Fly In - day after reflection on idiots in pattern

Palmpilot said:
If I understand it correctly, the Canadians have the advantage of one consistent set of procedures that apply in their country, instead of the two conflicting procedures shown in the FAA's figures shown above.
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Hahaha! You think USA POA pilots are going to OVERFLY the airport then turn around and come back on a midfield crossover to downwind when a simple turn onto downwind will get them on the ground faster? That's an advantage? Hahahahahahaha.....:)
 
dtuuri said:
Hahaha! You think USA POA pilots are going to OVERFLY the airport then turn around and come back on a midfield crossover to downwind when a simple turn onto downwind will get them on the ground faster? That's an advantage? Hahahahahahaha.....:)
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I'm not talking about the merits of the procedures themselves; I'm talking about the hazard created by the FAA's publishing of conflicting pattern entries.
 
Palmpilot said:
I'm not talking about the merits of the procedures themselves; I'm talking about the hazard created by the FAA's publishing of conflicting pattern entries.
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They should have never came up with the 45 to begin with. Now it's all sorts of back tracking and unregulated exceptions to regulations because they can't say "yeah, we were wrong on that"
 
Deelee said:
I think, after reading this, I am doing to stick to what I was taught and use the crossing midfield above 500’ tpa when applicable. And also to keep good situational awareness and communicate appropriately. Haven’t had a problem yet, but I am always hyper-aware of where everybody is in a pattern (that I know of).
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You're doomed.;)

My home field (KGAI) is a zoo. An active flight school with foreign students, closest airport to DC for business jets plus some based there and then a bunch of us others. Plus we're inside the SFRA so you're on Potomac App and not Unicom until closer than I like (reduced SA). It's the norm to have 4-5 planes in the pattern and then a Falcon or Citation arrives on the straight in, or like myself, on the RNAV Sunday after getting below the 1500 layer. There was still a 172 that didn't make a single call that pulled out in front of me on short final.

Comms early and often and be descriptive. Those students don't know the ILS or RNAV fixes give mileage. Be ready to extend or do a circle to give spacing and don't be afraid to actually ask on Unicom "Cessna 1234 what are your intentions". If you don't fly the plane we'll just be replaced by robots. :eek:
 
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EdFred said:
Except now you lost sight of the cub doing pattern work that just took off. Would have seen him the whole time if you entered an upwind.
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How have I lost sight of him when the entire airfield and traffic pattern is in front of me? And if I enter on the upwind in my low wing, it is most certainly not a given that I will see him, at least not until he climbs into me while I'm on the crosswind. I'd rather not turn across the departure end of an active runway. Maybe it's just me.
 
dtuuri said:
Hahaha! You think USA POA pilots are going to OVERFLY the airport then turn around and come back on a midfield crossover to downwind when a simple turn onto downwind will get them on the ground faster? That's an advantage? Hahahahahahaha.....:)
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So if you were approaching in calm wind you wouldn’t cross over and just make a simple right turn to join the left downwind? You better hope the dude coming in nordo from the other side isn’t thinking the same thing and you both land coming in from opposite directions at the same time.
 
Stephen Shore said:
...And over the past few months as we get closer to January 1, it is getting more relevant.
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Even after Jan 1, there will be a lot of planes without ADS-B, at least away from the major airports. I don't have it (or even a transponder) and don't plan to install it.

I'm less bothered by unconventional pattern entries than I am by pilots who fly their downwind a mile or more from the airport.
 
GLDP said:
So if you were approaching in calm wind you wouldn’t cross over and just make a simple right turn to join the left downwind? You better hope the dude coming in nordo from the other side isn’t thinking the same thing and you both land coming in from opposite directions at the same time.
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In the USA the standard entry is to make a simple turn to downwind after merging on a 45. In calm wind, two pilots choosing opposite runways would eventually come nose to nose, but they'd have more time to discover the other as they maneuver through the pattern's legs. They'd be slower, too, on final, when they finally point at each other. Even then, should they land without seeing the other, they could taxi past one another on the ground with minimum or no damage. Better to meet there than cruising across the runway at 1,000 feet.
 
Wow.

