Flight Instructor Question

The last two posts paint a perfect picture of why to keep it moving at airports...:yes::yes:..

:thumbsup::thumbsup:
 
Pa28-140 said:
When you are cleared for takeoff to you slooooowly taxi unto the runway, put on the white gloves and scarf, sit there for a long alignment check because it is YOUR runway? (some do)
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:rofl: good one!
 
I like keo56's quote.....

"I had them sit for 30-55 seconds (building courage??),"

:lol::rofl::eek:
 
Shepherd said:
rottydaddy said:
Wait... do you mean stop on the runway and do this?!
I was taught to start the "cleanup" checklist after clearing the hold-short line.
QUOTE]

Same procedure for anyone. Clear the runway. Stop. Do the cleanup. Go.
Obviously the cleanup is different for every plane, but you have to complete it, by the numbers.
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That's what I thought you meant... "before proceeding onto the taxiway" threw me off.
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Ron Levy said:
It takes you 2-3 minutes to turn off the carb heat, turn off the fuel pump, retract the wing flaps, open the cowl flaps, lean the mixture, note the time and switch the radio to ground?
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Nope.

If that's true, I would say that your competence as a pilot is questionable.
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Agreed, but they're out there.
 
Pa28-140 said:
First, the 2-3 minutes is accurate. Does it ALWAYS take that long? Of course not, but it is very common
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Then you guys need to talk to whoever's doing it, because that's not the way they should be operating.

and causes immense problems when exits are blocked and nobody can taxi. Especially when there is a flight instructor on board who will not move the airplane because "we're teaching here".
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Sounds like the issue is not running the checklist, but an instructor trying to give training on the landing immediately after the landing. The correct way to do this s for the instructor to take the controls so the trainee can listen effectively, and begin taxiing while talking with the trainee (the flight instructor being able, one hopes, to teach and taxi at the same time). What you may need is a meeting with the instructors and the tower to sort this out, because it's not proper procedure the way they're doing it.
 
It also sounds a little like the instructor is busy trying to make the trainee into an Airline Pilot, CRM, Biz-Jet, procedures Overlord.

A case of a good thing taken too far.
 
I know a CFI at that airport. You guys want I should leave a flaming bag of dog poop on his porch?


It'll have to wait until after my flight review, though.
 
Jaybird180 said:
It also sounds a little like the instructor is busy trying to make the trainee into an Airline Pilot, CRM, Biz-Jet, procedures Overlord.

A case of a good thing taken too far.
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A CFI with no airline experience. We don't do it that way in the airline world.
 
Matthew said:
I know a CFI at that airport. You guys want I should leave a flaming bag of dog poop on his porch?


It'll have to wait until after my flight review, though.
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Just so you know, my dogs throw poop back.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
A CFI with no airline experience. We don't do it that way in the airline world.
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I still think the CFI is just racking up Hobbs time, for their logbook and for their employer. There is no other reason to leave the fan turning, while getting ready to go park.
 
ja_user said:
Just so you know, my dogs throw poop back.
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And their owner throws bullets...


--

Most of my flying at those airports have been outside the peak training days/hours. Once we start getting more consistent wx (instead of all-day t-storms every other day) maybe training flights will get more spread out and some of these problems will go away (the problem with clogged taxiways, not the problem with a cfi taking too long to start the taxi.)
 
But you have two guys to do it and the guy driving the bus doesn't have to take his eyes off the road.

Greg Bockelman said:
A CFI with no airline experience. We don't do it that way in the airline world.
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There are two sides to every story. Good controllers at GA airports are easy to identify. When they're working, the line-up of planes in the departure pen is short because they get them out. With the others, it can stretch well back on the taxiway.

Pa28-140 said:
As the OP, I thought it was time to weigh in here. (Sorry, this is generic and not aimed at your specific post)

First, the 2-3 minutes is accurate. Does it ALWAYS take that long? Of course not, but it is very common and causes immense problems when exits are blocked and nobody can taxi. Especially when there is a flight instructor on board who will not move the airplane because "we're teaching here". Too bad I can't make a blanket announcement "everybody hold at the ramp and standby, teaching and hyper safety management going on at the intersection'.

Second, I'm not a newbie as a pilot either and understand the importance of "not cooking an engine" or grabbing the gear handle. However, I also know when you fly into major airports, you don't stop. Why stop and camp at smaller GA airports? The effect is the same, just smaller airplanes.

Third, as a controller it is my job to keep a flow going to maximize the efficiency of the runways and taxiways. To hold airplanes at the ramp, increase spacing between landings, and send people around because of blocked taxiways is counter productive to the whole operation. If I and other controllers do those things, you can bet your britches that the complaints will be posted on this forum and the usual suspects will pile on. "Controllers not doing their job....we can do better ourselves....we don't need them....wasting gas....etc."

