Flight Instructor Question

Pa28-140 said:
I wish it were that simple. This appears to be a systemic problem rather than a problem with an individual flight instructor. This is SOP at flight schools at both airports. I guess I'm looking for some written reference that I can hit them with. Beyond retracting flaps, opening cowl flaps, and changing frequencies.....what the heck can't be done on the ramp?
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Carb heat off?
 
Palmpilot said:
At Palo Alto, which has quite a short distance between the runway and the parallel taxiway, there is (or was?) a letter to airmen instructing pilots to pull far enough down the taxiway to allow one more plane room to clear the runway behind them. Maybe something like that is needed, in addition to letting the local instructors know to not take excessive time for the after landing checklist.
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I wasn't aware of that letter, but I do occasionally hear Tower ask an aircraft stopped on the PAO parallel to pull forward to make room.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Yeah, but part of the teaching should be how to get things done in an expeditious manner and not tie up traffic.

I can understand what the FAA is getting at, but that is sort of the difference between theory and the real world.
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There is in fact a difference in Theory and the real world... It is the job of the CFI to teach you the proper way to do things. If the student screws up it is on the instructor. You will naturally pickup some of the real world things as you acquire more experience.
 
It doesn't take long in a training environment, UNLESS it's the student's first or second time. Granted, 2-3 minutes is excessive, but you have to make sure that knowledge transfer has occurred.
 
jesse said:
This exact issue really annoys me at my home airport. I'm trying to teach someone to be consistent and to do things the same way from day one. If you don't beat an after-landing checklist into someone's head from the start good luck doing it later.

When you're rolling out at my airport (class C, LNK) one of many things will end up happening:

- Controller will say "Bugsmasher 1234, turn right on Kilo, taxi to the ramp with me"
Pilot should exit runway, taxi to the ramp, then run checklist
OR
- Controller will say "Bugsmasher 1234, turn right on kilo, taxi to the ramp monitor point niner"
Pilot show exit runway, switch to 121.9 while taxing, taxi to the ramp, then run the checklist
OR
- Controller will say "Bugsmasher 1234, turn right on kilo"
Pilot should exit at kilo, stop, run checklist, and wait for tower to tell them to contact ground. They usually won't until you prompt them.
OR
- Controller will say nothing and pilot exits runway on their own. Pilot then runs checklist and :rofl:waits for Tower to tell them to contact Ground. Usually tower won't until you prompt them.

It's completely random which one of those will happen. Student's ability to properly interpret that each time is rather difficult in their early stages. Seems to be worse in the last year or so.

I often see people taxing without permission or just sitting there awkwardly. I wish the Tower would just make up their mind with how they want to do things. It's just tough doing primary training when there are umpteen ways something could happen and they might not see one of them until their solo.
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I've had to wake up the tower more than once to get clearance to leave the runway. Once clear, stop, flaps up, carb heat cold, Xpndr standby, strobes off, toggle to ground (already dialed in) and continue to parking. But, I'm not a 5 hour student anymore, either. :D

PPC1052 said:
Carb heat off?
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I noted that it took a number of posts before this was called out. If I didn't do anything else I'd do this. Get the intake air to the carb filted as soon as possible to minimize injesting dirt.
 
jesse said:
What you are able to do as an experienced pilot is not what a 5 hour student is able to do.
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In our Grumman, we do touch and goes all the time, our guys go flaps 0 after touch down, carb heat off on short final, so really all they need to do is pull the mixture a inch and kill the strobes, after a couple flights they have it down.
 
Ghery said:
I've had to wake up the tower more than once to get clearance to leave the runway. Once clear, stop, flaps up, carb heat cold, Xpndr standby, strobes off, toggle to ground (already dialed in) and continue to parking. But, I'm not a 5 hour student anymore, either. :D



I noted that it took a number of posts before this was called out. If I didn't do anything else I'd do this. Get the intake air to the carb filted as soon as possible to minimize injesting dirt.
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Clearance is not needed to leave a runway. If you do not hear from the tower as to where they want you to leave clear the runway on your own and come to a complete stop once your entire airplane is past the hold short line.

One of the most common mistakes I see on flight reviews and checkouts is that people stop while they're still on the runway side.
 
MAKG1 said:
I wasn't aware of that letter, but I do occasionally hear Tower ask an aircraft stopped on the PAO parallel to pull forward to make room.
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It was on the wall next to the door at the base of the tower about twenty years ago. Whether it's still there, or whether it's sill in effect, I don't know.
 