So many argu.... discussions in how to do a simple thing... Well, IIRC it WAS simple at one time... Well, maybe my memory ain't so good no more... Still, if (no, scratch that) WHEN I get my medical, I will study relentlessly to not only scrape the rust off, but to UNDERSTAND the new regulations, and options.

But, once I do, I wonder if I'll be too intimidated to ask for clarification here...

I'm not gonna hit the books, or get any instruction until I've got that 3rd class in my hand...

Until then, carry on... I've got lots of popcorn...

I do know this: I still drive a motor vehicle, and NOBODY knows how to "zipper" merge on the interstate, or ANY of the rules of the road anymore.

We're doomed... Doomed, I say!
 
CharlieD3 said:
Wow.

So many argu.... discussions in how to do a simple thing... Well, IIRC it WAS simple at one time... Well, maybe my memory ain't so good no more... Still, if (no, scratch that) WHEN I get my medical, I will study relentlessly to not only scrape the rust off, but to UNDERSTAND the new regulations, and options.

But, once I do, I wonder if I'll be too intimidated to ask for clarification here...

I'm not gonna hit the books, or get any instruction until I've got that 3rd class in my hand...

Until then, carry on... I've got lots of popcorn...

I do know this: I still drive a motor vehicle, and NOBODY knows how to "zipper" merge on the interstate, or ANY of the rules of the road anymore.

We're doomed... Doomed, I say!
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Their definition of zipper is leave the one side of fabric static and bunch the other side up completely until the zipper binds. It also helps if they leave more than 6" between them and the car in front of them.
 
dtuuri said:
In the USA the standard entry is to make a simple turn to downwind after merging on a 45. In calm wind, two pilots choosing opposite runways would eventually come nose to nose, but they'd have more time to discover the other as they maneuver through the pattern's legs. They'd be slower, too, on final, when they finally point at each other. Even then, should they land without seeing the other, they could taxi past one another on the ground with minimum or no damage. Better to meet there than cruising across the runway at 1,000 feet.
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If you don’t see each other to begin with how in the world would you be able to see each other as you progress through the legs. You’d both be headed directly away from each other concentrating on your landing. You not realizing till you’re one the ground is very dangerous. You don’t know what kind of aircraft the other one is, it’s closing speed or it’s ground roll. If you managed to see each other both on opposing finals, who overshoots? Both of you? So here you are both overshooting because it was a split second decision, nose up attitude on a runway heading. If one or both of you crossed over you should be able to see each other and one of you can turn around to follow the other in.
 
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Dana said:
Even after Jan 1, there will be a lot of planes without ADS-B, at least away from the major airports. I don't have it (or even a transponder) and don't plan to install it.

I'm less bothered by unconventional pattern entries than I am by pilots who fly their downwind a mile or more from the airport.
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Many still won't have a radio. Nor are they required to use it at these fields. A lot of folks on this thread don't seem to appreciate that.

This really isn't that complicated. Look outside. Avoid other aircraft. Smile. If you don't want to do any jostling around at an uncontrolled airport to stay safe, then avoid busy airports and fly-ins.
 
dtuuri said:
The rules under 91.126 are circular...
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I see "make all turns of that airplane to the left" in 91.126, but I don't see anything about flying a circular pattern.
 
PaulS said:
Reading this thread is a great reminder that the most important thing to do is listen early, announce where you are and intentions, and most importantly, look because some people fly with no radio. If there are more than 2 or 3 in the pattern you need to be especially careful and try to blend into the traffic. Most encounters I've had in the pattern are cordial and either I accommodate or I am accommodated if there is a question.

I flew into Auburn/Lewiston Maine on Sunday. I announced five miles out, (probably should have announced a little further out, because I was cooking), but anyway, a Cessna on the downwind announced after I did and told me he had just turned downwind. I had announced a midfield entry crossing over the field. I told him I would turn south to enter from the crosswind instead, he said he was almost to midfield, I found him, told him I had him and I would follow him. When he was turning final a Citation piped up that he would position and hold after the Cessna landed for an immediate take off after the Cessna cleared the runway. I told the Citation that I would extend my downwind for him. He thanked me, then he asked me about the Cirrus I was flying. We had a nice little chat, you know, to keep interlopers out of the pattern (just kidding). But the point is we talked and it all worked out.
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The way it should always work if everyone uses common senses, courtesy for each other and avoids letting their panties get bunched up ;)
 
After watching this thread, I've decided the safest way to approach and land is to fly downwind directly over the runway, then split-s over the numbers to land.
 
midwestpa24 said:
After watching this thread, I've decided the safest way to approach and land is to fly downwind directly over the runway, then split-s over the numbers to land.
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Nah, just pull the chute and now you have priority over everyone.
 
