Flight following questions

[GauzeGuy]

1. When being advised to change frequency, usually it is to contact a new controller on the different frequency, but occasionally I've noticed that one controller may handle multiple center frequencies. When getting "Bugsmasher 123AB change to my frequency 123.45" is it appropriate to acknowledge and just switch, or should I acknowledge and contact on the new frequency?

2. Upon initial request for FF, I usually will say "Bigcity Approach, Bugsmasher 123AB, request." Is getting everything out at once preferable? ("Bigcity Approach, Bugsmasher 123AB 7 west of Smalltown, 6500, flight following podunk muni")

3. For flight planning purposes, is there any sure way to figure out what altitude would keep one within radar contact? For example, even though the published MEA for V4 between TXC and GLD is 7000, center has told me a few times they will be unable to keep radar contact below 10000. I'm sure there are other examples of that as well.

 

[Clark1961]

1. When being advised to change frequency, usually it is to contact a new controller on the different frequency, but occasionally I've noticed that one controller may handle multiple center frequencies. When getting "Bugsmasher 123AB change to my frequency 123.45" is it appropriate to acknowledge and just switch, or should I acknowledge and contact on the new frequency?

2. Upon initial request for FF, I usually will say "Bigcity Approach, Bugsmasher 123AB, request." Is getting everything out at once preferable? ("Bigcity Approach, Bugsmasher 123AB 7 west of Smalltown, 6500, flight following podunk muni")

3. For flight planning purposes, is there any sure way to figure out what altitude would keep one within radar contact? For example, even though the published MEA for V4 between TXC and GLD is 7000, center has told me a few times they will be unable to keep radar contact below 10000. I'm sure there are other examples of that as well.

1. I acknowledge on the old freq and then contact on the new. Other people just contact on the new. No biggie either way unless things are busy.

2. I omit "request" since they know you aren't calling to discuss the latest movie reviews. I used to give all info but that just doesn't seem to work.

3. Nope. MVA's are a closely guarded national sekret.

 

[saracelica]

2. I don't give all the information. As my CFII would say "Gotta give the controller a chance to pick up his pen/pencil." So I do *Bugsmasher 123 request* Then they say "Bugsmasher go ahead" then I tell them what I want.

 

[saracelica]

I'm not sure it really matters. This weekend I was out flying a XC and the controllers all seemed just happy to have a job. So as long as you get out what you want and they understand it's all good.

 

[EppyGA]

Generally if I hear, "xxx approach on MY frequency xxx.xx" I acknowledge the new frequency and just make the change without contact since it is the same person.

Initial call up for me is warrior xxxxxx request.

 

[redtail]

1. I acknowledge on the old freq and then contact on the new. Other people just contact on the new. No biggie either way unless things are busy.

2. I omit "request" since they know you aren't calling to discuss the latest movie reviews. I used to give all info but that just doesn't seem to work.

3. Nope. MVA's are a closely guarded national sekret.

Same here. "New York Approach, Skyhawk 5459D".

Skyhawk 5459D, go ahead.


I used to rattle off the whole thing, only to have the controller say...."repeat" or "say again". Then I learned the better way.

 

[poadeleted20]

Generally if I hear, "xxx approach on MY frequency xxx.xx" I acknowledge the new frequency and just make the change without contact since it is the same person.

You still need a quick call to make sure you are on the right new freq. "Tiger 22RL is up" or something like that will do. If you don't, don't be surprised if they call you to see if you're there.

Initial call up for me is warrior xxxxxx request.

I'm with Clark -- no "request".

 

[flyingron]

If you're too low they'll often warn you or suggest an attitude.
I'm with everybody else. I omit the request. If the controller is expecting you, then he's expecting you. If he is NOT expecting you, it's implicitly "What the hell do you want?"

One thing I'd add to your call up is the altitude that you wish to get flight following for. When I omit it they always seem to ask me around here. So I'll stick an "at this altitude" or "at 6500" into the request for flight following.

About half time time I get asked what the identifier for a Navion is. I usually give the controller the benefit of the doubt and omit telling them. It's not as hard as it used to be since they switched it from N145 to NAVI about a dozen years ago.

 

[numl0ck]

Same here. "New York Approach, Skyhawk 5459D".

Skyhawk 5459D, go ahead.


I used to rattle off the whole thing, only to have the controller say...."repeat" or "say again". Then I learned the better way.

