with the using aircraft.

Great point. I'm almost never in comms with the controlling agency when operating in MOA's. Obviously they can reach us on guard, which they frequently do, but in a lot of cases, you have a primary UHF safety of flight freq between all members of the flight which is discrete from the ARTCC.

 

[35 AoA]

I fly where I please VFR and expect them to obey the same flight rules.
Interestingly, the air to air crashes between civil and military seem to occur mostly outside of a MOA.

Certainly valid points. And I would agree that I haven't heard of too many midairs or near midairs in SUA, at least when compared to everything else. My only point was that in a single seat jet, when you are task saturated with the mission and tactical employment, there just isn't the brain power or the visual scan left to effectively see everything out there. You are eyes out and VFR all the time, but you have to imagine that there is a wingman who is out there primarily watching his lead and working to stay in position. As a flight lead, I will do my best to scan visually and work the radar to pick folks out, but again, in a really dynamic scenario such as BFM, you just don't have that luxury. Hence why we have dedicated areas for high performance aircraft to execute tactics in.

 

[roncachamp]

Great point. I'm almost never in comms with the controlling agency when operating in MOA's. Obviously they can reach us on guard, which they frequently do, but in a lot of cases, you have a primary UHF safety of flight freq between all members of the flight which is discrete from the ARTCC.

They may not be able to reach you on guard. I was a controller at Chicago ARTCC. Like most ATC facilities, we had guard, it was on the roof of the center in Aurora, Illinois. The MOAs were rather distant.

 

[Alexb2000]

Here is why I don't fly through hot MOA's:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mE_julH9WM

 

[docmirror]

Living in/near the thumb of Michigan most of my life, where if you don't fly through the MOA you don't fly much, I have over the decades become hardened to them. I almost never call ATC to see if a MOA is hot. (IFR is a different critter, of course)
I fly where I please VFR and expect them to obey the same flight rules.
Interestingly, the air to air crashes between civil and military seem to occur mostly outside of a MOA.

(I'm in N TX and fly thought the one's to the NW all the time)

MOA is the safest place for a GA plane to be. And when I did a study on it back around 2010, it wasn't mostly, it was exclusively. There's never been an air to air inside an MOA. It's all boogy man warnings and threats.

 

[Badger]

I think your briefer on 800WxBrief will give you expected status of the MOA's prior to departure. This will give you a bit more heads up than ATC during flight.

 

[Captain]

I think your briefer on 800WxBrief will give you expected status of the MOA's prior to departure. This will give you a bit more heads up than ATC during flight.

You think the WxBrief guys info from preflight will be more current than ATC during flight?

 

[roncachamp]

MOA is the safest place for a GA plane to be. And when I did a study on it back around 2010, it wasn't mostly, it was exclusively. There's never been an air to air inside an MOA. It's all boogy man warnings and threats.

Might that be because most pilots choose not to enter active MOAs?

 

[JOhnH]

You think the WxBrief guys info from preflight will be more current than ATC during flight?

Probably not, but I have never had ATC give me a MOA status prior to taking off. It is kind of nice to know which direction to point yourself as early as possible.

 

[Immelman]

Some folks make broad-brush statements about flying through MOAs but it is not so simple if the place you are doing can ONLY be reached by flying through one. There are several airports and strips in the west this way, and I have elected to fly to a few. The restriction if the MOA is hot is no IFR, of course, but let's be real here for a moment: the nature of the MOA is that the airspace is shared.

Sure, there are certain hazards to both safety and training quality that I think justify avoidance if it is reasonable to circumnavigate a MOA.... but if I want or need to go to airport xyz and the only way through is via a MOA, I'm going, sorry.

 

[docmirror]

Might that be because most pilots choose not to enter active MOAs?

I wasn't able to ask the 'why' it is so, but that's the way it worked out. I just got raw data for the past 40-ish years. There may be an element of avoidance involved, and it may be high, but unless or until we have a data point, my study stands.

Personally, I just got sick of going around, under, or over MOAs which adds time and fuel to my trip so I investigated.

 

[Badger]

You think the WxBrief guys info from preflight will be more current than ATC during flight?

my post says "expected status" The more info I have prior to take off the better. Yes ATC will be the most current during flight. remember all available information

 

[35 AoA]

Some folks make broad-brush statements about flying through MOAs but it is not so simple if the place you are doing can ONLY be reached by flying through one. There are several airports and strips in the west this way, and I have elected to fly to a few. The restriction if the MOA is hot is no IFR, of course, but let's be real here for a moment: the nature of the MOA is that the airspace is shared.

Sure, there are certain hazards to both safety and training quality that I think justify avoidance if it is reasonable to circumnavigate a MOA.... but if I want or need to go to airport xyz and the only way through is via a MOA, I'm going, sorry.

Absolutely agree.

 

[Ghery]

yeah, i checked them on my sectional - worse case I can just fly 5500 and stay under all of them...would like to get higher if at all possible of course, but I'll see what Houston Center has to say. The big one goes up to 11,000 and I ain't gettin' up that high...

Why not? That's my typical eastbound altitude when crossing the Cascades IFR. In a 172 or 182. No problem.

