Florida Fatal crash after issue with AP ?

1st time he ever flew the plane? RIP
 
After listening to the ATC conversation where he was told he busted the Bravo by climbing into it... My first guess would be a serious aft CG loading, or control lock still in or maybe it was a runaway trim / struck autopilot..

Whatever,,,, the plane sure looks pretty bent from hitting the water... Must have been a straight in impact.:sad::sad::sad:
 
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Stingray Don said:
I wonder if he tried pulling the CB when the AP failed to disengage.
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Even more reliable is Master OFF, get plane under control. A is vastly more important than N & C.
 
Stingray Don said:
I wonder if he tried pulling the CB when the AP failed to disengage.
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It sounded almost like he resigned, when you start asking ground how to operate the airplane you are in deep. Wonder if he broke a control cable or something trying to over power the AP or maybe like N801bh suggested and some form of control lock was in? In any event condolences to the families.

Good on the part of the pilot who chimed in in an attempt to help, seemed like a solid suggestion to me should have worked?:dunno:
 
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I've yet to meet a autopilot I couldn't overpower, especially in a "this might be it" type situation and especially in a smaller plane like this.



RIP
 
Kudos to the other pilot who tried to help the poor souls on board the stricken plane.

He did his best.
 
Not the first autopilot servo someone thought the nut on the slip clutch should be tight.
 
James331 said:
I've yet to meet a autopilot I couldn't overpower, especially in a "this might be it" type situation and especially in a smaller plane like this.



RIP
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It might not have been an AP issue, he may have had something else going on and misdiagnosed it. I'm hoping he tried to pull the breaker. Killing the power should have helped that's why I'm wondering if it wasn't something else.
 
James331 said:
I've yet to meet a autopilot I couldn't overpower, especially in a "this might be it" type situation and especially in a smaller plane like this.

RIP
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This.

And what is "flying too high after take off"?
 
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brien23 said:
Not the first autopilot servo someone thought the nut on the slip clutch should be tight.
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Does the autopilot drive the elevator , or the trim tab :dunno::dunno::dunno:..

at 1:25 into the video, the pitch trim is set pretty much full nose up.:confused:
 
Can you imagine being the guy on the radio trying to help him? It'd weigh on my conscience not knowing if I caused him to crash. :nonod:
 
That's what I would have told him.
 
First thought on hearing the video was trim not set correctly or malfunctioned.

Not to pile on, but if you can't figure out how to turn off the autopilot, you shouldn't be flying the airplane. It's normally an item on the pre-start checklist too.
 
N801BH said:
Does the autopilot drive the elevator , or the trim tab :dunno::dunno::dunno:..

at 1:25 into the video, the pitch trim is set pretty much full nose up.:confused:
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Electric trim malfunction? - take more effort to overcome than AP?
 
wrbix said:
Electric trim malfunction? - take more effort to overcome than AP?
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Depends, fighting a runaway and stuck full stop trim does take more muscle than overpowering a servo IMO.

There have been a few stories of small women and very small men taking off in Cessna 206 sized aircraft with near full up trim from landing, not being able to force the yoke forward and retrim and going into a severe nose up attitude, low level stall, crash.

For me it's been a workout, but never been something I couldn't overcome.
 
If the plane pitches up and you can't control it with elevator you need to bank...a lot. Get the nose down and do it NOW.
 
Captain said:
If the plane pitches up and you can't control it with elevator you need to bank...a lot. Get the nose down and do it NOW.
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Than what? Won't it just pitch up again?
 
yeah, that plane went straight in.
All auto pilots are required to be able to be overpowered by medium force, 40 pounds or so - which will exhaust you sooner or later depending on your level of fitness.
In the video of the plane being recovered the trim tab on the right elevator looks to be slightly pitched down - which would pitch the plane up - but not extreme from what I can see and that current tab position might be due to a mechanical or spring interconnect driven by the elevator position.
Experienced Beech mechanics might weigh in on this.
The elevator is hanging a bit below level which makes it less likely that the gust lock was in.
They went NORDO telling me the pilot did turn off the Master (likely).
I can't predict what the pitch of the airplane would do at that instant since I don't know the servo coupling to the flight controls, if the AP was even the problem, etc..
But likely the control became impossible at the time of turning off the master - or shortly after - and prevented him from getting back on the radio.