This is what I do as well. Give them time to get ready. You may have talked while they were listening on another sector or controller change-out, coffee break...who knows what's happening on those dark rooms.

 

[roncachamp]

1. When being advised to change frequency, usually it is to contact a new controller on the different frequency, but occasionally I've noticed that one controller may handle multiple center frequencies. When getting "Bugsmasher 123AB change to my frequency 123.45" is it appropriate to acknowledge and just switch, or should I acknowledge and contact on the new frequency?

Acknowledge on the new frequency, "Bugsmasher 3AB made the switch."

2. Upon initial request for FF, I usually will say "Bigcity Approach, Bugsmasher 123AB, request." Is getting everything out at once preferable? ("Bigcity Approach, Bugsmasher 123AB 7 west of Smalltown, 6500, flight following podunk muni")

Drop "request", it's understood you have a request else you wouldn't be calling. Just say it, and keep it short. "Seven west of Smalltown" can be shortened to just "Smalltown", all you want is to give the controller an idea of where you are.

3. For flight planning purposes, is there any sure way to figure out what altitude would keep one within radar contact? For example, even though the published MEA for V4 between TXC and GLD is 7000, center has told me a few times they will be unable to keep radar contact below 10000. I'm sure there are other examples of that as well.

No. MEAs are based on terrain, obstacles, communications and navigation coverage. Radar is not a factor.

 

[eetrojan]

When checking in with the next controller after a handoff, would it be useful to simply report in with your current altitude, something like "Podunk Approach, Bugmasher 123, Level at 6000"?

 

[roncachamp]

3. Nope. MVA's are a closely guarded national sekret.

Pretty much, but not so for MEAs, and neither is a guarantee of radar coverage.

 

[flyingron]

When checking in with the next controller after a handoff, would it be useful to simply report in with your current altitude, something like "Podunk Approach, Bugmasher 123, Level at 6000"?

Yep, if it's a handoff just do it like IFR (even if they terminate radar service first). Seymour approach Navion 5327K level 5500.


However sometimes they aren't arranging things but just pointing out a frequency you can try next. "For further advisories contact Washington Center on 135.05."

 

[roncachamp]

When checking in with the next controller after a handoff, would it be useful to simply report in with your current altitude, something like "Podunk Approach, Bugmasher 123, Level at 6000"?

Yes. Mode C must be verified with each new radar facility, so if you don't state it on the initial call to that facility the controller must tell you to say altitude. There's no need to say it when calling a new controller within the same facility but most pilots do.

 

[poadeleted20]

Pretty much, but not so for MEAs, and neither is a guarantee of radar coverage.

To expand a bit, MVA's are based solely on obstruction clearance. The controller must then determine whether or not s/he has adequate radar coverage to give vectors. As such, controllers are not permitted to give vectors below the MVA, but might still be unable to give them above the MVA if for whatever reason they do not also have adequate radar coverage in that area at your desired altitude.

MINIMUM VECTORING ALTITUDE (MVA)- The lowest MSL altitude at which an IFR aircraft will be vectored by a radar controller, except as otherwise authorized for radar approaches, departures, and missed approaches. The altitude meets IFR obstacle clearance criteria. It may be lower than the published MEA along an airway or J-route segment. It may be utilized for radar vectoring only upon the controller's determination that an adequate radar return is being received from the aircraft being controlled. Charts depicting minimum vectoring altitudes are normally available only to the controllers and not to pilots.

 

[roncachamp]

To expand a bit, MVA's are based solely on obstruction clearance. The controller must then determine whether or not s/he has adequate radar coverage to give vectors. As such, controllers are not permitted to give vectors below the MVA, but might still be unable to give them above the MVA if for whatever reason they do not also have adequate radar coverage in that area at your desired altitude.

To expand a but further than that, MVAs are based on obstruction clearance criteria and controlled airspace.

 

[GauzeGuy]

Thanks for the replies.

A follow up question: It seems about a third of the time, the heavies will also check in with a heading -- is that a standard requirement at any point? I only rarely hear a controller give a "say heading" request.

 

[MAKG1]

How many heavies have you heard "check in" for VFR flight following?

Odds are, they are being vectored to final, or out of a departure area, as part of an IFR flight. When you get handed off with any restriction, you should advise the new controller of the restriction (and you'll often be asked to do that).

