Flight Instructor Question

[Pa28-140]

Question deleted

 

[N801BH]

In each case the controller needs to say "call the tower when shut down" and then give them the number... At that time the tower guy needs to talk to both the instructor and student and explain the problem...

I bet it won't happen again and the word will quickly spread around the airport of what NOT to do... IMHO

 

[ClimbnSink]

Safety culture strikes again. How dare you desire to rush a pilot in command, he's gotta read that checklist thrice before talking to ground.

 

[Fly-Fla]

I had four different instructors during my primary flight training for my PPL. All of them would have me come to a complete stop off the runway and run through my after landing checklist, tune the radio to ground, figure out what I needed to say and be ready to copy taxi instructions and then make the call. All told, probably 1-2 minutes while I was a new student. I trained in a class C airport so the radio was more intimidating than flying in most respects at first. Obviously it doesn't take me that long now but I can understand the pause. Of course I would turn off the runway way sooner than an airbus so I might only be in the way of the next 172 coming in.

 

[Pa28-140]

I wish it were that simple. This appears to be a systemic problem rather than a problem with an individual flight instructor. This is SOP at flight schools at both airports. I guess I'm looking for some written reference that I can hit them with. Beyond retracting flaps, opening cowl flaps, and changing frequencies.....what the heck can't be done on the ramp?

 

[wabower]

Gordon,

If you hang around GA airports for a sufficient time, you'll see all sorts of mis-licks and bent metal, like reaching for the flaps and pulling the gear while on landing roll. Many training centers and CFI's teach pilots to "leave all those levers and knobs alone until you're clear and stopped" and then run the list.

IMO, that's the way it should be done, although I don't think the guy should invoke squatter's rights on his piece of the taxiway to do it. You'll also see that most GA checklists, especially the older versions, do not include a "line-up" and/or an "after land-clearing" section in the checklists, so the 3-6 items you might expect to see before entering the active for takeoff or stopped after turn-off (flaps, lights, heats, cowl flaps, de-ice vanes, TXP, etc.) can turn into the entire list including chocks.

 

[Pa28-140]

I guess my perspective as a controller is that once I issue taxi instructions I shouldn't have to say "don't stop/camp on the taxiway". Further, when I tell somebody to start their taxi, I expect some form of compliance......not "we're doing a checklist". Right or wrong that is my perspective although I do see that you and others were taught otherwise. Thanks for the feedback. This obviously goes beyond my two airports.

 

[Shepherd]

During a checkride, any student that does NOT stop, and do his "cleanup" before proceeding onto the taxiway will fail the checkride. That tends to become a powerful lesson, and one that is hard to overcome.
Personally, I think it's a good habit to get into, and personally, I don't care if it does cause ATC, big business airlines and big money airports a problem. My concern, and my only concern is the plane I'm flying and the safety of the people in it. If that C-172 pilot screws the pooch because he is being pressured to do something, do you think the FAA will give a damn? It's going to be "pilot error, leave your license on the desk on your way out."

Just my humble opinion.

 

[dell30rb]

Instead of trying to slap them in the face with regulations you might try meeting with the chief CFI's of the flight schools and explain the problem and ask for a reasonable solution.

I feel your pain but as explained earlier, in the interest of safety and plane well-being, it is a good idea for students to come to a full stop when running the checklist.

That said you are correct that the after-landing checklist should only be a few items, and even a student should be able to complete it within 60 seconds. Wayne is right that the after-landing/clearing is not separated in many of the boiler plate checklists.

You might suggest as a solution that the CFI's develop an after landing checklist and if on a dual flight, you expect the checklist will be completed in one minute. If they go over one minute and there is another aircraft using the taxiway, you will request (and expect) the instructor get the plane on the move. If a student is on a solo flight and needs more time, the student should announce they are a student pilot and you will try to space traffic appropriately so they can have extra time to complete the checklist.