Ok. My story now.

I know the Airport the OP is referring too, and have flown out of both of the towered airports in the area. Both have areas that if you aren't careful, you can block a lot of traffic from moving.

Tonight I was with a student into IXD, one guy in the tower, 3 others in closed pattern. One Meridian on a straight in. We are #2 behind a Cessna, and keep it in tight. Meridian is up our asses and can't see us, probably because he had his head up his ass.

We pulled off and held on the taxiway with no further instruction, we did the checklist and called ground once. Now, tower/ground is the same guy, and so I show the student how to monitor both and tower-freq is busy as hell. Pretty soon Meridian guy has landed, is taxing past us at about 20kts, we are still held, and there is instant gridlock. Garmin Test1 can't taxi, because people taxied instead of listening for instructions, we held because we had no instructions (and had to cross the active to get anywhere to park), two more guys on base can't see each other but both really want to land. One guy is landing at K34, but was announcing on IXD tower freq. By the time it was done, there was no one in the pattern, one on the runway doing a taxi-back, three in trail heading to parking, and a Meridian getting his ass ate out, and copying a number. He was still in the penalty box.

All in all, I have no issue asking for clarification and holding, but as I explained to the student. You really need to watch what everyone else is doing and pay attention. If we would have just continued taxiing (which is typical), we would have just had a bigger mess of planes.
 
Pa28-140 said:
First a little background for my question: I am a retired FAA air traffic controller. My entire career was spent at major commercial airports where small GA was the exception rather than the rule. Since retiring I have now worked at two fairly busy contract tower facilities. Both places are very active flight training airports. Here are a couple of scenarios that precede my question:

Scenario 1: Cessna 172 lands, turns off the runway at the taxiway assigned by tower, is given taxi instructions to parking and told to monitor ground. Cessna turns off the runway and stops for 2-3 minutes before continuing.

Scenario 2: Same as above except aircraft is told to turn off and contact ground control. Aircraft turns off the runway, stops, doesn't call ground for 2-3 minutes.

When queried or asked to continue without delay, the standard response (sometimes snarky) is "we're doing a checklist". :mad2: In both cases one of two things happen. First is that the intersection is blocked so that other aircraft have no place to turn off causing go arounds. Second, there is not enough room for simultaneous opposite direction taxi operations so other aircraft sit at the ramp waiting. I understand that an aircraft should not enter a taxiway without further clearance. However, when they have further instructions, since when do aircraft campout doing a post-flight checklist?? I know that if you turn off the runway and just stop at the big airports you might end up a hood ornament on an Airbus.

Besides being an ATC I've been flying for the better part of 40 years too. What's going on here? It isn't at just one airport either. I can't find any reference that says this is an accepted SOP so I am asking for input. Thanks in advance.
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I earned my private at a controlled field in the mid '70s. Normally, taxi instructions were issued prior to exiting the runway so we didn't stop until reaching the ramp. Thirty years later while working on my commercial at the same airport the drill was to stop after clearing the runway and run the post landing checklist. I questioned the practice for the same reasons you do. The instructor said that's how FSDO wants it done. As I recall, "safety" was the reason. He couldn't explain how safety was enhanced by potentially forcing another aircraft to go around.
 
Shepherd said:
During a checkride, any student that does NOT stop, and do his "cleanup" before proceeding onto the taxiway will fail the checkride. That tends to become a powerful lesson, and one that is hard to overcome.
Personally, I think it's a good habit to get into, and personally, I don't care if it does cause ATC, big business airlines and big money airports a problem. My concern, and my only concern is the plane I'm flying and the safety of the people in it. If that C-172 pilot screws the pooch because he is being pressured to do something, do you think the FAA will give a damn? It's going to be "pilot error, leave your license on the desk on your way out."

Just my humble opinion.
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What about the C-172 pilot that receives the go around instruction because you're blocking the exit? If he screws the pooch during that maneuver do you share any of the responsibility?
 
Did you ask him if the FSDO thought the slight delays might be better than the long ones that are required to scrape somebody's gear-up off the active runway (like former POA'er B. Mitchell's Bo-35 when he moved the wrong switch at Waco)?

roncachamp said:
I earned my private at a controlled field in the mid '70s. Normally, taxi instructions were issued prior to exiting the runway so we didn't stop until reaching the ramp. Thirty years later while working on my commercial at the same airport the drill was to stop after clearing the runway and run the post landing checklist. I questioned the practice for the same reasons you do. The instructor said that's how FSDO wants it done. As I recall, "safety" was the reason. He couldn't explain how safety was enhanced by potentially forcing another aircraft to go around.
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TommyG said:
Students should be taught to do it by the book, so to have a student turn off and go to the ramp because the tower says to do it, isn't the best for someone that is learning. Now as you have advanced students you can give them the leeway to follow the tower instructions if they choose to.
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Which tower instructions are optional? Is the "go around" instruction issued to the following aircraft because the first aircraft is blocking the taxiway one of them?

