Fly In - day after reflection on idiots in pattern

dtuuri said:
It still isn't in the AIM, AFAIK, but he said it's been there 23 years. So... which takes precedence?
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My bad. Airplane Flying Handbook.

Still an old procedure, published by the FAA. Nothing new about it
 
dtuuri said:
It still isn't in the AIM, AFAIK, but he said it's been there 23 years. So... which takes precedence?
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I don't know about precedence, but the FAA's been teaching it. Does the AIM say not to do it?
 
Does calling other pilots idiots make you feel better about yourself?

What's a fly in? I'm new to this pilot thing. I've only held a certificate for 26 years and I've never been to one. Doesn't sound like I've missed much. Do the holier than thous outnumber the idiots? How do they know who's who?
 
Stephen Shore said:
I have attended and landed at several fly-ins - including Oshkosh. Yesterday I attended a local fly-in at Rusk County Airport (KRFI) in NE Texas. What I saw in that traffic pattern bordered on insanity and alot of just plain rudeness. And it almost ended tragically for a friend of mine flying Young Eagle flights.

It began for me by approaching from the north with runway 17 as the active. I overflew the airport @ 1500'+ feet over pattern altitude in order to fly approximately 5 miles south of the airport in order to turn around and come back and work my way in to a left downwind for 17. There were 8-10 planes in the pattern or near the airport at the time. I purposely chose NOT to do a straight in or to enter the downwind from a circling / 45 degree approach because of the several airplanes already on downwind. Better to fly well past the airport and come back and try for a straight entry into a left downwind.

In order to make a long story short, it took me three attempts to go from downwind to base because of several airplanes attempting to break into the downwind at pattern altitude on 45 degree entries from either abeam the 35 numbers or even at mid field. Most were not even making any calls - just attempting to fly into the downwind leg. I broke off two downwind legs at mid field and on my third attempt finally made it to a base leg and landed, even though I had someone come in right behind me on base and try to enter the pattern at that point. I watched him closely (on my panel and saw him exit the pattern) and made it to final and finally landed.

A friend of mine flying Young Eagles had a Comanche landing gear suddenly appear in his windscreen about 400' above the ground on short final to land. He diverted quickly to the right (he could not climb or descend for obvious reasons) and narrowly missed being killed and having two youngsters go down with him.

After he finally landed, he confronted the Comanche pilot who matter of factly stated that since he was approaching from the north he simply decided to make a straight in approach. That makes great sense when there are no other airplanes in the pattern. But when there is a fly-in and obviously several planes on downwind, base, and final, you just don't do a straight in approach to a non-towered field hosting a well attended fly in.

I just got back from a fly-in in Fredricksburg and did not notice problems like this one.

I emailed the airport manager and suggested that next year they publish a fly-in approach and traffic pattern in a NOTAM similar to what I have seen at other fly-ins.

Is this common at these fly-ins? I don't attend very many (Oshkosh every year but obviously that is controlled and well managed) but I was just amazed at how many pilots did NOT make any calls in the pattern and how many were just intent on "cutting" into the pattern in whatever way best served their interest. Maybe I just need to limit myself to larger fly-ins that have published approaches - but maybe this was just a bad day?
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I don’t know what it is about fly-ins, but they attack a lot pilots who use non standard procedures. My best guess it is pilots who have flown a long time forgot or never knew proper procedures. Or maybe they are just in a hurry for a pancake or hotdog.
 
Stewartb said:
Does calling other pilots idiots make you feel better about yourself?

What's a fly in? I'm new to this pilot thing. I've only held a certificate for 26 years and I've never been to one. Doesn't sound like I've missed much. Do the holier than thous outnumber the idiots? How do they know who's who?
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https://www.funplacestofly.com/aviation-events.asp

I don’t think they have fly-ins in Alaska.
 
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I could say the same for you guys. I don't own airplanes to do fly-ins. I do fly-outs. Knowing there isn't another human within 10-50-100 miles is a great feeling.
 
Stewartb said:
I could say the same for you guys. I don't own airplanes to do fly-ins. I do fly-outs. Knowing there isn't another human within 10-50-100 miles is a great feeling.
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or in other words, you are anti social.
 
I drove to the Hilltop Lakes Fly In. They had two guys in a makeshift scissor lift control tower directing traffic, and 5 guys on the ground with orange vests controlling parking. I met some nice pilots there.
 