 

[Jaybird180]

1- Really- how long does it take to clean up a training aircraft? A few buttons, knobs and switches. Eventually the Hobbs meter can motivate a student to execute faster. CFIs aren't motivated to encourage the lesson; exactly the opposite.

2- The taxiway is the purview of the Ground Controller. I seem to recall something about following instructions in Part 91....here it is:

(a) When an ATC clearance has been obtained, no pilot in command may deviate from that clearance unless an amended clearance is obtained, an emergency exists, or the deviation is in response to a traffic alert and collision avoidance system resolution advisory. However, except in Class A airspace, a pilot may cancel an IFR flight plan if the operation is being conducted in VFR weather conditions. When a pilot is uncertain of an ATC clearance, that pilot shall immediately request clarification from ATC.

(b) Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.

(c) Each pilot in command who, in an emergency, or in response to a traffic alert and collision avoidance system resolution advisory, deviates from an ATC clearance or instruction shall notify ATC of that deviation as soon as possible.

(d) Each pilot in command who (though not deviating from a rule of this subpart) is given priority by ATC in an emergency, shall submit a detailed report of that emergency within 48 hours to the manager of that ATC facility, if requested by ATC.

(e) Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person operating an aircraft may operate that aircraft according to any clearance or instruction that has been issued to the pilot of another aircraft for radar air traffic control purposes.

3- This is part of the pro/con of training at a towered facility, ATC/ Tower workload. I didn't train at a towered facility, and have once or twice felt rushed at towered fields (the tone is more of - one of those annyoing little planes), and I don't loiter.

4- Possibly this is a THEM vs US attitude and the CFI is trying to teach that lesson: you're on OUR side! Tower is there to provide services for US, not the other way around.

All I got, for now.

 

[Jaybird180]

Instead of trying to slap them in the face with regulations you might try meeting with the chief CFI's of the flight schools and explain the problem and ask for a reasonable solution.

I feel your pain but as explained earlier, in the interest of safety and plane well-being, it is a good idea for students to come to a full stop when running the checklist.

That said you are correct that the after-landing checklist should only be a few items, and even a student should be able to complete it within 60 seconds. Wayne is right that the after-landing/clearing is not separated in many of the boiler plate checklists.

You might suggest as a solution that the CFI's develop an after landing checklist and if on a dual flight, you expect the checklist will be completed in one minute. If they go over one minute and there is another aircraft using the taxiway, you will request (and expect) the instructor get the plane on the move. If a student is on a solo flight and needs more time, the student should announce they are a student pilot and you will try to space traffic appropriately so they can have extra time to complete the checklist.

 

[N801BH]

I wish it were that simple. This appears to be a systemic problem rather than a problem with an individual flight instructor. This is SOP at flight schools at both airports. I guess I'm looking for some written reference that I can hit them with. Beyond retracting flaps, opening cowl flaps, and changing frequencies.....what the heck can't be done on the ramp?

I am with Gordon on this one 100%..... You have your cowl flaps open already and the flaps can be left down till you get to the ramp... Except for maybe turning off the strobes the only task needed to taxi to the ramp is to change freqs.... How long can that possibly take...

These controllers need to keep all the traffic moving to flow properly.. Having someone sit in some taxiway for a few minutes to "complete their after landing checklist" is not in the best interest of incoming and outgoing aircraft..... IMHO...

Ben ( flamesuit on for a healthy debate on why you can't just taxi to the ramp and do the checklist there) Haas....

 

[Matthew]

I'm pretty sure i've flown at the two airports being referenced.

One of the airports has two flight schools and a lot of primary students. SOP there (I trained there) is to turn onto the taxiway, then do an after-landing checklist. Both those schools do seem to try to stay up-to-date on local procedures. If there are some problems, letting the flight schools know should help a lot.

