Flying Across MOA's

kenjr said:
yeah, i checked them on my sectional - worse case I can just fly 5500 and stay under all of them...would like to get higher if at all possible of course, but I'll see what Houston Center has to say. The big one goes up to 11,000 and I ain't gettin' up that high...
Click to expand...

When I fly to Port Aransas from Austin (as I often do) I sometimes file IFR using the Palms One departure, which will take you pretty much direct. You're restricted to 5000 feet though, which is where the puffy's often are.
 
docmirror said:
I squawk, but I don't talk. Last time I was on FF going west from DFW area I got a guy come on and say: "Bonanza 12345, Westover shows in use". To which I replied: "roger", to which he said" Bonanza 12345, say intentions", to which I said: "level 12 thousand 5 hundred direct Alexander field NM".
Click to expand...

My area West Texas/New Mexico, has lots of MOA's. The controllers have pretty good information regarding the training in my area out of Whte Sands down to Alpine. MOST of the warnings were for low AGL operations at high speed (they love scaring cows I guess). Only alerts I ever had were to climb (usually to 3500 to 4500 AGL) and maintain course.
 
Westover starts at either 9 or 10k, depending on number. Students out of Sheppard I think. As I monitored FTW center, I didn't hear any callouts for traffic, but I guess they were out there. If I'd been instructed to alter course/alt, I'd just cancel FF and continue on, which is why I don't talk anymore.
 
I understand what the military is doing in a MOA and that's why I avoid if they're hot. They sure don't need to worry about me. I also don't take unnecessary risks especially with passengers and I consider flying through a group of maneuvering fighters a risk. Besides going under/over/around isn't that big a deal and I fly in West Texas a lot also.

Let's let them have the space if they need it.
 
I had a interesting flight through a MOA north of the Adirondack Mts. I was talking to ATC and they said it was hot, but with A-10's that are usually down on the deck, below their radar. Occasionally they pop up to see who's there, but ATC would let me know if they saw anything.. A little while later I got a call (read this in your fastest ATC voice) "N12345, traffic 3 o'clock - ah - 9 o'clock, never mind."
 
docmirror said:
I'm interested in the same thing, which is why I corrected your literal quotation of to "own". some Ga pilots might get the impression that once active, the agency that scheduled it now "own"s it. If to "own" mean what we typically mean in common English that would indicate that "own"ership is the province of the "own"er and all others must/will/should defer.

Feel free to ignore me if you don't like being corrected.
Click to expand...

Forgive my grammatical ignorance.....I was an engineering major in college and crunched out horrible reports as a side show :)
 
the frustrating thing about MOA's is that the military knows in advance when the MOA's are going to be used. Of course airplanes break, schedules change, so like any flight school the schedule may change on the day of.

There ought to be a way for the military to update a web page in real time to tell controllers and pilots when they expect MOAs to go hot, and what kind of airplanes are going to be using them.

I'm mean, it's not like the government would have a problem putting up a web server is it?
 
JimNtexas said:
the frustrating thing about MOA's is that the military knows in advance when the MOA's are going to be used. Of course airplanes break, schedules change, so like any flight school the schedule may change on the day of.

There ought to be a way for the military to update a web page in real time to tell controllers and pilots when they expect MOAs to go hot, and what kind of airplanes are going to be using them.

I'm mean, it's not like the government would have a problem putting up a web server is it?
Click to expand...

Big changes like the MOAs being cancelled say due to weather are relayed to FSS in a timely fashion.

The problem is when the flight schedules change rapidly and by the time the change is put out the typical IFR GA pilot has already planned around the MOA. Even then that's not a big deal at least for through flights. Key up the landline and pass the word that the MOAs went cold early and reroute guys. Unfortunately for arrivals and departures the info just doesn't get relayed fast enough to make a real difference.
 
Last edited:
OPSEC. I bet they don't publish the times because they are DoD operations, even if only for training.
 