Squirrelfury said:
I, too, was at the Ranger fly-in yesterday, and wasn't that upset. Through their airport website, Facebook postings, and direct E-mailing, the fly-in organizer had suggested some special traffic pattern etiquette and abbreviated position reporting phraseology to accommodate the expected high traffic flow. There had to be well over a hundred aircraft on the field by noon, ranging from antique biplanes to light twins, helicopters, and De Havilland Beavers.

Every other pilot that I spoke to thought that the participants had done a pretty credible job of making the busy pattern work. By and large, people looked, talked, and yielded right-of-way when necessary in order to make things work. I had to make two attempts to land, since the base-to-final pattern got a little too jammed-up for my taste during the first attempt. But I was happy to try again, because -- like was said, it WAS "... good to hear GA is alive and well in TX".



I wonder if this isn't the cause of a lot of the complaints.
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Quick question, when you write “I had to make two attempts to land, since the base-to-final pattern got a little too jammed-up for my taste during the first attempt.” could you write what you did to did when you brok off the first attempt? You mention the base to final being crowded, so do you then fly base to upwind, crosswind and back to downwind, or break off out of the pattern off to the outside and circle back to join it again?


The OP also wrote “I broke off two downwind legs at mid field and on my third attempt finally made it to a base leg and landed...”

if the OP also (in case it was a different from squirrelfury’s answer) also mention how he broke off? Are there several ways that are safe or recommended?
 
Never had a (serious) problem with traffic at a fly-in...but I have had problems with people "perceiving" a problem.

I landed at a fly-in behind an interesting experimental. Once on the ground, I went to the experimental to meet the owner. As I walked up, the owner was telling someone how he had 6 near-misses while flying from downwind, to base, to final. I was a 1/2 mile behind the guy in the pattern, I didn't see a single plane, and I told him that. He replied, "You obviously don't have ADSB, because if you did, you would have seen all the planes I was seeing on my screen". Sigh.
I flew to another fly-in in loose formation with a friend, with him taking lead and making the radio calls on CTAF for both of us, as I listened. We entered the pattern and as we were approaching our turn point from base to final, a twin cut across in front of us on a long straight in approach that neither of us heard on the radio. Once on the ground, the owner of the twin came up to us to chew us out, yelling that we weren't on the radio and we should of heard him. My friend asked him, "What's the common traffic frequency here?" The guy responded with the wrong frequency, and when we pointed out that he was wrong, he stormed off saying he was getting his facility directory to prove us wrong. I give the guy credit that he came back and apologized.

With the troubles with GA these days, we all should try harder to get along.
 
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Stephen Shore said:
Is this common at these fly-ins? I don't attend very many (Oshkosh every year but obviously that is controlled and well managed) but I was just amazed at how many pilots did NOT make any calls in the pattern and how many were just intent on "cutting" into the pattern in whatever way best served their interest. Maybe I just need to limit myself to larger fly-ins that have published approaches - but maybe this was just a bad day?
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Selfish *******s will always be selfish *******s, no matter what vehicle they're using.
 
LongRoadBob said:
Quick question, when you write “I had to make two attempts to land, since the base-to-final pattern got a little too jammed-up for my taste during the first attempt.” could you write what you did to did when you brok off the first attempt? You mention the base to final being crowded, so do you then fly base to upwind, crosswind and back to downwind, or break off out of the pattern off to the outside and circle back to join it again?


The OP also wrote “I broke off two downwind legs at mid field and on my third attempt finally made it to a base leg and landed...”

if the OP also (in case it was a different from squirrelfury’s answer) also mention how he broke off? Are there several ways that are safe or recommended?
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In my case (OP), I broke off by going into an immediate climbing bank to the left towards the field (remember - I had planes coming in at me on a 45 from my right and I was not sure how they would react). The safest place to be in a situation like this (several planes at pattern altitude on a downwind or trying to break into a downwind on a 45 to my right) is to be directly over the field at well over pattern altitude. So that is what I did.

In regard to fly-ins, I readily admit that I usually have only flown into large, highly managed "fly-ins" such as EAA Airventure or AOPA fly ins. However, I have flown to a handful of these smaller ones over the years. I think what got me was my buddy flying the Young Eagles and at 400' AGL on short final had a set of Comanche landing gear suddenly appear 25' over his windshield - this was the guy that decided to come in on a long final and not even attempt to merge into the established pattern or make calls.

From some of the responses to my original post, I kind of have a better understanding of some of the behavior that I saw this past weekend. It is starting to make sense.
 
