FLy a heading of..

TimRF79

TimRF79

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Tim
Was flying under the hood with a safety pilot and VFR flight following.
ATC tells me to fly a heading of 240 degrees.
I fly at the heading for about 3 minutes when ATC comes back and tells me again to fly a 240 heading.
I respond that I am, when ATC tells they show me at 270 degrees.
Quick look at my 430 shows that my ground track was 270.
Needless to say I got all confused.

When ATC gives you a heading is that a ground track you are to fly?
 
No. Heading means heading. The controller probably didn’t take into account enough for the winds. When they give you a heading they’ll take into account winds.
 
jordane93 said:
No. Heading means heading. The controller probably didn’t take into account enough for the winds. When they give you a heading they’ll take into account winds.
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This.

You are to fly the requested heading. Like Jordan said, it was probably just ATC’s mess up.
 
I find a lot of magnetic compasses in airplanes are quite terrible and the Compass correction cards are often just as bad.

Try this excercise... assuming you have a good directional Gyro

Line up on the runway and set your Directional gyro to the runway heading. On a smooth air day go and fly each 30 degree heading on the Directional Gyro. Note the reading on the Magnetic compass at each 30 degrees of heading. After 360 degrees of turn check to make sure the last reading matches the 1st reading to confirm your DG is not processing excessively. Then compare these numbers to your compass correction card. You may find you need a new compass correction card or adjustments to your compass. If not then you know if your compass is accurate or not.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
What was being used for a heading indicator? If using an old style DG, is it possible it processed?
 
I had confirmed heading to the compass, according to the 430 we had 90knt winds (hence a 240 heading became a 270 ground track)
 
brcase said:
I find a lot of magnetic compasses in airplanes are quite terrible and the Compass correction cards are often just as bad.

Try this excercise... assuming you have a good directional Gyro

Line up on the runway and set your Directional gyro to the runway heading. On a smooth air day go and fly each 30 degree heading on the Directional Gyro. Note the reading on the Magnetic compass at each 30 degrees of heading. After 360 degrees of turn check to make sure the last reading matches the 1st reading to confirm your DG is not processing excessively. Then compare these numbers to your compass correction card. You may find you need a new compass correction card or adjustments to your compass. If not then you know if your compass is accurate or not.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
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Just remember that a runway number is to the nearest 10 degrees so you’d have to use the actual published heading and not the runway number.
 
jordane93 said:
No. Heading means heading. The controller probably didn’t take into account enough for the winds. When they give you a heading they’ll take into account winds.
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What? Controllers don't know what the wind is. They give a heading and if that doesn't work, they'll change it. It isn't rocket surgery.

The controller should realize that AFTER the OP came back and said that he was indeed on a 240 heading but it would help the controller if the OP said that there was a pretty stiff crosswind from the left.
 
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I find that if my DG seems to be precessing I can correct it by moving the phone, stratux, iPad, and other crap away from the compass.

Okay, this isn't true. I don't have any of that stuff (including DG and compass) in my plane.
 
Timbeck2 said:
What? Controllers don't know what the wind is. They give a heading and if that doesn't work, they'll change it. It isn't rocket surgery.

The controller should realize that AFTER the OP came back and said that he was indeed on a 240 heading but it would help the controller if the OP said that there was a pretty stiff crosswind from the left.
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I always thought you guys could see a wind readout down low.
 
I think they have a fairly good idea where the winds are. Especially if they have been working traffic for more than half an hour.
 
jordane93 said:
I always thought you guys could see a wind readout down low.
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We know what the wind is according to the ATIS broadcast is at each airport we serve but that could be an hour old. Tower controllers see real time wind but from sensors on the ground at each end of each runway. We don't see winds aloft. Geez guys, we're good but we can't see everything. ;)
 
jordane93 said:
I always thought you guys could see a wind readout down low.
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The only wind available to controllers is from 30 ft. above ground level at an airport. It helps for takeoffs and landings, but the wind at altitude can be significantly different, so really no use to a radar controller.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
I think they have a fairly good idea where the winds are. Especially if they have been working traffic for more than half an hour.
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PAR controllers especially know the wind's effect on aircraft. We have what's called a "hold on" which is the heading which holds an aircraft on centerline which may or may not be the runway heading according to the wind but that too can change at a moment's notice. Like I said before, if one heading doesn't take you in the direction we need, we change it to something that will.
 
jordane93 said:
I always thought you guys could see a wind readout down low.
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Depends on your facility. Towers don't have much use for this information so they don't have it. At our TRACON we can see the winds aloft at specific points and attitudes throughout our airspace (surface up to 10,000-15,000 depending on location). Even considering we have access to this, the average TRACON controller knows the winds quite well from what was briefed by the controller we relieved, seeing what ground speed/track all the planes are doing in the different directions/speed's assigned and verifying it all after the first 5 minutes of vectoring planes/running a final.

To the OP, either your compass/dg was inaccurate or the controller wasn't understanding the winds aloft at the time for some reason.
 
But to clarify Kevin and take this based on the fact that all controllers have different equipment sometimes...you guys actually have a readout for winds aloft on the scope or a monitor nearby? That would be cool but as you said, towers (which I work) have no use for it.
 
TimRF79 said:
I had confirmed heading to the compass, according to the 430 we had 90knt winds (hence a 240 heading became a 270 ground track)
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Ok. You confirmed heading to compass. What were using to fly heading? Vacuum DG? Some heading indicator driven by an AHRS, like say a G5? We’re there many other planes on the frequency who seemed to be getting vectors? Was he having trouble with any one else’s headings?
 