 

[poadeleted20]

A follow up question: It seems about a third of the time, the heavies will also check in with a heading -- is that a standard requirement at any point? I only rarely hear a controller give a "say heading" request.

While it isn't required, it's a generally accepted practice to check in with your heading as well as altitude when you're on a radar vector (VFR or IFR). That ensures the ball hasn't been dropped between the controllers during the handoff -- and yes, it happens from time to time. If you're on an "own nav" clearance (e.g., an airway, procedure, or direct->fix), it's not important since then you are responsible for your nav, not the controller.

 

[roncachamp]

A follow up question: It seems about a third of the time, the heavies will also check in with a heading -- is that a standard requirement at any point? I only rarely hear a controller give a "say heading" request.

Many pilots that are on an assigned heading elect to state the heading when checking in on a new frequency. Shouldn't be necessary, that information should have been relayed by the previous controller if it is not part of an established procedure. Sometimes it's hard to relay that information, the receiving controller is too busy talking to pilots to answer the phone. It's not supposed to be done, but controllers will tell pilots to relay the heading on initial contact with the new controller.

 

[murphey]

Pretty much, but not so for MEAs, and neither is a guarantee of radar coverage.

Advanage Clark & I have about GauzeGuy's radar coverage question - we live in the same area. Going east from the Colorado Front Range (Ft Collins south to Pueblo) Denver Low En-route sets the coverage at 10K (sometimes it's as low as 8K I've found going westbound). Ground out there is flat, about 4K-5K MSL until you hit the Appalatian hills. Most of the VFR traffic is 6K-9K MSL and there's not much of it until further east of the CO-KS state line. IFR or flying higher? No problems.

 

[roncachamp]

Advanage Clark & I have about GauzeGuy's radar coverage question - we live in the same area. Going east from the Colorado Front Range (Ft Collins south to Pueblo) Denver Low En-route sets the coverage at 10K (sometimes it's as low as 8K I've found going westbound). Ground out there is flat, about 4K-5K MSL until you hit the Appalatian hills. Most of the VFR traffic is 6K-9K MSL and there's not much of it until further east of the CO-KS state line. IFR or flying higher? No problems.

I don't understand. Are you asking a question? Who is "Denver Low En-route" and what is this coverage it is setting? Where are the Appalatian hills?

 

[jpower]

Hey, here's a question. I was flying up by Philly to Brandywine a good while back. I was on flight following, and the controller said "report field in sight on 1XX.XX." I figured "ok, when I see the field, I'll tune the new frequency and report it," but about a minute later I realized he might want me to switch frequencies now, so I punched it in and hit the handy monitor button. Several minutes later, they said on the new frequency "no traffic observed between you and Brandywine, so bye."

When would you have switched frequencies?

 

[MAKG1]

I would have asked.

And that phraseology is really, really nonstandard, to say the least. The usual is "Bugsmasher 123AB radar service terminated squawk VFR."

 

[jpower]

I would have asked.

And that phraseology is really, really nonstandard, to say the least. The usual is "Bugsmasher 123AB radar service terminated squawk VFR."

Well yes. That was my paraphrase for laziness. It went more like "NXXXXX, no traffic observed between your position and Brandywine. Radar services terminated, squawk VFR, good day."

In retrospect I certainly should have asked, but I didn't even think about it in the moment for whatever reason.

 

[murphey]

How many heavies have you heard "check in" for VFR flight following?

Odds are, they are being vectored to final, or out of a departure area, as part of an IFR flight. When you get handed off with any restriction, you should advise the new controller of the restriction (and you'll often be asked to do that).

Understand that the OP (and Clark & me & many others here) live & fly under/near DEN Class B. The "generic" (check the DEN terminal or sectinal) is 128.25 for east-side approach & departure near DEN. FTG gets 128.25 which is Class B Departure eastbound, APA gets 132.75 and then at 8K will be switched to 128.25 (eastbound) or 128.45 (southbound).

Because these 2 freqs are Class B we hear everything.

 

[poadeleted20]

Hey, here's a question. I was flying up by Philly to Brandywine a good while back. I was on flight following, and the controller said "report field in sight on 1XX.XX." I figured "ok, when I see the field, I'll tune the new frequency and report it," but about a minute later I realized he might want me to switch frequencies now, so I punched it in and hit the handy monitor button. Several minutes later, they said on the new frequency "no traffic observed between you and Brandywine, so bye."

When would you have switched frequencies?