Stephen Shore said:
In my case (OP), I broke off by going into an immediate climbing bank to the left towards the field (remember - I had planes coming in at me on a 45 from my right and I was not sure how they would react). The safest place to be in a situation like this (several planes at pattern altitude on a downwind or trying to break into a downwind on a 45 to my right) is to be directly over the field at well over pattern altitude. So that is what I did.

In regard to fly-ins, I readily admit that I usually have only flown into large, highly managed "fly-ins" such as EAA Airventure or AOPA fly ins. However, I have flown to a handful of these smaller ones over the years. I think what got me was my buddy flying the Young Eagles and at 400' AGL on short final had a set of Comanche landing gear suddenly appear 25' over his windshield - this was the guy that decided to come in on a long final and not even attempt to merge into the established pattern or make calls.

From some of the responses to my original post, I kind of have a better understanding of some of the behavior that I saw this past weekend. It is starting to make sense.
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Yes, we're all a bunch of idiots. Sell your plane, buy a boat. You'll be much happier.
 
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Stephen Shore said:
In order to make a long story short, it took me three attempts to go from downwind to base because of several airplanes attempting to break into the downwind at pattern altitude on 45 degree entries from either abeam the 35 numbers or even at mid field. Most were not even making any calls - just attempting to fly into the downwind leg. I broke off two downwind legs at mid field and on my third attempt finally made it to a base leg and landed, even though I had someone come in right behind me on base and try to enter the pattern at that point. I watched him closely (on my panel and saw him exit the pattern) and made it to final and finally landed.
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I would posit that your "breaking off the downwind" probably caused more problems than it helped. Those merging into the downwind would be expecting you to continue in the downwind, rather than take some rash, unexpected course of action.
 
Stephen Shore said:
In my case (OP), I broke off by going into an immediate climbing bank to the left towards the field (remember - I had planes coming in at me on a 45 from my right and I was not sure how they would react). The safest place to be in a situation like this (several planes at pattern altitude on a downwind or trying to break into a downwind on a 45 to my right) is to be directly over the field at well over pattern altitude. So that is what I did.
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This would have put you climbing directly into someone who entered the airport area the way you stated that you did at 1500 over pattern altitude midfield. I repeat my opinion that you created more problems than you solved by reacting rashly. Had you simply kept your eyes open and adjusted to others entering the flow of traffic, it would have been simpler for you and everyone else. Having some guy breaking in and out of the pattern randomly would cause me to start a thread on POA. :D

I'm curious what you said in that radio call. lol
 
Stephen Shore said:
In my case (OP), I broke off by going into an immediate climbing bank to the left towards the field (remember - I had planes coming in at me on a 45 from my right and I was not sure how they would react). The safest place to be in a situation like this (several planes at pattern altitude on a downwind or trying to break into a downwind on a 45 to my right) is to be directly over the field at well over pattern altitude. So that is what I did.

In regard to fly-ins, I readily admit that I usually have only flown into large, highly managed "fly-ins" such as EAA Airventure or AOPA fly ins. However, I have flown to a handful of these smaller ones over the years. I think what got me was my buddy flying the Young Eagles and at 400' AGL on short final had a set of Comanche landing gear suddenly appear 25' over his windshield - this was the guy that decided to come in on a long final and not even attempt to merge into the established pattern or make calls.

From some of the responses to my original post, I kind of have a better understanding of some of the behavior that I saw this past weekend. It is starting to make sense.
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Thanks. So you climbed, turned (assume upwind) and then are above the PA, and then?
How did you join back up from that point?

I appreciate the info, am a little unsure about that aspect, when on abandons the pattern for a new attempt.
 
PaulS said:
If I heard 8 people in an uncontrolled pattern, I would stay clear until it calmed down a little. Really shouldn't take more than a few minutes.
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Unless they are all "breaking out of the pattern and trying again" because the other guy entered on a 45 into the downwind midfield. :confused:
 
Seems that one of the figures (and the stupidest one) posted above is in absolute and direct contradiction with 14CFR91.126 (assuming left traffic)
(§91.126 Operating on or in the vicinity of an airport in Class G airspace.)
(b) Direction of turns. When approaching to land at an airport without an operating control tower in Class G airspace—
(1) Each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of that airplane to the left unless the airport displays approved light signals or visual markings indicating that turns should be made to the right, in which case the pilot must make all turns to the right;

Also note that it doesn't say just the turns in the traffic pattern, but in the vicinity.