Radar Contact said:
Depends on your facility. Towers don't have much use for this information so they don't have it. At our TRACON we can see the winds aloft at specific points and attitudes throughout our airspace (surface up to 10,000-15,000 depending on location). Even considering we have access to this, the average TRACON controller knows the winds quite well from what was briefed by the controller we relieved, seeing what ground speed/track all the planes are doing in the different directions/speed's assigned and verifying it all after the first 5 minutes of vectoring planes/running a final.

To the OP, either your compass/dg was inaccurate or the controller wasn't understanding the winds aloft at the time for some reason.
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Do you ever just ask the pilot? I did this a lot when working Center. Not sure exactly where on the panel they looked to get it but their response was instant.
 
luvflyin said:
Do you ever just ask the pilot? I did this a lot when working Center. Not sure exactly where on the panel they looked to get it but their response was instant.
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Based at ATL I heard ATL Center and Approach request this from airliners frequently, even other Centers and Approaches as well.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Just remember that a runway number is to the nearest 10 degrees so you’d have to use the actual published heading and not the runway number.
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Yup. Sometimes it’s more than that. Some airports change the number because they’ve run out of L’s, R’s and C’s. There’s one somewhere where they used a number more than to the nearest 10 degrees even though there were only 2 runways. Never could figure out why
 
ATL’s 5 parallel runways are 28, 27L, 27R, 26L, 26R. If they build another one reckon it’ll be 29. :)
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
holy crap, how high were you?
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We flew at 2,000 ft, just off the coast.
Ground winds at the airport has gone to 14 gusting 21

luvflyin said:
Ok. You confirmed heading to compass. What were using to fly heading? Vacuum DG? Some heading indicator driven by an AHRS, like say a G5? We’re there many other planes on the frequency who seemed to be getting vectors? Was he having trouble with any one else’s headings?
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Using a Vacuum DG for heading, i now it was regressing, hence I verified the 240 heading to compass.
There was little general aviation going on at this, other planes where all heavies on the frequency
 
TimRF79 said:
We flew at 2,000 ft, just off the coast.
Ground winds at the airport has gone to 14 gusting 21


Using a Vacuum DG for heading, i now it was regressing, hence I verified the 240 heading to compass.
There was little general aviation going on at this, other planes where all heavies on the frequency
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Are you sure you had been straight and level for a few seconds before making the comparison between Compass and DG?
 
Timbeck2 said:
But to clarify Kevin and take this based on the fact that all controllers have different equipment sometimes...you guys actually have a readout for winds aloft on the scope or a monitor nearby? That would be cool but as you said, towers (which I work) have no use for it.
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Sorry for the delay Tim. Yeah, it is a separate monitor near the arrival wall that has several points in our airspace and several different altitudes at those points and displays the real time winds aloft at those locations/altitudes.

I'm guessing most places don't have it but I'm not sure how many other TRACON's do. Probably at least NY, ATL and DFW?
 
luvflyin said:
Do you ever just ask the pilot? I did this a lot when working Center. Not sure exactly where on the panel they looked to get it but their response was instant.
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We do from time to time. The modern airliners seem to have it easily accessible. Usually just early in the morning for the first rush if you're not sure. As the day develops, people include it in the briefings each time you get the position. (I know you know...just reiterating for those that don't). :)

More often than not you'll hear from the pilots if we are landing to the east because the winds aloft are usually still strong out of the west and the break is around 2500-3000. Winds here are 50-60-xx on the tail... having trouble getting down... spacing okay on the guy we are following... etc.
 
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Timbeck2 said:
Geez guys, we're good but we can't see everything.
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I’m not so sure about that. ATC seems to know when I take a bite of a candy bar. They invariably call out to me so I need to respond, and I have my mouth full. :eek:
 
STARS has a vector feature. That’s all a controller needs. :)
 
TimRF79 said:
Was flying under the hood with a safety pilot and VFR flight following.
ATC tells me to fly a heading of 240 degrees.
I fly at the heading for about 3 minutes when ATC comes back and tells me again to fly a 240 heading.
I respond that I am, when ATC tells they show me at 270 degrees.
Quick look at my 430 shows that my ground track was 270.
Needless to say I got all confused.

When ATC gives you a heading is that a ground track you are to fly?
Click to expand...
 
ATC will give you the headings to track the course they want want the plane on. Flying the given heading as a track is a no no.

Was your DG off 30?
 
I asked about this during training and was told the distance between the runways dictates whether they can be L/R/C.

Examples:
KFTW has parallel runways but they are too far apart so one is 16/34 and the other 17/35. Both are 165 mag/172 true. http://airnav.com/airport/kftw
KFWS has parallel runways that are close enough so 17R/35L and 17L/35R. Both are 173mag/180 true. http://airnav.com/airport/kfws
 
90kt? Hell id run out of gas if i had to head into that if my destination was more than about 5nm away! Lol
 
No. Absolutely not. You fly the assigned heading. ATC will correct for wind if necessary. In fact divergent separation is expressly based on that.

tex
 
I've had a departure controller vector me all over and then tell me I needed my DG looked at, based on what she thought the headings should be. I let her know I was matched directly to my compass and had been checking even more often than usual because of all the vectoring. It was probably a substantial crosswind, though I was IMC and had passengers, so I wasn't about to fiddle with the 650 to figure out the component.
 
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