Flight Following is Fantastic

[roncachamp]

One point that has not been made (in favor of FF but a warning too): If ATC loses you unexpectedly, like you unexpectedly descend below radar or stop talking to them on the radio, that will trigger standard missing aircraft procedures. So if you stop hearing ATC because they or you missed a frequency change, ask someone for a relay, find the nearest ATC frequency in your magic box or in a castellated box on a low altitude chart. You need to restore contact even if it is just to ask them to cancel FF.

ATC is to initiate a search in the event of an unexpected loss of radio and radar.

Similarly, if a layer is pushing you down, let them know. They will usually lose you on radar before they lose comm contact, so they will say "Radar service terminated, squawk VFR" but it is much better to let them know you plan to descend. They know what their radar coverage is everywhere in their sector and will advise you accordingly.

If they lose you on radar the phraseology is "radar contact lost". "Radar service terminated" is used when radar contact still exists but radar service can no longer be provided.

 

[roncachamp]

That's not quite accurate. The "two way communication" bit is for a controller that has jurisdiction over the airspace (tower for class D or approach for that airport for Class C). Just being in communication with some other facility doesn't count.

Just being on flight following wouldn't allow you to just bust through a Class D airport's airspace unless the tower cleared you. The controller giving you flight following could call up on your behalf and get such clearance but unless that exchange has occured and you were specially told so then you're not cleared into the Class D.

With Class D one usually is flying well over the top so often no clearance is required.

With Class C if your're flying into that airport and that's the approach you're talking to them you should be good, but if you're just passing through I wouldn't just bust into that airspace unless the approach controller knows and has acknowledged your intention to do so, otherwise the assumption is that you will stay outside the Class C. Contacting a Class C airspace's approach controller to get flight following is not the same as contacting the controller to ask for permission to enter the airspace or land at the parent airport.

A quick search shows many posts from people busted for airspace violations by assuming flight following gave them "clearance"

If you're on flight following the radar controller is required to coordinate your transition of Class D airspace with the control tower. If you're approaching Class C airspace and you're still on the frequency of a radar controller other than one who is responsible for that Class C airspace that controller has forgotten about you.

 

[roncachamp]

This is in relation to pilots flying filed IFR flight plans.

What do you base that on?

 

[roncachamp]

The point is just that someone providing you flight following is not "required" to automatically clear you through any airspace ahead and this is where people go into trouble. Remember, the controller providing FF doesn't really know precisely what you're doing unless you told them. They know you are going to airport X but that's about it. If there's a swiss cheese matrix of airspace ahead of you the assumption is that you will steer clear unless you've asked for and received clearance.

You're wrong.

 

[Henning]

Unless my flight is a low level work flight or just very local, I'm on FF, it doesn't make sense not to be.

 

[roncachamp]

I'm on VFR flight following to airport X far away. 30 nm ahead of me are 3 class D airports and one class C that my current heading would have me clip the edge of, but I can also easily fly a few nm around them. Does the controller:

A -- Use their psychic powers to know my exact intended route through this area and coordinate with the correct facilities to get me clearance.

B -- Call up all the responsible facilities and get me clearance everywhere since he doesn't actually have psychic powers but is somehow expected to still make sure I'm cleared through all this airspace, or

C -- Know that I'm VFR and will stay clear of all the en-route Class D and Class C unless I specifically ask him to help clear me through. If I ask he may help or may say he's unable due to workload.

I assure you that if I assumed A or B and just flew right on through there would be problems.

VFR flight following is purely a workload permitting service. The controller is not "required" to do much of anything and the VFR pilot is not relieved of any duties for either traffic separation or airspace clearance. Flight following is simply supplemental assistance for the VFR pilot. A VFR pilot should never 'assume' clearance. As discussed at length, the controller providing flight following will often help but if you're not cleared you're not cleared.

You're saying it's impossible for controllers to do what they are clearly required to do and have been doing for decades. Where did you come up with this nonsense? There's nothing difficult about coordinating the transition of Class D airspace.

 

[airdale]

ATC is to initiate a search in the event of an unexpected loss of radio and radar.

Thank you for the clarification. That is what I meant of course, but I didn't say it clearly.

 

[Henning]

That's not quite accurate. The "two way communication" bit is for a controller that has jurisdiction over the airspace (tower for class D or approach for that airport for Class C). Just being in communication with some other facility doesn't count.