The other airport seems to have more independent CFIs and no formal flight school. That may be a little tougher to figure out. I think this is the airport where I finished my first solo flight in a new-to-me plane, pulled up the taxiway and stopped for a little while to clean up the plane. I was being a little more deliberate than usual because i was unfamiliar. That's when I heard on the radio the controller telling a landing plane to turn off onto my taxiway, and the plane that is stopped "will be moving soon." That was my hint that i had stopped long enough. Looking back, i really shouldn't have stopped, there is a huge ramp very close that i could have pulled onto and done everything I needed.

 

[MAKG1]

There is a LITTLE more to it than that.

At sea level (where most training takes place), it's important to lean for taxi. At high altitude, you don't enrich for landing, so it's already there.

But few training aircraft have cowl flaps. And the transponder step has gone away now that the AIM recommends leaving it on ALT all the time. So, cleanup means yanking the flaps, turning the lights off, maybe trimming for takeoff (important if this is a taxi-back!), turning off the lights, and maybe switching the radio to ground (for a student in the pattern, standby is already tuned). I also like to tune the DG if I'm not parking, and the aircraft requires it. How long does that take, even for a student? I suspect more is going on than reading a checklist. Maybe a debrief of the landing that just took place. Or fiddling with the radio panel.

It's not a checkride fail by itself to do this on the roll. But it will be if you can't keep the aircraft on centerline or if something gets in your way and you don't react to it, so it's a really good idea to stop.

 

[rottydaddy]

During a checkride, any student that does NOT stop, and do his "cleanup" before proceeding onto the taxiway will fail the checkride.

Wait... do you mean stop on the runway and do this?!
I was taught to start the "cleanup" checklist after clearing the hold-short line.
And I never rustled any jimmies at KTEB doing this even when I was a noobie, because it never took more than a few seconds to do carb heat, flaps, lights, tx (and ELT check if you like) even when reading from that list for the first time.
If a student is having trouble with that, I think a CFI should take care of it for them initially, then review it "cold and dark" on the ramp a few times until the student can do it quickly and smoothly (and accurately). Students should also make checklists part of their chair flying or sim-flying. I did all of the above, including sitting in the plane on the ramp reviewing the checklists myself. At a place like KTEB, this prep was important
Any PIC can ask for some "extra" time on the taxiway for any good reason, but in general I think it's good practice to get off the runways and taxiways ASAP. Not talking about doing checklists while moving, so much as just being quick about it. Until a student has it more or less wired, the instructor should do it. Most trainer checklists are quite short; this shouldn't be a big deal.

 

[Shepherd]

Wait... do you mean stop on the runway and do this?!
I was taught to start the "cleanup" checklist after clearing the hold-short line.
QUOTE]

Same procedure for anyone. Clear the runway. Stop. Do the cleanup. Go.
Obviously the cleanup is different for every plane, but you have to complete it, by the numbers.

 

[write-stuff]

Instructional flights may be a bit more sluggish in responding after exiting and crossing the hold short line. The CFI is explaining to the student that the entire aircraft has to be across the line, the difference between "contact ground" and "taxi and monitor", and the airplane checklist itself (carb heat, flaps, radios, etc.). Instructors should be aware that the tower is expecting them to do something, but there's a balance between expediency and training that must be met.

 

[wabower]

Count the number of crew heads and hands available for clean-up in the planes at the big airports and compare to those at the small airports. Don't be surprised if it's ~ 2:1.

The DPE's say that one of the consistent deficiencies with examinees is their failure to use checklists. Should we make exceptions to that requirement?

I wish it were that simple. This appears to be a systemic problem rather than a problem with an individual flight instructor. This is SOP at flight schools at both airports. I guess I'm looking for some written reference that I can hit them with. Beyond retracting flaps, opening cowl flaps, and changing frequencies.....what the heck can't be done on the ramp?

 

[Greg Bockelman]

The DPE's say that one of the consistent deficiencies with examinees is their failure to use checklists. Should we make exceptions to that requirement?

Why not taxi to the ramp and do it? Still doing it. Just a matter of when and where.