In AZ, NM, NV, UT we got our fair share of MOAs, too. 'Wouldn't do much flying if you avoided them. One of the best flights is between Gila Bend and Ajo, through R2305, one of the hottest restricted areas of them all. You can contact "Snake-Eye" and fly right through it while it is hot, at 500 AGL. Luke is the largest fighter base, with F16s and, soon, F35s. A real hoot.
 
bullwinkle said:
OPSEC. I bet they don't publish the times because they are DoD operations, even if only for training.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I'm going to guess this is the reason as well. We absolutely do have CAC enabled range management/scheduling websites used to take/give back range time. I used them all the time during my time back in the day as a skeds writer, both in my current and previous command. We had RFMSS @ Miramar for all the social/yuma ranges, and we have the TCTS tool at Oceana for the same purpose. Without getting into the details of how the ranges are scheduled, you can add or drop time on short notice on those sites....at least speaking to fleet/operational scheduling. I mention training commands, because they work things a little differently with their airspace. When I was a skeds assistant/slave in the FRS/FTU, we would often block out entire days of the papa ranges in the w291. Not that those have much bearing on the discussion, but a similar approach is used in overland MOAs in Meridian and Kingsville, and I'd guess places like Moody/Vance/etc where there are basically MOA's almost exclusively dedicated to the local training commands. And many of those types of ranges are the ones that probably most folks are bumping up against. Most fleet training occurs in restricted areas, or in WA's just due to supersonic requirements and/or ordnance delivery req's. MOA's are great, but just like you all, I don't look at them as anything close to exclusive use, so obviously the hairs on the back of the neck are a little more raised. We have a few of them in the Fallon Range Training Complex, which are heavily used, but there just isn't much going on out there. We also used several in the Yuma/El Centro area consistently, but most of those were higher altitude blocks and well out of the way of normal VFR traffic in that area. The ones that do freak me out are the VFR transition routes both through the Fallon/FRTC as well as the R2508 above China Lake/North of Edwards where you have the Iyokern Transition. Plenty of close passes to be had in those spots, and I think it is a testament to the awareness of both parties (civil and mil) that midairs aren't occurring in those spots. But that is a good thing......people are doing the right thing, and going out there informed about what is going on.
 
JimNtexas said:
the frustrating thing about MOA's is that the military knows in advance when the MOA's are going to be used. Of course airplanes break, schedules change, so like any flight school the schedule may change on the day of.

There ought to be a way for the military to update a web page in real time to tell controllers and pilots when they expect MOAs to go hot, and what kind of airplanes are going to be using them.

I'm mean, it's not like the government would have a problem putting up a web server is it?
Click to expand...

I think the news is full of what a good job the government does with websites these days

Just saying
 
Alexb2000 said:
I understand what the military is doing in a MOA and that's why I avoid if they're hot.
Click to expand...

There's "hot," and there's "hot."

One center with a lot of MOA and RA airspace to deal with used to almost automatically answer "yes" if you asked of the MOA was hot, but if the pilot mentioned intended route, the center would let him know if there were any ops in the air at the moment, and where they were working. More than once I heard "Let us know when you're entering, and we'll tell them to work south of you."

Going east over Bonneville about 15 years ago, I was advised of traffic. I couldn't see them, and the center came back with "should be at your 10 low for 6 miles, if you don't see them advise immediately." I looked down and saw a B-52 flying between bombing ranges, low enough that I at first thought that his shadow was another plane in formation.

The MOAs in northern Nevada are often used by the TOPGUN guys from Fallon NAS.
 
CT4ME said:
In AZ, NM, NV, UT we got our fair share of MOAs, too. 'Wouldn't do much flying if you avoided them. One of the best flights is between Gila Bend and Ajo, through R2305, one of the hottest restricted areas of them all. You can contact "Snake-Eye" and fly right through it while it is hot, at 500 AGL. Luke is the largest fighter base, with F16s and, soon, F35s. A real hoot.
Click to expand...

Exactly. If you live out west, you pretty much can't fly at all if you were to avoid MOA's all the time. They're everywhere and huge out here.
 
I learned courtesy of a warning over flight following, a decent amount of MOAs have a tiny R airspace to go with them. I now double check if my intended route crosses MOAs.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top