Florida Fatal crash after issue with AP ?

The autopilot can go to full up trim and then disconnect and you get to deal with the plane being in full up trim.
 
With what I heard, I don't want to judge because I know a number of things can go wrong and look different from the other side.

Sad......

Interested to see what the NTSB has to say.
 
Turningfinal said:
In the Bonanza, are the pitch trim servo and autopilot servo the same thing?

Does anyone know whether those servos have the possibility of going over-center?
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There are three servo's - pitch, trim, and roll. Roll is in the left wing with pitch and trim in the tail. Electric trim is likely installed too.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Nothing visible. Pre-1984 Beech products are not what you would call ergonomic. Not a whole lot if human factors thought was put into cockpit design.

You basically need to know where things are by feel. I have no idea what his background was before he bought the Bo, but if he just got a quick checkout and never paid much attention to using the manual trim vs the electric, he could easily have gotten lost.
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Huh? Trim position in my 1980 Bo is very visible from the pilot seat.

Did he pull the right breaker, and did he power off the electric trim; those are the questions that need answered.

What a sad situation. Clearly he was confused when told to power off.
 
We're all hearing the same thing. It sounds like he pulled the breaker and probably did disable the AP but never thought to check the trim because he didn't understand that the AP controlled trim. He continued to fight the plane while expecting a switch toggle or breaker pull to fix his problem.

I doubt he let Jesus take the wheel but he let everyone else take over his problem. I think he gave up when he asked ATC how to disable the AP and the other pilot responded. From that point on his thinking became passive.

It can be comforting when someone else is helping you work your problem but you can't give the controls to someone over the radio.

Whatever caused this accident, this thread has been very educational.
 
ollopa said:
I doubt he let Jesus take the wheel but he let everyone else take over his problem. I think he gave up when he asked ATC how to disable the AP and the other pilot responded. From that point on his thinking became passive.
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The big takeaway In think is never give up. Continue to try and solve the problem until the last instant.

I've ridden with car drivers who when startled take their hands off the wheel, stab the brakes, and cover their eyes. WTF? DO SOMETHING!
 
GLMS_NC said:
Huh? Trim position in my 1980 Bo is very visible from the pilot seat.
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Are you referring to the small position indicator on the subpanel? If so, it is probably visible on the Bo (it is not on the Baron), but you have to crane your head (at least I do) to see the actual trim wheel due to the yoke arm.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Here is a photo of the panel on the accident aircraft (sold a couple months ago). The elevator trim wheel is visible just above the right rudder pedal. There is a small indicator on the subpanel above the trim wheel. The A/P circuit breaker is way over on the right side sub-panel.
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Pic is in post 44/...


The more I look at that I-pad holder, the more I think when the pad is in it, it must block the view of the buttons on the yoke and their functions.. if they are even labeled...:dunno:.

And there is a tablet holder in the middle panel too...... My guess is this guy had more toys then talent...:redface:
 
N801BH said:
Pic is in post 44/...


The more I look at that I-pad holder, the more I think when the pad is in it, it must block the view of the buttons on the yoke and their functions.. if they are even labeled...:dunno:.

And there is a tablet holder in the middle panel too...... My guess is this guy had more toys then talent...:redface:
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Hard to say. I have the same dual yoke arm in the Baron and put the ipad in the center mount (nothing on the yoke), but the twin controls are above the center yoke tube.

I remember doing my original complex training in a Bo with a dual arm yoke that I was often grabbing the wrong control (mixture vs prop vs throttle) when making power changes - horrible design.
 
N801BH said:
Pic is in post 44/...


The more I look at that I-pad holder, the more I think when the pad is in it, it must block the view of the buttons on the yoke and their functions.. if they are even labeled...:dunno:.

And there is a tablet holder in the middle panel too...... My guess is this guy had more toys then talent...:redface:
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I thought the same thing (as I try to find a good home for my iPad). But, I believe that pic is from the "for sale" pictures. Don't know what portable set up he had.
 
I have the same mount for my iPad and while the Piper yoke isn't the same, from looking at the pics I don't believe that the mount would really obstruct any of the buttons from the pilot's line of sight. Anyways, that shouldn't matter.
 
Sam D said:
I thought the same thing (as I try to find a good home for my iPad). But, I believe that pic is from the "for sale" pictures. Don't know what portable set up he had.
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I'd just get a flip canvas case for it and keep it on your lap, works great for me I all sorts of airframes.
 
James331 said:
I'd just get a flip canvas case for it and keep it on your lap, works great for me I all sorts of airframes.
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I currently have it in my lap but don't like the amount of head movement for approach plates. The velcro strap it came with can make a poor man's yoke mount but that covers a bit of real estate.
 
It's not much different than having it on the yoke depending on your setup. What every works, I just don't like strapping anything to my flight controls.
 