 

[LDJones]

Gordon,

If you hang around GA airports for a sufficient time, you'll see all sorts of mis-licks and bent metal, like reaching for the flaps and pulling the gear while on landing roll. Many training centers and CFI's teach pilots to "leave all those levers and knobs alone until you're clear and stopped" and then run the list.

IMO, that's the way it should be done, although I don't think the guy should invoke squatter's rights on his piece of the taxiway to do it. You'll also see that most GA checklists, especially the older versions, do not include a "line-up" and/or an "after land-clearing" section in the checklists, so the 3-6 items you might expect to see before entering the active for takeoff or stopped after turn-off (flaps, lights, heats, cowl flaps, de-ice vanes, TXP, etc.) can turn into the entire list including chocks.

Keep in mind, you said this was a training environment. Teaching someone to do something takes more time than just doing it. The instructor is likely explaining the process while a new student is trying to figure it out and is asking questions along the way. And they're being trained that way because that's what the FAA wants to see on the checkride....not necessarily the long delay, but the use of the checklist.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Teaching someone to do something takes more time than just doing it.

Yeah, but part of the teaching should be how to get things done in an expeditious manner and not tie up traffic.

I can understand what the FAA is getting at, but that is sort of the difference between theory and the real world.

 

[Jaybird180]

Keep in mind, you said this was a training environment. Teaching someone to do something takes more time than just doing it. The instructor is likely explaining the process while a new student is trying to figure it out and is asking questions along the way. And they're being trained that way because that's what the FAA wants to see on the checkride....not necessarily the long delay, but the use of the checklist.

The DPE's say that one of the consistent deficiencies with examinees is their failure to use checklists. Should we make exceptions to that requirement?

Sounds like ineffective training to me.

 

[poadeleted20]

2-3 minutes to do the after landing checklist? Something's wrong there, with either the instructor/trainee or the checklist.

I have my trainees memorize a short checklist (typically pump-strobe-squawk-mixture-flaps-clock) and run it after clearing, then switching to Ground to proceed. Shouldn't take more than 15 seconds to do that. I also teach having Ground dialed in on the #2 radio before starting the approach/entering the pattern so they can switch quickly when instructed to do so.

 

[ClimbnSink]

2-3 minutes to do the after landing checklist? Something's wrong there, with either the instructor/trainee or the checklist. I have my trainees memorize a short checklist (typically pump-strobe-squawk-mixture-flaps-clock) and run it after clearing, then switching to Ground proceeding on. Shouldn't take more than 15 seconds to do that.

Written checklists are safer. Kidding, but written checklists appear safer to flight school safety theatre specialists. Just like grade school the teacher can't do the problem in her head so you get punished for not showing the work.
Why you guys rushing safety?

 

[Hobobiker]

As a current student example, 21.5 hours into my training, my CFI has me "Dash Over The Line" to clear the runway, STOP, make a radio call that I'm clear of the runway and do the "After Landing" checklist. As many have mentioned, doesn't take long to shut off my lights, raise the flaps, set trim back to take-off and make a radio call that I'm taxiing back to the terminal.

That said, I DO have to stop and do the checklist before proceeding. I'm told that if I fail to do this on the checkride it could count against me in the same way as not clearing airspace before demonstrating a required element.

 

[poadeleted20]

Just like grade school the teacher can't do the problem in her head so you get punished for not showing the work.

Somewhat off the original topic, but there are good teaching reasons for making students show their work -- you find out if they really understand the problem (or not) and why they got the wrong answer (if they did).

As for he original issue, even if you do use a written post-landing checklist, if it takes three minutes to run, something's wrong with either the checklist, the instructor, or the trainee.

 

[poadeleted20]

That said, I DO have to stop and do the checklist before proceeding. I'm told that if I fail to do this on the checkride it could count against me in the same way as not clearing airspace before demonstrating a required element.