Very glad to read this thread. I had a situation come up a few weeks ago that I considered posting/asking about, but was hesitant to do so thinking I may have been at fault. Still not sure, actually, but since the waters seem to be a bit murky anyway, here goes...
I was approaching a local untowered field that has a pretty busy maintenance facilty onsite..traffic isn't usually nuts, but it's not uncommon to have a plane or two in the pattern. I was approaching on a 310 deg course from my home field, which put me directly on course to enter a left downwind for 13. Made my first call 10 miles out, then 5. Heard another plane advise they were turning left base 13, no other calls, no other aircraft visible by eyeball, but one showing up northeast of the field about 5 miles out via adsb in. Looking, but couldn't see it. I made another call at 1 mile, then advised I was on left downwind for 13 when I was almost abeam the opposite end (31) of the runway, all the while watching for the traffic blip that continued to get closer w/out making a call. She finally made a call ... "cessna xxx on a 45 for left downwind 13"... about the same time I saw her. Not at all a close call, but it would have been if one of us hadn't given way. I broke off to the right (still plenty of room to do so), and told her I'd do a 360 to give her some time. She got back on the mic and smugly said "It's always best to enter on a 45." Not "Thank you."

I didn't post because I know a 45 entry is preferred, and I always do the midfield-at-500-above-tpa entry, but this time I figured, with all the radio calls I made and heard, my ability to see the entire runway and traffic in the pattern, and the fact that my course put me on a perfect left downwind anyway, I'd be safe as long as I mad my intentions clear by radio (which I did many times) and in effect be IN the pattern before anyone entered on a 45 and cut me off.

No harm done, but I didn't appreciate the smugness. Was I wrong? If so, please tell me...always trying to do things right,
 
MuseChaser said:
Very glad to read this thread. I had a situation come up a few weeks ago that I considered posting/asking about, but was hesitant to do so thinking I may have been at fault. Still not sure, actually, but since the waters seem to be a bit murky anyway, here goes...
I was approaching a local untowered field that has a pretty busy maintenance facilty onsite..traffic isn't usually nuts, but it's not uncommon to have a plane or two in the pattern. I was approaching on a 310 deg course from my home field, which put me directly on course to enter a left downwind for 13. Made my first call 10 miles out, then 5. Heard another plane advise they were turning left base 13, no other calls, no other aircraft visible by eyeball, but one showing up northeast of the field about 5 miles out via adsb in. Looking, but couldn't see it. I made another call at 1 mile, then advised I was on left downwind for 13 when I was almost abeam the opposite end (31) of the runway, all the while watching for the traffic blip that continued to get closer w/out making a call. She finally made a call ... "cessna xxx on a 45 for left downwind 13"... about the same time I saw her. Not at all a close call, but it would have been if one of us hadn't given way. I broke off to the right (still plenty of room to do so), and told her I'd do a 360 to give her some time. She got back on the mic and smugly said "It's always best to enter on a 45." Not "Thank you."

I didn't post because I know a 45 entry is preferred, and I always do the midfield-at-500-above-tpa entry, but this time I figured, with all the radio calls I made and heard, my ability to see the entire runway and traffic in the pattern, and the fact that my course put me on a perfect left downwind anyway, I'd be safe as long as I mad my intentions clear by radio (which I did many times) and in effect be IN the pattern before anyone entered on a 45 and cut me off.

No harm done, but I didn't appreciate the smugness. Was I wrong? If so, please tell me...always trying to do things right,
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Personally, I think you were fine, and I agree the smug comment was uncalled for, and a "thanks" would have been.
 