Hank S said:
If this event causes you to go home and study up on the systems in your plane, and think about failure modes and what to do, then this forum is worthwhile. This is it's whole purpose! If two people do so, it's an overwhelming success. Sounds like several here are doing that. Good!
....
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well said Hank. when I first joined PoA I got frustrated at all the speculation over accident causes. I quickly realized that someone might have information or a perspective that one day might save my bacon or any other pilot's hide, and that makes the discussion well worth it.
 
I don't know if anyone else mentioned this, but one of the first things he says is "we'd like to start our climb because we have an opening here". was he trying to punch thru a layer or a small opening thru it? assuming he had altitude pre-select, don't those have some type of max rate of climb limitation? either way, he sounded distracted from the first word he uttered. sad.
 
http://www.wesh.com/news/orange-cou...d-when-plane-crashed-into-clear-lake/36635182

ORLANDO, Fla. —Officials in Orange County said they've positively identified the victims of Friday's fatal plane crash.

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The pilot of the six-seater Beechcraft reported a malfunction with the autopilot after taking off from Orlando Executive Airport around 11:30 a.m. While attempting to return to the airport, officials said, the plane crashed into Clear Lake, near downtown Orlando.

Authorities identified the pilot as Robert Stimmel, 61, of Washington. The passenger was identified as his wife, Maria Stimmel, 45. The couple, who had just married, were the only people on board.

The National Transportation Safety Board is investigating the cause of the crash.
 
That's a theory I've subscribed to since the beginning. He busted bravo, panicked and shoved to get down, autopilot winds the trim up fighting him. He mentioned nothing of the AP problem prior to the bravo bust and the scolding by the controller.

If you listen to other audio, he's already busted his initial climb restriction(by 500 feet) when calling up departure.

He asked tower for the departure frequency even though it was given to him by ground/clearance.

Listening to the ground/tower coms prior to the link posted earlier gives some insight. This guy sounded like a student pilot.
 
Turningfinal said:
In the Bonanza, are the pitch trim servo and autopilot servo the same thing?
Click to expand...

The pitch servo controls the elevator, the trim servo controls the trim and physically turns the trim wheel while it is actuated. The pitch servo is driven only by the autopilot, the trim servo receives its power via a separate 'trim' circuit breaker. The trim servo is controlled by two routes, either the split rocker switch on the yoke to manually trim, o by receiving auto-trim inputs from the KFC200 autopilot computer.
The red autopilot disconnect also temporarily de-energizes the trim servo. So if there was a malfunction in the autopilot or the trim switch, holding down the AP disconnect would give you the opportunity to manually spin the trim wheel. To completely disable the trim servo, one has to pull the 'Trim' breaker which is next to the 'autopilot' breaker. Both breakers sit in the center of a row of like looking breakers in front of the copilots knees. You have to know which ones they are (ideally by having them collared or zip-tied) and be able to pull them. That sounds easier than it is because at the same time you are trying to get to the breaker, you also have to hold the yoke against whatever mis-trimmed condition you were left in AND hold the AP disconnect on the left side of the yoke. Better have monkey arms.

Does anyone know whether those servos have the possibility of going over-center?
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Don't know. They can certainly fail. They have an override clutch which should allow you to overpower them even if cutting power doesn't disengage the servo.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
That's a theory I've subscribed to since the beginning. He busted bravo, panicked and shoved to get down, autopilot winds the trim up fighting him. He mentioned nothing of the AP problem prior to the bravo bust and the scolding by the controller.

If you listen to other audio, he's already busted his initial climb restriction(by 500 feet) when calling up departure.

He asked tower for the departure frequency even though it was given to him by ground/clearance.

Listening to the ground/tower coms prior to the link posted earlier gives some insight. This guy sounded like a student pilot.
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I'm sure everyone has cruise control on their car. Designers were smart enough to realize that if you press the brake it should disengage. Why is it that an attempt to regain AC control does not also automatically disengage the AP :dunno:
 
Jaybird180 said:
I'm sure everyone has cruise control on their car. Designers were smart enough to realize that if you press the brake it should disengage. Why is it that an attempt to regain AC control does not also automatically disengage the AP :dunno:
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If you use the electric trim, the AP disengages. The technical reason that the AP doesn't disengage once you fight it is that the servos don't have a force feedback.
 
All the money we pay for engineers to give us an overlooked safety feature. I'm sure the FAA certification is to blame
 
Jaybird180 said:
I'm sure everyone has cruise control on their car. Designers were smart enough to realize that if you press the brake it should disengage. Why is it that an attempt to regain AC control does not also automatically disengage the AP :dunno:
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A car a single axis- the gas, so it is probably a bit too complicated to try and do the same thing for most GA autopilot systems that have multiple axis/servos.

That said, in larger aircraft like airliners, you do have autopilot disconnects associated with control movement. FWIW, that feature in the L-1011 was directly related to the Eastern Everglades crash.
 
There was a chime in the cockpit, but the crew failed to hear it. Additionally it was at the rear of the cockpit near the flight engineer's station, but he was not at his seat - he was down below trying to see if the nose gear was down.