Let the guessing begin -
If he had undone his seatbelt to lean way over under the panel on the passenger side looking for the AP breaker switch prior to the discussion of the master switch and then simply turned off the master and had a resultant extreme pitch down due to having the yoke hard forward at the instant the AP uncoupled he might have become incapacitated/injured (sheer guessing)

If the pitch control was mechanically damaged or jammed in the first place it may have failed totally as soon as the autopilot uncoupled (assuming it was coupled in the first place, et. yadda yadda) -
Or the elevator control might have finally come apart during the time the master was off and pitched the plane hard down and all they could do was scream.

I agree with the impression that the guy was not properly checked out in the systems of that plane.
And even then, if the plane was pitching hard up and he was straining to press the yoke forward, simply pulling the power back to idle would have unloaded the yoke considerably and then he could play with the power setting while he worked his way back to the airport.

There is gonna be lots more to the story before it is finished.
 
autopilot kill switch
autopilot/trim power switch
a/p/trim breaker
avionics master switch
master switch
overpower
what else?
 
Maybe, if he was fighting the autopilot, it trimmed itself against his control inputs, making the situation worse? I guess I don't know if the accident airplane would have had electric trim controlled by the autopilot. My airplane doesn't have that, I get an "up/dn" light and beeper if I need to trim, which I have to do manually.

Sounds like he busted the bravo with the AP on, pushed forward on the yoke to get down and the trim "ran away" because of his inputs. Since the trim was way out of whack, turning off the autopilot didn't have any affect, and he apparently didn't think to grab the trim wheel(if the bo has one, I assume so).
 
Don't they have a big red button in the yoke to kill the trim? If that doesn't do it a breaker?

I don't know the airplane. That said, and I'll take tons of heat for this, but I believe many private pilots are undertrained.
I also truly believe that doesn't hold true for many here. This place is almost like a continuous training forum, and also attracts the better quality pilots IMO.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
autopilot kill switch
autopilot/trim power switch
a/p/trim breaker
avionics master switch
master switch
overpower
what else?
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TRIM NOSE DOWN!!

Sounds to me like runaway trim. Very unfortunate situation. RIP. It would be very difficult to overpower full nose trim even if you did disconnect the A/P. My guess is that he was so focused on disabling the A/P that even once it had become disabled (unbeknownst to him) he failed to recognize that the trim was at full deflection and corrected accordingly.

It could happen to any of us... Hyperfocusing on the symptom, not the problem.
 
This is why the lack of auto-trim(would be nice) on my aircraft doesn't bother me too much. I've never seen trimming with the wheel to be a pain. Beats dealing with a runaway.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
This is why the lack of auto-trim(would be nice) on my aircraft doesn't bother me too much. I've never seen trimming with the wheel to be a pain. Beats dealing with a runaway.
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Does your plane have the overhead trim? I know in my Lance the trim wheel is pretty stiff compared to the Cessna's I've flown. I couldn't live without the electric trim.
 
Kritchlow said:
Don't they have a big red button in the yoke to kill the trim? If that doesn't do it a breaker?
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Yes, but defending on how the system failed, it may not work. I've seen autopilot failures where the yoke disconnect did nothing.

You are correct about needing to be serious on the training and understanding the system. In my airplane, if the yoke disconnect doesn't work, I'd be hitting the A/P and electric trim disconnect switches before I'd go for the CB.
 
ahkahn said:
TRIM NOSE DOWN!!

Sounds to me like runaway trim. Very unfortunate situation. RIP. It would be very difficult to overpower full nose trim even if you did disconnect the A/P. My guess is that he was so focused on disabling the A/P that even once it had become disabled (unbeknownst to him) he failed to recognize that the trim was at full deflection and corrected accordingly.

It could happen to any of us... Hyperfocusing on the symptom, not the problem.
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This is what I suspect may have happened. We know he was new to this airplane (recent purchase). Ifthe trim had runaway/gone full nose up. Even when he did finally kill the master power, he would have been left with full nose up trim. As I said in the other thread on this crash, the elevator trim wheel in that airplane is visually obscured by the yoke arm. If he didn't immediately grab it and start trimming down, he wouldn't have had long before losing control.