There are very good reasons for that, primarily the prevention of off-taxiway excursions and runway/taxiway incursions.

 

[dell30rb]

I have my trainees memorize a short checklist (typically pump-strobe-squawk-mixture-flaps-clock) and run it after clearing, then switching to Ground to proceed. Shouldn't take more than 15 seconds to do that.

I agree but have to consider there are a number of foreign student pilots who barely speak english and may never have driven anything more complex than a scooter.

 

[MAKG1]

I agree but have to consider there are a number of foreign student pilots who barely speak english and may never have driven anything more complex than a scooter.

In that case, more ground instruction is necessary. Not being able to understand your flight instructor or controllers makes your presence a huge risk in the air.

Speaking English is not a specific requirement for a student pilot (at least dual), but it is a practical requirement. At least having an instructor and student speaking the same language....and of course English proficiency IS required for solo.

14 CFR 61.83 requires PROFICIENCY, which is a lot more than being able to understand a couple of words. It ain't easy (quite the contrary), but we should think twice about letting that affect safety of flight.

 

[jesse]

This exact issue really annoys me at my home airport. I'm trying to teach someone to be consistent and to do things the same way from day one. If you don't beat an after-landing checklist into someone's head from the start good luck doing it later.

When you're rolling out at my airport (class C, LNK) one of many things will end up happening:

- Controller will say "Bugsmasher 1234, turn right on Kilo, taxi to the ramp with me"
Pilot should exit runway, taxi to the ramp, then run checklist
OR
- Controller will say "Bugsmasher 1234, turn right on kilo, taxi to the ramp monitor point niner"
Pilot show exit runway, switch to 121.9 while taxing, taxi to the ramp, then run the checklist
OR
- Controller will say "Bugsmasher 1234, turn right on kilo"
Pilot should exit at kilo, stop, run checklist, and wait for tower to tell them to contact ground. They usually won't until you prompt them.
OR
- Controller will say nothing and pilot exits runway on their own. Pilot then runs checklist and waits for Tower to tell them to contact Ground. Usually tower won't until you prompt them.

It's completely random which one of those will happen. Student's ability to properly interpret that each time is rather difficult in their early stages. Seems to be worse in the last year or so.

I often see people taxing without permission or just sitting there awkwardly. I wish the Tower would just make up their mind with how they want to do things. It's just tough doing primary training when there are umpteen ways something could happen and they might not see one of them until their solo.

 

[MAKG1]

Other traffic won't "consistently" do the same thing, either. It's important to train students to understand, rather than expect an instruction. Incursions can happen that way -- the pilot expects to hear instruction A, but gets instruction B. Pilot hears the instruction, but doesn't really hear it, and reads back instruction A. The controller expects to hear instruction B read back, but does the same thing the pilot does. Now, you're in a situation where each thinks the other has understood, but they haven't.

 

[jesse]

Other traffic won't "consistently" do the same thing, either. It's important to train students to understand, rather than expect an instruction. Incursions can happen that way -- the pilot expects to hear instruction A, but gets instruction B. Pilot hears the instruction, but doesn't really hear it, and reads back instruction A. The controller expects to hear instruction B read back, but does the same thing the pilot does. Now, you're in a situation where each thinks the other has understood, but they haven't.

That's fine and all. There comes a point to where a student starts to be able to be more aware of the entire situation but it's not that way from day one. It's difficult to teach when each flight is different. A little consistency goes a long ways during the first 10 hours of piloting.

 

[ateamer]

My after landing flow/checklist in the 172:
-Landing & strobe lights off
-Carb heat off
-Mixture lean
-Flaps up

It takes about 15 seconds to do and then use the checklist.

 

[TommyG]

Students should be taught to do it by the book, so to have a student turn off and go to the ramp because the tower says to do it, isn't the best for someone that is learning. Now as you have advanced students you can give them the leeway to follow the tower instructions if they choose to.