Not all pilots are alike, they do not do things the same. You can't expect CFIs to all be the same just as not all students are the same.
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But ATC has to treat them all the same because the controller cannot know the individual pilot's capabilities. If one pilot needs three minutes at the runway exit to run a checklist three minutes becomes the minimum spacing. Won't take many aircraft to fill the pattern that way.
 
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Ghery said:
I've had to wake up the tower more than once to get clearance to leave the runway. Once clear, stop, flaps up, carb heat cold, Xpndr standby, strobes off, toggle to ground (already dialed in) and continue to parking. But, I'm not a 5 hour student anymore, either.
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Perhaps they were not sleeping but were simply unaware that you needed a clearance to leave the runway.
 
wabower said:
Did you ask him if the FSDO thought the slight delays might be better than the long ones that are required to scrape somebody's gear-up off the active runway (like former POA'er B. Mitchell's Bo-35 when he moved the wrong switch at Waco)?
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Nope.
 
How exactly is one going to cause an airplane to have to go around if you stop after the hold short line to run the after landing checklist?
 
jesse said:
How exactly is one going to cause an airplane to have to go around if you stop after the hold short line to run the after landing checklist?
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The guy landing behind you can't expedite his departure from the runway, so the guy on final can't land, due to the runway being occupied by the guy behind you..


| | X |
------------------------------- |
X | <----X
------------------------------- |

ASCII art anyone?
 
jesse said:
How exactly is one going to cause an airplane to have to go around if you stop after the hold short line to run the after landing checklist?
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The next guy can't get off the runway so the third guy has to go around.
 
ja_user said:
The guy landing behind you can't expedite his departure from the runway, so the guy on final can't land, due to the runway being occupied by the guy behind you..


| | X |
------------------------------- |
X | <----X
------------------------------- |

ASCII art anyone?
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Unless the guy behind you is touching down on the runway at the same time you did that won't be a factor. It doesn't take long enough to cause that plus many airports have multiple viable exits.
 
jesse said:
Unless the guy behind you is touching down on the runway at the same time you did that won't be a factor. It doesn't take long enough to cause that plus many airports have multiple viable exits.
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If Taxi off and run the checklist is done properly, it doesn't take that long. If they are just burning Hobbs time discussing things, it can gum up the whole show...

I have seen it happen, normally it is at the mid-field turn off, causing the 2nd guy to have to taxi all the way to the end, and the 3rd guy to go around because they didn't get a 360 or s-turns in there soon enough.
 
roncachamp said:
What about the C-172 pilot that receives the go around instruction because you're blocking the exit? If he screws the pooch during that maneuver do you share any of the responsibility?
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Why should I? As the guy in the C-172 sitting at the taxi hold cleaning up my airplane per current FSDO requirements, I'm doing what I should be doing. The tower needs to do a better job of handling aircraft.

Just like any aviation accident, the chain of events goes much farther back then the guy sitting at the hold line. Take it back to where things REALLY got screwed up: The politicians/planners/designers who insist on 3 bids, low price, and don't plan anything for the future growth.

I flew into an airport a couple months ago where they had torn up 3 of the 6 turn offs for their only runway. When I asked the airport manager why, he told me they save money not having to pave or plow the turn offs. If you miss the turn off in the middle of the runway, you have to taxi all the way to the end, and taxi all the way back to the FBO.
 
Shepherd said:
Why should I?
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Because if you hadn't blocked the runway exit for three minutes the go around would not have been issued.

As the guy in the C-172 sitting at the taxi hold cleaning up my airplane per current FSDO requirements, I'm doing what I should be doing. The tower needs to do a better job of handling aircraft.
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Fine. Tower now assumes all landing aircraft require three minutes at the exit and spaces traffic accordingly.
 
I'll toss a question onto the bonfire...

Which items on the after-landing checklist are human-survival critical that they can't be done away from the runway?

(Just throwing it out there...)