Please tell me how entering on the 45 and making a RIGHT turn into the pattern is the same as making a left turn?

What's also stupid about the 45 entry: Lets spend all this time approaching the airport, getting a visual on a bunch of planes in the pattern, put it all together in our heads, and then turn our back to the ***-**** airport losing a visual on everything that's going on. There has been certificate action against pilots who made a right to final within 5 miles, and yet the FAA in all their "wisdom" says to do exactly that while even CLOSER to the airport. And we have idiots defending the practice. (Just keeping in theme with the thread title)
 
Again - no calls from anyone attempting to break in on the downwind and air space above the field was clear both visually and on the panel. I was not sure if they saw me or what they were going to do. You always fly away from converging traffic to the clear space. I get it if they are directly converging - that makes the decision easier on the direction to bail out. Maybe I did the wrong thing by a climbing left turn, but that seemed like the right choice at the time. The two planes in question were on a direct path to me from my right. Just did not want to turn that way.

I definitely have a better understanding of why this chaos happened. Thanks.
 
Stephen Shore said:
Again - no calls from anyone attempting to break in on the downwind and air space above the field was clear both visually and on the panel. I was not sure if they saw me or what they were going to do. You always fly away from converging traffic to the clear space. I get it if they are directly converging - that makes the decision easier on the direction to bail out. Maybe I did the wrong thing by a climbing left turn, but that seemed like the right choice at the time. The two planes in question were on a direct path to me from my right. Just did not want to turn that way.
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You knew this was going to turn into a "my pattern entry is better than your pattern entry" slapfight, right? You did the right thing when you thought there was a risk of collision by removing yourself from the area as you saw fit.

I definitely have a better understanding of why this chaos happened. Thanks.
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Yes, because selfish people will be selfish.
 
Note, it doesn’t say you must make only left turns in the vicinity, it says you must make left turns when approaching to land.

i fly out of a fairly busy non-towered field. The only issue I’ve seen comes from impatience, usually people cutting off long downwinds by turning base out of order.

the teardrop entry was in my 2009 AIM. It isn’t new.

BTW, whose idea was it to hold a flyin in conjunction with a YE event? (Or vice versa).
 
Lindberg said:
I don't know about precedence, but the FAA's been teaching it. Does the AIM say not to do it?
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The AIM doesn't say "not" to do a lot of things. The Airplane Flying Handbook does say to follow the AIM:

"It is essential for persons using this handbook to become familiar with and apply the pertinent parts of 14 CFR and the Aeronautical Information Manual (AIM)."
​
 
bflynn said:
the teardrop entry was in my 2009 AIM.
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The 2009 AIM is one of my most recent versions ( :p ) and it is NOT in there, I just went through it page by page (Chapter 4, Airport Operations).
 
Salty said:
Unless they are all "breaking out of the pattern and trying again" because the other guy entered on a 45 into the downwind midfield. :confused:
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In that case maybe it would be better to just come back another day
 
One more thing....I really have a great appreciation of ADSB traffic that is now available in the cockpit. I admit to being old - 56 years old and I got my PPL back in 1981 when I was 17 and while the instrumentation was good for the time, it pales to what I have in my panel now. And yes, as it was inferred in earlier posts, I fly mostly for business under an IFR flight plan into larger controlled airports (mostly it seems Houston). So I generally have ATC calling out traffic for me on any given trip.

The new panel that I just installed earlier this year in my Commander was great for something like this fly-in. I realize that not all aircraft are equipped yet with ADSB out capability, but as we are getting closer to the January 1 mandate I can definitely tell a difference in how many "targets" I am seeing on my panel. That capability really helped with situational awareness on a day like it was for this fly-in (VFR but hazy in the morning).

Again, thanks for all of the sincere input including the posters that did not agree with my opinion of the situation. I do have a better understanding of some of the flying behavior that I experienced. thanks.
 
Weekend Warrior said:
Yes, we're all a bunch of idiots. Sell your plane, buy a boat. You'll be much happier.
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Hah! You should see Barnegat Bay in NJ on a nice summer day!