Yes the after landing checklist for a training aircraft is rather simple and can be memorized quite easily. Now as more complex aircraft have more to do for the after landing checklist.

I know guys that fly the same 172 I do and they pull off, look t
At the checklist and make sure everything is done. Me I can pull off, do want I know needs to be done. If I am stopped I will look at the checklist and verify. If tower asks me to keep going, I will do it verify either as I am taxiing or when I stop.

Not all pilots are alike, they do not do things the same. You can't expect CFIs to all be the same just as not all students are the same.

 

[airdale]

Gordon,

I have a couple of questions:

1) Is it really "2-3 minutes before continuing?" timed using a watch? That's a very long time. Or is it really 30 seconds and while you're watching and waiting it feels much longer?

2) How often, really, does this cause a go-around or block traffic in any significant way? 5% of the times it happens? 50%? In other words, is this just an annoyance to you and not really a significant operational problem?

I stop and run a 4-6 item checklist and I plan to continue doing it, but it doesn't take 2-3 minutes.

I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but I am curious as to the scope of the "problem."

 

[NineThreeKilo]

The after landings checks half the time can be done in less then 20 seconds in a trainer, even many single engine turbines.

When I touch down, wheels down / flaps up, cowl flaps open, pull mixture a inch and that's as I'm rolling towards the taxiway exit from the runway, once clear I turn the strobes off (which I already have my finger on).

Very few times have I actually STOPPED to do those checks, just ain't that many of em.

Also the landing gear acidently going up instead of flaps, not a very good argument, just like saying never pull cabin or carb heat because you could mistakenly pull the mixture. Look, grab, pull, done.

I would wager most of the CFIs teaching this "camp out at the taxi way" have little to no commerical experience outside of CFIing

 

[jesse]

The after landings checks half the time can be done in less then 20 seconds in a trainer, even many single engine turbines.

When I touch down, wheels down / flaps up, cowl flaps open, pull mixture a inch and that's as I'm rolling towards the taxiway exit from the runway, once clear I turn the strobes off (which I already have my finger on).

Very few times have I actually STOPPED to do those checks, just ain't that many of em.

Also the landing gear acidently going up instead of flaps, not a very good argument, just like saying never pull cabin or carb heat because you could mistakenly pull the mixture. Look, grab, pull, done.

I would wager most of the CFIs teaching this "camp out at the taxi way" have little to no commerical experience outside of CFIing

What you are able to do as an experienced pilot is not what a 5 hour student is able to do.

 

[Palmpilot]

At Palo Alto, which has quite a short distance between the runway and the parallel taxiway, there is (or was?) a letter to airmen instructing pilots to pull far enough down the taxiway to allow one more plane room to clear the runway behind them. Maybe something like that is needed, in addition to letting the local instructors know to not take excessive time for the after landing checklist.

 

[poadeleted20]

It says "After Landing" because it's supposed to be done "After Landing," not "After Taxi" or "Before Parking." There are many good reasons not to taxi all the way to parking before running the After Landing checklist, starting with cooking your engine because you didn't open the cowl flaps, or strobing someone blind as you taxi past them at night. But in any plane flown by a single pilot, it should be possible to do in only a few seconds before continuing the taxi after clearing the runway. If a Student Pilot can't do that in that amount of time, s/he's not ready for solo.

 

[Matthew]

At Palo Alto, which has quite a short distance between the runway and the parallel taxiway, there is (or was?) a letter to airmen instructing pilots to pull far enough down the taxiway to allow one more plane room to clear the runway behind them. Maybe something like that is needed, in addition to letting the local instructors know to not take excessive time for the after landing checklist.

I think i know the airports (and I know I know the OP) - each have intersections at several places along the rwy where that won't work. Pulling in far enough to make room behind means you'll be blocking the taxiway for other traffic.

Maybe the OP just happens to be working during the peak training times? And since we've had so much crappy wx lately, the good days can really get busy.