MuseChaser said:
Very glad to read this thread. I had a situation come up a few weeks ago that I considered posting/asking about, but was hesitant to do so thinking I may have been at fault. Still not sure, actually, but since the waters seem to be a bit murky anyway, here goes...
I was approaching a local untowered field that has a pretty busy maintenance facilty onsite..traffic isn't usually nuts, but it's not uncommon to have a plane or two in the pattern. I was approaching on a 310 deg course from my home field, which put me directly on course to enter a left downwind for 13. Made my first call 10 miles out, then 5. Heard another plane advise they were turning left base 13, no other calls, no other aircraft visible by eyeball, but one showing up northeast of the field about 5 miles out via adsb in. Looking, but couldn't see it. I made another call at 1 mile, then advised I was on left downwind for 13 when I was almost abeam the opposite end (31) of the runway, all the while watching for the traffic blip that continued to get closer w/out making a call. She finally made a call ... "cessna xxx on a 45 for left downwind 13"... about the same time I saw her. Not at all a close call, but it would have been if one of us hadn't given way. I broke off to the right (still plenty of room to do so), and told her I'd do a 360 to give her some time. She got back on the mic and smugly said "It's always best to enter on a 45." Not "Thank you."

I didn't post because I know a 45 entry is preferred, and I always do the midfield-at-500-above-tpa entry, but this time I figured, with all the radio calls I made and heard, my ability to see the entire runway and traffic in the pattern, and the fact that my course put me on a perfect left downwind anyway, I'd be safe as long as I mad my intentions clear by radio (which I did many times) and in effect be IN the pattern before anyone entered on a 45 and cut me off.

No harm done, but I didn't appreciate the smugness. Was I wrong? If so, please tell me...always trying to do things right,
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Nope, not wrong. On the ground, I would have asked her where in the regulations it says that, and then mansplained the **** out of it to her.
 
MuseChaser said:
She got back on the mic and smugly said "It's always best to enter on a 45." Not "Thank you."
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And that right there is the problem. It isn't who enters the pattern how, its the people that have to be "right", and will cut someone off in the name of "right". Common courtesy has disappeared from society, not just in the traffic pattern.
 
midwestpa24 said:
And that right there is the problem. It isn't who enters the pattern how, its the people that have to be "right", and will cut someone off in the name of "right". Common courtesy has disappeared from society, not just in the traffic pattern.
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Sometimes true. But the traffic pattern isn't the place to try to fix the problem.
 
MuseChaser said:
I didn't post because I know a 45 entry is preferred...
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That's really all it comes down to. People have different preferences and depending on the situation, preferences will vary depending on who is doing the flying. There is however a special group of pilots who feel it's their duty to educate us on the importance of their preferences.
 
MuseChaser said:
Very glad to read this thread. I had a situation come up a few weeks ago that I considered posting/asking about, but was hesitant to do so thinking I may have been at fault. Still not sure, actually, but since the waters seem to be a bit murky anyway, here goes...
I was approaching a local untowered field that has a pretty busy maintenance facilty onsite..traffic isn't usually nuts, but it's not uncommon to have a plane or two in the pattern. I was approaching on a 310 deg course from my home field, which put me directly on course to enter a left downwind for 13. Made my first call 10 miles out, then 5. Heard another plane advise they were turning left base 13, no other calls, no other aircraft visible by eyeball, but one showing up northeast of the field about 5 miles out via adsb in. Looking, but couldn't see it. I made another call at 1 mile, then advised I was on left downwind for 13 when I was almost abeam the opposite end (31) of the runway, all the while watching for the traffic blip that continued to get closer w/out making a call. She finally made a call ... "cessna xxx on a 45 for left downwind 13"... about the same time I saw her. Not at all a close call, but it would have been if one of us hadn't given way. I broke off to the right (still plenty of room to do so), and told her I'd do a 360 to give her some time. She got back on the mic and smugly said "It's always best to enter on a 45." Not "Thank you."

I didn't post because I know a 45 entry is preferred, and I always do the midfield-at-500-above-tpa entry, but this time I figured, with all the radio calls I made and heard, my ability to see the entire runway and traffic in the pattern, and the fact that my course put me on a perfect left downwind anyway, I'd be safe as long as I mad my intentions clear by radio (which I did many times) and in effect be IN the pattern before anyone entered on a 45 and cut me off.