I flew into the Simsbury (CT) fly-in a couple of weeks ago. It's a CTAF field, but they had published approach procedures, and all pilots were requested to contact Bradley approach for sequencing, going to CTAF when they had the field in sight. Though the pattern was busy, I had to go around when the chopper in front of me sat on the runway instead of moving over to the designated area. My biggest complaint is the pilots flying downwind and turning base so far away they could hardly be said to be in the pattern.
 
bflynn said:
Note, it doesn’t say you must make only left turns in the vicinity, it says you must make left turns when approaching to land.

i fly out of a fairly busy non-towered field. The only issue I’ve seen comes from impatience, usually people cutting off long downwinds by turning base out of order.

the teardrop entry was in my 2009 AIM. It isn’t new.

BTW, whose idea was it to hold a flyin in conjunction with a YE event? (Or vice versa).
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So people going to the fly in weren't approaching to land? Got it. *mckayla maroney image here*

Departing the area you can make a right turn out but everything inbound is left turns. See the certificate action.
 
And if you are at an airport with no taxiway and have to taxi back to exit, some doing T&Gs, some full stops....what a mess.


Tom
 
Stephen Shore said:
One more thing....I really have a great appreciation of ADSB traffic that is now available in the cockpit. I admit to being old - 56 years old and I got my PPL back in 1981 when I was 17 and while the instrumentation was good for the time, it pales to what I have in my panel now. And yes, as it was inferred in earlier posts, I fly mostly for business under an IFR flight plan into larger controlled airports (mostly it seems Houston). So I generally have ATC calling out traffic for me on any given trip.

The new panel that I just installed earlier this year in my Commander was great for something like this fly-in. I realize that not all aircraft are equipped yet with ADSB out capability, but as we are getting closer to the January 1 mandate I can definitely tell a difference in how many "targets" I am seeing on my panel. That capability really helped with situational awareness on a day like it was for this fly-in (VFR but hazy in the morning).

Again, thanks for all of the sincere input including the posters that did not agree with my opinion of the situation. I do have a better understanding of some of the flying behavior that I experienced. thanks.
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Adsb is awesome, but IMO it has no use while you’re in the pattern. It can’t tell you anything (that you can act on immediately) that your eyes outside can’t tell you better and faster when flying slow in the confines of the airport pattern. No matter how good you are at video games, it takes time for your eyes to re-focus, your brain to see what’s on the screen and then it still does no good if you don’t look outside and see where it really is. There is a delay in adsb, there are errors. It’s simply not precise or up to date enough to waste precious seconds looking at it instead of looking outside at the real world.

JMO
 
EdFred said:
So people going to the fly in weren't approaching to land? Got it. *mckayla maroney image here*

Departing the area you can make a right turn out but everything inbound is left turns. See the certificate action.
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See 2019 AIM, page 816. 45 degree entry entry, which requires a right turn to join a left pattern is what is depicted.
 
Hang 4 said:
See 2019 AIM, page 816. 45 degree entry entry, which requires a right turn to join a left pattern is what is depicted.
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Already addressed. Read my previous post. Required? Oh, the AIM is regulatory now, and supersedes actual regulations? Huh. Whodathunk.

Maybe read everything I posted in the thread before yapping.
 
LongRoadBob said:
Quick question, when you write “I had to make two attempts to land, since the base-to-final pattern got a little too jammed-up for my taste during the first attempt.” could you write what you did to did when you brok off the first attempt? You mention the base to final being crowded, so do you then fly base to upwind, crosswind and back to downwind, or break off out of the pattern off to the outside and circle back to join it again?
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The latter. I basically extended my Downwind leg until I was clear of the immediate airfield area, then circled-around and re-entered Downwind from a 45º direction.

I think that the key to the good traffic flow at Ranger over the weekend (and at any such gaggle) was communications and simple courtesy. More flying experience improves a pilot's situational awareness and makes it easier for him to communicate and fit into a complex traffic situation. Unfortunately, it also sometimes produces "one of those guys" who insist upon lawyering the language in the AIM ("it's MY right-of-way ... damn it!!"), forcing other airplanes to scatter out of his way, never mind the consequences for the bigger traffic picture on that particular day.

"Working it out" with other pilots can be part of what makes flying fun.
 
EdFred said:
Each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of that airplane to the left unless the airport displays approved light signals or visual markings indicating that turns should be made to the right, in which case the pilot must make all turns to the right;
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The markings depict the direction of turns in the pattern, not the direction to turn to enter the pattern. Not sure how all the FAA published information that depicts pattern entry would be wrong. Please explain how to safely and legally enter a pattern without at least one turn in a different direction? Think you are putting too much emphasis on "in the vicinity" - when does vicinity begin and end?
 
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