In any case, they had s perfectly working altimeter which they failed to look at for several minutes. They were so distracted that I wonder if they would have even seen an annunciation light.
 
Fearless Tower said:
A car a single axis- the gas, so it is probably a bit too complicated to try and do the same thing for most GA autopilot systems that have multiple axis/servos.

That said, in larger aircraft like airliners, you do have autopilot disconnects associated with control movement. FWIW, that feature in the L-1011 was directly related to the Eastern Everglades crash.
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Large aircraft also have hydraulically boosted rudders and a mechanism that can 'feel' whether a force acting on a control surface is from a control input or from aerodynamic or acceleration forces acting upon the control surface. To include that type of sensing on the direct mechanical control linkages of a small aircraft would require additional equipment.
 
weilke said:
Not sure if serious :confused:

What safety feature ?
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The one safety feature that the accident airplane could have used was separate A/P and electric trim power switches on the panel (did not have them).

If he had a short circuit in the A/P or electric trim systems, the only way to have disabled them would have been either the CBs or the Master power switch.

A lot of Beech folks have those switches added (my Baron has them). Very handy feature.
 
Now that they released the pilot's name I'm a little disturbed as to what I found in the FAA pilot database. I was hoping to find a newly minted PPL and make me feel reassured that it wasn't someone with a lot of experience. Last rating was added in 2010. Has single and multi as well as instrument airplane. Maybe he hasn't flown in months but he certainly had enough training to be able to know what a master switch is. Maybe it was just the stress that made him forget.
 
Pbtx0 said:
Now that they released the pilot's name I'm a little disturbed as to what I found in the FAA pilot database. I was hoping to find a newly minted PPL and make me feel reassured that it wasn't someone with a lot of experience. Last rating was added in 2010. Has single and multi as well as instrument airplane. Maybe he hasn't flown in months but he certainly had enough training to be able to know what a master switch is. Maybe it was just the stress that made him forget.
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Couple of possibilities. One (as some have claimed on other boards), he actually had a lot of A36 time, but that experience may have been with more simplistic avionics, thus he didn't need an insurance checkout, but didn't understand how to work his A/P and trim in the heat of battle.

Another possibility is a medical issue. Could have been experiencing early dementia/Alzheimer's. Dunno. He wasn't a spring chicken.
 
One of the first things that happens to pilots when something bad happens in an airplane is that we lose about 50 IQ points...often as not, that's the bigger "emergency" that we have to deal with.
 
Pbtx0 said:
Now that they released the pilot's name I'm a little disturbed as to what I found in the FAA pilot database. I was hoping to find a newly minted PPL and make me feel reassured that it wasn't someone with a lot of experience. Last rating was added in 2010. Has single and multi as well as instrument airplane. Maybe he hasn't flown in months but he certainly had enough training to be able to know what a master switch is. Maybe it was just the stress that made him forget.
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In 2005 when he wrecked is P-model on an instrument approach in Ukiah, CA he had 1450 hrs with 54 actual and 90 simulated IFR.
 
Fearless Tower said:
The one safety feature that the accident airplane could have used was separate A/P and electric trim power switches on the panel (did not have them).

If he had a short circuit in the A/P or electric trim systems, the only way to have disabled them would have been either the CBs or the Master power switch.

A lot of Beech folks have those switches added (my Baron has them). Very handy feature.
Click to expand...

Saves you having to lean over to pull the CBs.
 
MauleSkinner said:
One of the first things that happens to pilots when something bad happens in an airplane is that we lose about 50 IQ points...often as not, that's the bigger "emergency" that we have to deal with.
Click to expand...

Gotta extinguish the helmet fire first.

That said, the accidents pilot's radio transmissions while he was still on the ground are what make me wonder about a medical condition. He just didn't seem at the top of his game even before the emergency materialized.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Exactly, which on the accident aircraft were not specially marked.
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In 2006 a Citation went into lake michigan while the crew was trying to find the AP and trim CBs. There was an arcing site inside og the copilot yoke that created an alternate path for current to get to the trim actuator.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Gotta extinguish the helmet fire first.

That said, the accidents pilot's radio transmissions while he was still on the ground are what make me wonder about a medical condition. He just didn't seem at the top of his game even before the emergency materialized.
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They said he was there for 4 days on honeymoon with his new wife Hungover/Groggy maybe? Really I'm just looking for something that will make me say this won't ever happen to me.
 
MotoFlier said:
Really I'm just looking for something that will make me say this won't ever happen to me.
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For starters, if you aren't feeling on the top of your game, don't try to launch VFR close to Bravo airspace and expect everything will work out for you to punch up through a cloud layer. It sure seems like his plan wasn't well thought out before he left the ground.

Either stay low and wait to climb until you are well clear of the Bravo or file IFR. Trying to climb through a cloud layer in class B can be asking for trouble
 
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