No harm done, but I didn't appreciate the smugness. Was I wrong? If so, please tell me...always trying to do things right,
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She should have turned for you and she should have been making calls. That said, you did the right thing and handled it well. I would have told her she should have made a call or two further out.
 
Salty said:
Sometimes true. But the traffic pattern isn't the place to try to fix the problem.
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I agree 100%. But barging into a pattern because you have the right of way instead of simply being courteous isn't fixing it either. The entire concept of VFR flying is "See and Avoid". If you "see" another aircraft that you will conflict with, instead of asserting your right of way, you could simply avoid the conflict. It isn't usually very hard. I've flown at many busy fly-ins, and shared many a busy pattern. I've had close calls. I've seen people do some crazy stuff in the traffic pattern. But at the end of the day, I saw the conflict, avoided it, and lived to fly another day. No need to get huffy, or assert your dominance on the radio or anywhere else. You may be right, but there is also such a thing as dead right.
 
EdFred said:
Nope, not wrong. On the ground, I would have asked her where in the regulations it says that, and then mansplained the **** out of it to her.
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Lol, I imagine would start something like this "Well listen here little lady...."
 
Thanks for the reassurances. I'm pretty non-confrontational and tend to be a "de-fuser" unless the situation truly calls for a physical response. Just glad to know I wasn't obviously in the wrong. I didn't look for her on the ground, but she didn't stick around or even come into the fbo. Wouldn't have brought it up even if she had.
 
MuseChaser said:
Thanks for the reassurances. I'm pretty non-confrontational and tend to be a "de-fuser" unless the situation truly calls for a physical response. Just glad to know I wasn't obviously in the wrong. I didn't look for her on the ground, but she didn't stick around or even come into the fbo. Wouldn't have brought it up even if she had.
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If she wants to use the "preferred" 45 she should really read up on it and see what else comes with it. Use her own argument against her.
 
GLDP said:
If you don’t see each other to begin with how in the world would you be able to see each other as you progress through the legs.
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Presenting the side of the airplane rather than the nose to the other or presenting the top of the wing during a bank affords a better chance than head-on, spinner to spinner at cruise speeds. Think two planes on base legs for opposite runways or one on final and the other on base.
 
MuseChaser said:
...no other aircraft visible by eyeball, but one showing up northeast of the field...She got back on the mic and smugly said "It's always best to enter on a 45."
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If she was northeast she didn't enter on a 45, she entered on a 90 (85, actually). So, maybe she was apologizing? Unless she had a fish finder too, she might have assumed you had been in the pattern.
 
dtuuri said:
Presenting the side of the airplane rather than the nose to the other or presenting the top of the wing during a bank affords a better chance than head-on, spinner to spinner at cruise speeds. Think two planes on base legs for opposite runways or one on final and the other on base.
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Obviously it’s easier to see a plane in a bank but you’d have to assume a lot of things here. Not landing into the sun, not being an overcast day and the plane blending into the clouds or surrounding terrain, etc. I know my eyeballs would have a much easier time seeing a plane within a mile or two, same altitude head on hopefully with a landing light while we both alter headings to the right than be on final approach and be looking a mile or two past the runway wondering if maybe that’s another plane out there and what they are doing.

dtuuri said:
If she was northeast she didn't enter on a 45, she entered on a 90 (85, actually). So, maybe she was apologizing? Unless she had a fish finder too, she might have assumed you had been in the pattern.
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This is why the 45 seems silly to me. Here is a guy clearly on downwind and instead of passing over 500 above to descend on the dead side, she comes up says that seems like 45 degrees, I’m joining downwind. Nobody can argue that even if it wasn’t actually 45. If you have no ATIS, no radio, nothing, how in the world do you have a clear picture of what’s going on? By passing over and joining at circuit height you 1) See the big picture outside of the circuit 2) check windsocks 3) get a free field inspection 4) join downwind predictably at one exact spot and 5) not blast 2 miles past the circuit turn around doing a teardrop and lose all the traffic you had in sight
 
EdFred said:
If she wants to use the "preferred" 45 she should really read up on it and see what else comes with it. Use her own argument against her.
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No. The last thing CTAF needs is this argument live on the air.
 
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