Jesse can attest that I tend to have flows (and probably "too much" familiarity with my aircraft) so I just reconfigure as I'm rolling off, and he commented that I'd get my hand slapped in a retract for reaching for that flap handle... which, of course, I agreed with...

I didn't reconfigure flaps while rolling without a visual confirmation and call out of the flap handle back in the days when I putted around in a 172RG most of the time...

But... anyway... I get what Jesse is shooting for with new students, but at some point you should be able to walk and chew gum at the same time...

But I can't think of anything that pressing on the after-landing checklists for the aircraft most of us fly...

So the darn carb heat is on? So what? Maybe that one will bite you... since on your NEXT flight all the dirt you sucked into your engine might cause an engine failure... but I highly doubt it unless you're taxiing on dirt... and how many folks are doing that these days?

But most of the rest of it... not flight or safety critical, or when it is (flash blinding the guy waiting there in his dark cockpit with your strobes) it's usually pretty obvious.

Lean for taxi? Well, if you're that out of tune with hearing your engine blubbing and chugging and you like fouling plugs... you'll figure that one out the first time you have to pull a plug and clean it...

Granted, the 182 I fly isn't exactly known for being ultra-complex to fly, which seems to also add to its ability to maintain a pretty darn low accident rate from much more than "stupid pilot tricks". Some of you fly some more complex stuff... and you'd have CRITICAL items on an after-landing checklist, but probably not more than two... maybe three. If you can flow those... you're done... get out of the way and re-write that checklist so it's the CRITICAL stuff taxiing off, and you can move the non-critical stuff to another location, right?

Again, just playing devil's advocate. It's not how I operate... but it COULD be done... and there's very little on an after-landing that's life-safety/mission-critical.
 
Disarm the ejection seat? :)

At work, I believe we have to secure engines #1 and #4 to prevent dirt ingestion into the telescope cavity -- not life-critical, but it's mission critical. Taxiing is done exclusively on #2 and #3, including the turn-off.
 
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I'm with Ron and others clear the runway, and stop
run a very simple flow...flaps , transponder, lights etc....then worry about the checklist when you can get to it.

with students...after time this usually evolves into "California roll" type of stop when clear..

just do what makes sense..at some big busy airports stopping is not exactly welcomed with a big warm hug..be prepared to comply with a taxi instruction first ( and not hit something) then worry about the ups and afters...no reason to overthink any of this
 
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Greg Bockelman said:
:confused::confused:
Since when do you need clearance to leave the runway?
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jesse said:
Clearance is not needed to leave a runway. If you do not hear from the tower as to where they want you to leave clear the runway on your own and come to a complete stop once your entire airplane is past the hold short line.

One of the most common mistakes I see on flight reviews and checkouts is that people stop while they're still on the runway side.
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When I want to use the cross runway as my exit it is generally considered bad form to simply turn off on it without a clearance. Now, I could just keep on trundling down that 5500 foot runway to the far end and take the next taxiway, but that's out of my way.

There is no one right answer. As a professor friend of mine oftens answers questions, "It depends".

Looks at the airport diagram for OLM in the attached file. Land on rwy 35. You might exit on G (I was directed to by the tower last month, my wife really noticed the extra braking to make it, I wasn't expecting to exit there, so I wasn't really slowing down after touching down). You (I) typically exit on 8/26 then F then left on E to parking. Or, you can keep going, exit on D, then right on E to parking. Given that the club planes are in the first hangar after turning left on E coming off F, you can see where going on down to D is out of the way.

Exit on G or D, no permission needed. Exit on 8/26, you need a clearance. It's a runway.
 

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roncachamp said:
I earned my private at a controlled field in the mid '70s. Normally, taxi instructions were issued prior to exiting the runway so we didn't stop until reaching the ramp. Thirty years later while working on my commercial at the same airport the drill was to stop after clearing the runway and run the post landing checklist. I questioned the practice for the same reasons you do. The instructor said that's how FSDO wants it done. As I recall, "safety" was the reason. He couldn't explain how safety was enhanced by potentially forcing another aircraft to go around.
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Why would another plane be forced to go around if you stopped for 15-20 seconds after clearing the runway?
 
roncachamp said:
What about the C-172 pilot that receives the go around instruction because you're blocking the exit? If he screws the pooch during that maneuver do you share any of the responsibility?
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Why would tower issue go-around instructions just because a plane is stopped on the cold side of the hold short line?
 
roncachamp said:
The next guy can't get off the runway so the third guy has to go around.
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I can't imagine that stopping for 15-20 seconds to clean up will cause that unless the minimum runway separation was already violated. Light planes just don't go 3000 feet at post-touchdown speeds in that amount of time.
 