 

[35 AoA]

my post says "expected status" The more info I have prior to take off the better. Yes ATC will be the most current during flight. remember all available information

Only problem with pre-flight info you can get from FSS is that it will likely be highly innacurate and very general.....as in overly pessimistic. A lot of MOAs around training bases will simply block out normal operating hours for ease of scheduling and will thus "own" the airspace (for DoD scheduling purposes). In the end, there are only a finite number of events that will end up flying in that timeframe due to flight hour/crew/training requirement limits. Throw in maintenance and weather cancels realtime, and normally MOA's are used much less than a blanket schedule you would get from FSS or written pubs would have you believe. In areas such as the one I fly from, we typically don't use the local MOAs that much, and will generally only go there real time if weather prevents us from going to our normal restricted/warning areas. So there would be nobody who would know about that until it actually is active, which at that point, only ATC would be aware of. Just some amplifying info for those interested in how the other side of the coin works.

 

[docmirror]

Uh, DoD/mil av don't own MOAs. They are shared use airspace, unless of course sharing means 'GA get/stay out'. If shared use means what I think it means, we both get to use it simultaneously.

 

[coma24]

I transition them all the time when flying VFR, but never without radar service from the appropriate facility. Haven't had a traffic call or seen another airplane yet. Whenever I ask, they're usually far away.

 

[coma24]

35 AoA, your comments about the actual level of utility of the MOA is very enlightening, thank you. That, and your honest comments about limited see and avoid while you're busy doing maneuvers were helpful, too. I'd always assumed that, but it's good hear it all the same.

 

[ClimbnSink]

I thought MOAs were forgotten about post checkride/written. The nondork side of the pilot spectrum flies through them willynilly as Doc points out there has never been a collision.

 

[frfly172]

Just shared the moa,the only problem I had was almost got run over by a 172 ,who was not talking to anyone ( no flight following)

 

[ClimbnSink]

Just shared the moa,the only problem I had was almost got run over by a 172 ,who was not talking to anyone ( no flight following)

You almost hit him because you were relying on voluntary, nonbinding ATC separation to stay alive tsk tsk. Look out the window dude.

 

[35 AoA]

Uh, DoD/mil av don't own MOAs. They are shared use airspace, unless of course sharing means 'GA get/stay out'. If shared use means what I think it means, we both get to use it simultaneously.

That's why I caveated that statement in () by saying "for DoD scheduling purposes". I figured someone would take issue with that statement if I didn't specify what I meant by "own", which you obviously did anyway. On the mil side, when someone schedules a range, be it a MOA, R, W, etc, it is for all intents and purposes theirs....as in other military flights don't just fly into it without prior coordination with the aircraft/unit scheduled for it. That isn't to say that civil traffic can't transit, but it is the way we typically go about business mil vs mil. That's all I was saying.

You seem somewhat frustrated about this issue, which I understand. That being said, I don't know of any mil aviators that get upset with legal VFR traffic transiting a MOA. Sure it can be a distraction at times, but I'm simply writing this stuff because I care about everyone's safety, first and foremost, that of the civilian pilot with no military flying experience or frame of reference of what we actually do out there. Knowing what is actually happening, how it works, and the things to look out for are, I think valuable bits of info for every pilot to have. I certainly had no clue about it when I was a civilian only pilot, and it was eye opening to see for the first time back in the day what actually goes on. Anyway, if you are under the impression that the military has a mindset of "GA get out of MY airspace", you are mistaken. That is nothing I have ever heard from anyone. We're just as happy to share it with you, as you are with us. The big takeaway IMHO is to just be aware of our limitations compared to yours, and to know that there are certain phases of flights where the "see and avoid" is really going to rest mostly on your shoulders due to the nature of what we are doing. That's all.

 

[docmirror]

I squawk, but I don't talk. Last time I was on FF going west from DFW area I got a guy come on and say: "Bonanza 12345, Westover shows in use". To which I replied: "roger", to which he said" Bonanza 12345, say intentions", to which I said: "level 12 thousand 5 hundred direct Alexander field NM".

 

[docmirror]

That's why I caveated that statement in () by saying "for DoD scheduling purposes". I figured someone would take issue with statement otherwise. On the mil side, when someone schedules a range, be it a MOA, R, W, etc, it is for all intents and purposes theirs....as in other military flights don't just fly into it without prior coordination with the aircraft/unit scheduled for it. That isn't to say that civil traffic can't transit, but it is the way we typically go about business mil vs mil. That's all I was saying.

Whelp, when you use the literal quotes around the word "own", that means you are quoting someone, or yourself previously. I didn't see anyone else that used that word to describe an MOA, so I figured you were trying to show that the ownership[sic] was defined by the quotation.

I don't want to start another he-said, he-said about it, but in no way does the mil own that MOA resource. Don't really care what the various branches of the DoD does about it, and that's not germane to this thread anyway, which is about a spam can flying in there.

 

[35 AoA]

I don't want to start another he-said, he-said about it, but in no way does the mil own that MOA resource. Don't really care what the various branches of the DoD does about it, and that's not germane to this thread anyway, which is about a spam can flying in there.

Never said it did. The quotes were to denote that "own" is just a figure of speech with respect to how we talk about airspace internally.....ie not related to who actually owns the airspace (ie an FAA agency). Anyway, I appreciate that you don't care. Maybe others do, or maybe they don't. Feel free to ignore me if you have no interest in what I say.

 

[docmirror]

Never said it did. I appreciate that you don't care. Maybe others do, or maybe they don't. Feel free to ignore me if you have no interest in what I say.

I'm interested in the same thing, which is why I corrected your literal quotation of to "own". some Ga pilots might get the impression that once active, the agency that scheduled it now "own"s it. If to "own" mean what we typically mean in common English that would indicate that "own"ership is the province of the "own"er and all others must/will/should defer.

Feel free to ignore me if you don't like being corrected.

 

[Velocity173]

I used to divert IFR aircraft around the MOAs all the time during active times. I could do that because I "owned" the airspace. It's just a saying.