I would have asked for clarification immediately as to whether the controller wanted me to switch to that freq now or later.

 

[danhagan]

2. I omit "request" since they know you aren't calling to discuss the latest movie reviews. I used to give all info but that just doesn't seem to work.

You still need a quick call to make sure you are on the right new freq. "Tiger 22RL is up" or something like that will do. If you don't, don't be surprised if they call you to see if you're there.

I'm with Clark -- no "request".

Drop "request", it's understood you have a request else you wouldn't be calling.

Had read on AVweb and confirmed with ABQ CTR that they preferred it (the "request" part) since they cover most of the state (large sectors). If you call up with call sign and omit request, they (ABQ CTR) indicated they would initially be looking for AC already setup on scope for IFR or VFR FF. According to them, it was easier ("request") and if busy they could ignore you for a few seconds and get back to you rather than just drop or drop ignore with the "unable FF".

 

[roncachamp]

Had read on AVweb and confirmed with ABQ CTR that they preferred it (the "request" part) since they cover most of the state (large sectors). If you call up with call sign and omit request, they (ABQ CTR) indicated they would initially be looking for AC already setup on scope for IFR or VFR FF. According to them, it was easier ("request") and if busy they could ignore you for a few seconds and get back to you rather than just drop or drop ignore with the "unable FF".

Where sectors are large traffic tends to be light. Perhaps they're lonely.

 

[bluesky74656]

I think I picked this up from here, but no one's brought it up yet. The guidance in the AIM is either to make your initial call up without your request if it is long, or with the request if it is short. For VFR Flight Following I can make the initial request short:

"Cleveland Approach, Cessna 9837L, request VFR Flight Following"
"Cessna 9837L, go ahead"
"Cleveland Approach, Cessna 9837L is a Cessna 172, 3 miles east of the Chardon VOR at 3500 ( climbing to 7,500 if applicable), request VFR flight following to Franklin County, F-K-L"

So far I can't remember that confusing any controllers.

 

[murphey]

I don't understand. Are you asking a question? Who is "Denver Low En-route" and what is this coverage it is setting? Where are the Appalatian hills?

Steven, you of all people I would have expected to know the lingo....

FAA divides airspace into Terminal, Low En-route and High En-route. Grab a sectional and IFR charts and take a look. IFR routes are different colors for high & low en-route. Most of us GA types, when flying IFR, are handled by Low En-route controllers and follow the Low En-route routings. When asking for flight following, we belong to the Low En-route controllers.

ATC radar can be set for varying sweep altitudes. Around Denver and along the Front Range (Ft Collins/Greeley area south to Pueblo), the bottom of the sweep is close to ground. I've never been denied FF in that area.

Going east, more than 30 nm, the bottom of the sweep is more like 5K AGL or 10K MSL because there's so little traffic at the lower altitudes. So when the controller states "I've lost you on radar" or "I won't be able to pick you up for another 15 miles or so" that translates to the sweep altitude. Can they reset it? Of course. But that's an entirely different discussion.

You ask Who is "Denver Low En-route"?, ZDV is physically located in Longmont, CO. I've spent a fair amount of time there as a consultant, way back in the Dark Ages. (Does anyone remember "Sector Suite"?)

As for "Appalatian hills", it's a spelling thang. Try Appalachians. But when the highest elevation there is 6,683' and I live at 5280', them thar thangs are hills.

 

[roncachamp]

FAA divides airspace into Terminal, Low En-route and High En-route.

No it doesn't. Airspace is divided into classes; the US uses Classes A, B, C, D, E, and G.

Grab a sectional and IFR charts and take a look. IFR routes are different colors for high & low en-route. Most of us GA types, when flying IFR, are handled by Low En-route controllers and follow the Low En-route routings. When asking for flight following, we belong to the Low En-route controllers.

No, the division between low altitude and high altitude enroute ATC is generally at FL240, the division between high and low enroute charts is FL180.

ATC radar can be set for varying sweep altitudes. Around Denver and along the Front Range (Ft Collins/Greeley area south to Pueblo), the bottom of the sweep is close to ground. I've never been denied FF in that area.

No, controllers can set altitude filters that will not show encoded altitude returns above or below selected altitudes, and select or deselect primary returns (if available at all), but that has nothing to do with the radar sweep.