Ron Levy said:
Why would another plane be forced to go around if you stopped for 15-20 seconds after clearing the runway?
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Review the OP. The time was two to three minutes, not 15-20 seconds. The first aircraft is blocking the exit, the second aircraft can't exit the runway, the third aircraft goes around.
 
Ron Levy said:
I can't imagine that stopping for 15-20 seconds to clean up will cause that unless the minimum runway separation was already violated. Light planes just don't go 3000 feet at post-touchdown speeds in that amount of time.
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Review the OP:
Pa28-140 said:
First a little background for my question: I am a retired FAA air traffic controller. My entire career was spent at major commercial airports where small GA was the exception rather than the rule. Since retiring I have now worked at two fairly busy contract tower facilities. Both places are very active flight training airports. Here are a couple of scenarios that precede my question:

Scenario 1: Cessna 172 lands, turns off the runway at the taxiway assigned by tower, is given taxi instructions to parking and told to monitor ground. Cessna turns off the runway and stops for 2-3 minutes before continuing.

Scenario 2: Same as above except aircraft is told to turn off and contact ground control. Aircraft turns off the runway, stops, doesn't call ground for 2-3 minutes.

When queried or asked to continue without delay, the standard response (sometimes snarky) is "we're doing a checklist". :mad2: In both cases one of two things happen. First is that the intersection is blocked so that other aircraft have no place to turn off causing go arounds. Second, there is not enough room for simultaneous opposite direction taxi operations so other aircraft sit at the ramp waiting. I understand that an aircraft should not enter a taxiway without further clearance. However, when they have further instructions, since when do aircraft campout doing a post-flight checklist?? I know that if you turn off the runway and just stop at the big airports you might end up a hood ornament on an Airbus.

Besides being an ATC I've been flying for the better part of 40 years too. What's going on here? It isn't at just one airport either. I can't find any reference that says this is an accepted SOP so I am asking for input. Thanks in advance.
Click to expand...
 
roncachamp said:
Review the OP. The time was two to three minutes, not 15-20 seconds. The first aircraft is blocking the exit, the second aircraft can't exit the runway, the third aircraft goes around.
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It takes you 2-3 minutes to turn off the carb heat, turn off the fuel pump, retract the wing flaps, open the cowl flaps, lean the mixture, note the time and switch the radio to ground? If that's true, I would say that your competence as a pilot is questionable. OTOH, I think we all said that if the OP's case where it took 2-3 minutes is accurate, then the problem is/are the trainee/instructor involved, not the practice of clearing and cleaning before taxiing further.
 
Ron Levy said:
It takes you 2-3 minutes to turn off the carb heat, turn off the fuel pump, retract the wing flaps, open the cowl flaps, lean the mixture, note the time and switch the radio to ground? If that's true, I would say that your competence as a pilot is questionable. OTOH, I think we all said that if the OP's case where it took 2-3 minutes is accurate, then the problem is/are the trainee/instructor involved, not the practice of clearing and cleaning before taxiing further.
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See post # 2..........:mad2::mad2::mad2::rolleyes:
 
Sounds like the CFI is running up the HOBBS for their employer.
 
I work in the same one runway environment, have instructed a/c to "turn left at "C" taxi to the ramp/parking remain this freq; only to look back and see them parked at the taxiway. Unsettling when you needed them to continue to ramp to maintain flow of traffic outbnd on parallel; in other words pass in fnt of another a/c. If they complied there would not be a traffic issue. Now of course, we have to go back to the a/c that did not comply with instructions, to hold short of parallel, give way to a/c taxing out. Inform that a/c that the exiting a/c is holding for them..... meanwhile three guys have called you inbnd, two of which say they're over the water for landing (I work on an island...we are surrounded by water!) Appch is calling with two jet inbnds.....you savvy?
Now, the same is true regarding departing a/c that call READY for departure only to slowly lineup and pause for? (final checklist???) I had them sit for 30-55 seconds (building courage??), then start t/o roll. Try that at a class C/B airport and you'll find yourself with a xcelled t/o clrnc and taxi instructions off the runway. When issued the "taxi to the ramp... clrnc", if you want/req something other than that please advise. I'm expecting you to comply with instructions given and acknowledged Look, were all members of the same fraternity(gender neutral for those PC police types)...aviation. The guys working the mic's are NOT the people working in FAA HQ's....we're friendlies!!
 
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