May be something completely different, but sobering thought nonetheless.
 
ahkahn said:
Does your plane have the overhead trim? I know in my Lance the trim wheel is pretty stiff compared to the Cessna's I've flown. I couldn't live without the electric trim.
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The Archers have a trim wheel between the seats just aft of the flap handle.

Some Archers have the electric trim(switch on the pilot's yoke), mine does not. I do agree the trim wheel is quite a bit stiffer than the Cessnas(152 and 172), but I don't find it hard to operate.
 
Fearless Tower said:
This is what I suspect may have happened. We know he was new to this airplane (recent purchase). Ifthe trim had runaway/gone full nose up. Even when he did finally kill the master power, he would have been left with full nose up trim. As I said in the other thread on this crash, the elevator trim wheel in that airplane is visually obscured by the yoke arm. If he didn't immediately grab it and start trimming down, he wouldn't have had long before losing control.

May be something completely different, but sobering thought nonetheless.
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I'm not familliar with the Bonanza, but if the trim wheel is obscured, is there an indicator elsewhere in the pilot's line of sight that indicates what position the trim is in related to neutral?

IF he was fighting the autopilot in pushing forward on the yoke to get out of the bravo, the trim might have acted like it was running away even though it was just doing it's job. And as you said, he pulls the circuit breaker, and it doesn't make any difference because he doesn't realize he needs to manually trim down because he's just left the trim in the up position, right where the autopilot put it before he disconnected power.

On the ATC recording, another pilot is trying to help him diagnose the situation and says "power off" - the pilot apparently reduces power. Then the guy clarifies and says "no, don't pull the throttle back, turn off the master".. and the guy asks if he needs to turn the key switch off:eek:

This guy didn't have enough/thorough training in the systems of his airplane.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
I'm not familliar with the Bonanza, but if the trim wheel is obscured, is there an indicator elsewhere in the pilot's line of sight that indicates what position the trim is in related to neutral?
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Nothing visible. Pre-1984 Beech products are not what you would call ergonomic. Not a whole lot if human factors thought was put into cockpit design.

You basically need to know where things are by feel. I have no idea what his background was before he bought the Bo, but if he just got a quick checkout and never paid much attention to using the manual trim vs the electric, he could easily have gotten lost.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
On the ATC recording, another pilot is trying to help him diagnose the situation and says "power off" - the pilot apparently reduces power. Then the guy clarifies and says "no, don't pull the throttle back, turn off the master".. and the guy asks if he needs to turn the key switch off:eek: .
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Do you have a link to the LiveATC recording?
 
I'm no expert on accident investigation, but I have done numerous trim runaways in the sim. That conversation did not resemble a trim runaway.
 
Kritchlow said:
I'm no expert on accident investigation, but I have done numerous trim runaways in the sim. That conversation did not resemble a trim runaway.
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Conversation was barely adequate pilot....probably had his medical though.....and still couldn't fly the plane.

I flown Bonanzas, Mooneys, Caravans, Malibus, Mirage, TBM and even a few hundred hours in a PC 12.....never once could the AP over control me in any of them.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kmco/KMCO-App-Disney-Ovido-Nov-20-2015-1600Z.mp3

Start at 19:40..
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Thanks. I am really surprised he didn't understand the concept of cycling the master. I understand that not everyone is curious about systems and it may seem like a lot of pointless trivia, but this really drives home how critical that knowledge can be in an emergency, especially when flying single pilot. I'm glad he got a lot of help from a fellow pilot and very sad for the two who perished

I'm a little less impressed with the other pilot at the end who complained "You're gonna close the whole airport for that guy?" I'm sure he would appreciate ATC clearing him a path if the tables were turned. I sure appreciated getting to jump the queue and get on the ground when the 182 threw a belt.

Only one plane I ever fly has an AP and I've always just ignored it, but I'm a lot more interested in how it works after this thread. Also gained some awareness of electric trim issues. Pitty it had to be this way.
 
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