Going east, more than 30 nm, the bottom of the sweep is more like 5K AGL or 10K MSL because there's so little traffic at the lower altitudes. So when the controller states "I've lost you on radar" or "I won't be able to pick you up for another 15 miles or so" that translates to the sweep altitude. Can they reset it? Of course. But that's an entirely different discussion.

Nonsense.

You ask Who is "Denver Low En-route"?, ZDV is physically located in Longmont, CO. I've spent a fair amount of time there as a consultant, way back in the Dark Ages. (Does anyone remember "Sector Suite"?)

Consulting on what? I remember Sector Suites. I remember a very nice model of them. They didn't make it.

As for "Appalatian hills", it's a spelling thang. Try Appalachians. But when the highest elevation there is 6,683' and I live at 5280', them thar thangs are hills.

Head east from Colorado and you'll find a lot of ground well below "4K-5K MSL" before you hit the Appalachian Mountains.

 

[JoeSelch]

I think I picked this up from here, but no one's brought it up yet. The guidance in the AIM is either to make your initial call up without your request if it is long, or with the request if it is short. For VFR Flight Following I can make the initial request short:

"Cleveland Approach, Cessna 9837L, request VFR Flight Following"
"Cessna 9837L, go ahead"
"Cleveland Approach, Cessna 9837L is a Cessna 172, 3 miles east of the Chardon VOR at 3500 ( climbing to 7,500 if applicable), request VFR flight following to Franklin County, F-K-L"

So far I can't remember that confusing any controllers.

How do they respond if you leave off "request VFR flight following" in the first call-up? And, would this change anything in your second call?

 

[tmyers]

They usually just respond back with my N number then I let them know my location altitude and request for flight following

 

[bluesky74656]

How do they respond if you leave off "request VFR flight following" in the first call-up? And, would this change anything in your second call?

Fair point. I figured it let them know right away that I wasn't a currently controlled aircraft and what kind of information to expect in the next call. But I've never actually had a controller get confused before I started doing it, either.

 

[Jim Logajan]

Had read on AVweb and confirmed with ABQ CTR that they preferred it (the "request" part) since they cover most of the state (large sectors). If you call up with call sign and omit request, they (ABQ CTR) indicated they would initially be looking for AC already setup on scope for IFR or VFR FF. According to them, it was easier ("request") and if busy they could ignore you for a few seconds and get back to you rather than just drop or drop ignore with the "unable FF".

Where I fly, one contacts "Cascade Approach" which is a TRACON that handles both Eugene and Medford Oregon - and the website for the local NATCA union actually has this as their recommendation, which I assume also applies to FF requests:

On initial call include: Type aircraft, full callsign, approximate location, altitude, and ATIS code. Why? The FAA requires us to get all of this information from you. If you make it a habit to provide it on initial contact we avoid tying up the frequency while we ask you for this information. This allows us to provide better service to you. Examples: "Cascade Approach, Cessna 94299 one-five north at four thousand, landing with Lima.", "Cascade Approach, Arrow 377LC over Drain at three thousand five hundred, inbound with Zulu."
​

http://eug.natca.net/fly eug.htm
http://eug.natca.net/fly mfr.htm

But during training flights into EUG my CFI had me simply initiate contact with "with request," followed by a short information exchange dialog providing details and FF request. I've also done it the way the AIM and the above paragraph suggests. When the controller does catch it all on first call up it does marginally expedite things, but on occasion I have had to repeat it all.

 

[Jayhawk]

Haven't had a lot of experience with FF so far, but both times on XC lessons when I included all the info on the call up I got a "Standby" and had to repeat everything. On my solo XC I tried "Denver Approach, Gobosh 1277K, VFR request" for the initial call up and it seemed to go a lot more smoothly. Have to omit the VFR request after reading this thread, though.

 

[MAKG1]

Yeah, if I can hear there is a lot of traffic on Approach, I'll just give my callsign and wait for them to get back to me. Otherwise, it's difficult to get a word in edgewise, and it only makes it harder if I have to repeat myself due to a "stand by."

 

[EppyGA]

You still need a quick call to make sure you are on the right new freq. "Tiger 22RL is up" or something like that will do. If you don't, don't be surprised if they call you to see if you're there.

I'm with Clark -- no "request".

Actually I've had them tell me not to call. Usually happens when I'm with Greer.

 

[poadeleted20]

Fair point. I figured it let them know right away that I wasn't a currently controlled aircraft

I've found the controllers usually know who they're controlling.