Fourth, when did this become common practice? Are there that many people who grab the gear handle instead of the flap handle? Is there a dire need to absolutely retract the flaps IMMEDIATELY upon clearing the runway? Does a C-172 have such a detailed checklist that it requires more than a cursory pause? When you are cleared for takeoff to you slooooowly taxi unto the runway, put on the white gloves and scarf, sit there for a long alignment check because it is YOUR runway? (some do) Biggest question: as a controller how do I know you are or are not one of those pilots who do those things? How do I keep the flow moving? How do I hit those tight slots to get you on your way? Just what is the standard? At all of the major Class B airports that I have worked it is seldom a problem. Just how does a controller at a GA airport do his job and not end up on this forum in the complaint department?

Last question: Is that how you fly at EAA Oshkosh or Sun N Fun? Thought not.
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ja_user said:
Sounds like the CFI is running up the HOBBS for their employer.
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Took the words right out of my mouth. To add fuel to the fire, the students don't do any touch and goes, even with the flight instructor on board. Every landing is a full stop, checklist at the intersection, and taxi back full length for departure. The reason sited is "safety". The few instructors that do T&Gs with students probably get 10 or more in one hour of flight training. The majority who do the full-length thing maybe get 3. Do you think that racks up the HOBBS? :yes:
 
Gordon: Let us know what happens when the Tower Chief talks with the flight school about this, because that's where the solution to your problem lies.
 
Pa28-140 said:
Took the words right out of my mouth. To add fuel to the fire, the students don't do any touch and goes, even with the flight instructor on board. Every landing is a full stop, checklist at the intersection, and taxi back full length for departure. The reason sited is "safety". The few instructors that do T&Gs with students probably get 10 or more in one hour of flight training. The majority who do the full-length thing maybe get 3. Do you think that racks up the HOBBS? :yes:
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Now that is going to start a different discussion. There is some value in full-stop and taxi back, when people are first starting to land. It certainly does rack up the Hobbs as well, but it also allows few moments for the student and CFI to "finish" the landing, discuss, and then do another take-off as separate events. Of course, most CFI's and students are capable of doing stop-goes and then Touch & goes, fairly shortly. Most people aren't practicing the takeoffs so much, as trying to complete the landing properly, all the way to a stop.

When I learned at OJC, we could normally get 4-5 landings in 1 hours. If, we kept the pattern tight and it wasn't busy. This was landing, keep it rolling and make the mid-field taxiway and the taxi back ready to go again. Only fully stopping as needed for traffic flow. Of course, some were more like 3 and some 6.

That didn't last long, and then it was full stop and takeoff (traffic permitting) and then the T&G's (with the CFI retracting the flaps) started, and obviously we got more landings in.

More valuable than all of that though, we would just go to a non-towered field and practiced where there was rarely another plane in the pattern. It was too tough to fit in power off approaches, emergency descents from 5k etc, without disrupting traffic.
 
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My CFI at OJC was always trying to maximize t/o and landings early in the game. That's what LRY, OWI and LWC are for. No sense tying up a class-d doing pattern work on a busy day when we could get in a lesson on the way to any of those airports where we basically had them to ourselves, then another lesson on the way back to OJC for one landing.

I wonder if the problem CFI(s) are fresh out of some CFI production facility and don't realize the resources within just a few minutes of flying time. I know most of the old-timer CFIs there, and they aren't the type to be time-wasters and Hobbs-padders.
 
Pa28-140 said:
Took the words right out of my mouth. To add fuel to the fire, the students don't do any touch and goes, even with the flight instructor on board. Every landing is a full stop, checklist at the intersection, and taxi back full length for departure. The reason sited is "safety". The few instructors that do T&Gs with students probably get 10 or more in one hour of flight training. The majority who do the full-length thing maybe get 3. Do you think that racks up the HOBBS? :yes:
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I've never been a fan of touch and goes either, but a full stop and taxi back? That's robbery, just do stop and goes.
 
roncachamp said:
I've never been a fan of touch and goes either, but a full stop and taxi back? That's robbery, just do stop and goes.
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Stop-and-goes take a lot more runway, and not all airports have that much, not to mention you can't sit on the runway and talk about the landing, and once you're back in the air the trainee is in flying mode, not learning mode. Full stop/taxi-back allows the instructor and trainee to discuss the landing during the taxi-back (which I do and recommend to instructor trainees be done by the instructor so the trainee can pay full attention to the instructor's comments). If you really want to do T&G's or S&G's with your trainees, at least take the plane after liftoff and fly it yourself to the downwind while the trainee listens attentively to what you're teaching. The real robbery is spending a lot of time bouncing around the pattern without any training/learning going on. And yes, in my younger days (say, when I had given less than about 1000 hours of flight training), I was guilty of those same bad training methods myself.
 
Interesting discussion and good input from all. Nice to hash out and seek opinions AND stay on track. Thanks for the input.
 
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