Just being on flight following wouldn't allow you to just bust through a Class D airport's airspace unless the tower cleared you. The controller giving you flight following could call up on your behalf and get such clearance but unless that exchange has occured and you were specially told so then you're not cleared into the Class D.

With Class D one usually is flying well over the top so often no clearance is required.

With Class C if your're flying into that airport and that's the approach you're talking to them you should be good, but if you're just passing through I wouldn't just bust into that airspace unless the approach controller knows and has acknowledged your intention to do so, otherwise the assumption is that you will stay outside the Class C. Contacting a Class C airspace's approach controller to get flight following is not the same as contacting the controller to ask for permission to enter the airspace or land at the parent airport.

A quick search shows many posts from people busted for airspace violations by assuming flight following gave them "clearance"

No, you have most of that incorrect. If you are talking to them, they are coordinating the transitions in your path with no further action from you, except for Class A&B where they will issue you a clearance you have to accept.

 

[rocketflyer84]

No, you have most of that incorrect. If you are talking to them, they are coordinating the transitions in your path with no further action from you, except for Class A&B where they will issue you a clearance you have to accept.

Guys, the FAA's attorney's quite strongly disagree with those stating flight following alone provides you will all this magical clearance to transition various airspaces.

Direct quote from the FAA when asked to clarify the precise situation being discussed here:

"
Also in your letter you posited a situation in which a pilot operating under visual flight rules (VFR) is communicating with an Air Route Traffic Control Center (ARTCC or Center) while approaching the boundary of Class C airspace. In your hypothetical, you inquired whether a pilot would be in violation of section 91.130(c)(1) if he enters the Class C airspace while in two-way communication with the Center and not the TRACON. You further inquired if the Center’s “failure to hand him off” would relieve the pilot of the responsibility to establish two-way communication with the TRACON prior to entering their Class C airspace.

The operator of the aircraft would be in violation of section 91.130(c)(1) in the hypothetical that you present. Under section 91.3, the pilot in command is directly responsible for and is the final authority as to the operation of the aircraft. The receipt of traffic advisories from a Center or any other ATC facility does not relieve the pilot of the responsibilities of section 91.3.
"

You can find various copies of said letter online by searching for the FAA letter to a Mike Granby who posed questions about the points being raised here.

The FAA further clarifies:

"
Advisory services such as flight following are furnished to VFR traffic as a courtesy when workloads permit. By providing this courtesy, the Center does not obligate itself to advise pilots operating under VFR of their geographic position nor of their obligations under section 91.130(c)(1) or any other sections of 14 CFR .
"

So just to be clear and state what I've been stating all along. Flight following DOES NOT grant you any sort of blanket permission to fly into airspace. You must have been cleared to enter any airspace while on flight following. The controller providing you with this service can certainly help, but if you bust an airspace without prior clearance it's your *ss that's going to get nailed.

By all means use flight following, it's a fantastic service and most controllers that provide it will go far above and beyond what they're required to do to help you out. But it's NOT the same as being on an IFR flight plan. The PIC of the VFR aircraft is fully responsible for all traffic separation, obtaining clearances and any other requirements set for by 14 CFR.

 

[eetrojan]

While specifically discussing advisory services coming from a TRACON (approach control), as opposed to Center, our own Bob Gardner explicitly says that two-way radio communication with the approach controller is sufficient to make a Class D transition (see posts 4 and 5):

The radar controller from whom you are receiving flight following services is responsible for coordinating with the Class D controller....not your job. In almost all cases, the tower has ceded the top 500 feet of its airspace to the overlying approach control, so just stick with the FF controller and don't worry about the Class D.

Bob

studentpilot.com

 

[roncachamp]

Guys, the FAA's attorney's quite strongly disagree with those stating flight following alone provides you will all this magical clearance to transition various airspaces.

No, he doesn't, you misunderstood what he wrote.

Direct quote from the FAA when asked to clarify the precise situation being discussed here:

"Also in your letter you posited a situation in which a pilot operating under visual flight rules (VFR) is communicating with an Air Route Traffic Control Center (ARTCC or Center) while approaching the boundary of Class C airspace. In your hypothetical, you inquired whether a pilot would be in violation of section 91.130(c)(1) if he enters the Class C airspace while in two-way communication with the Center and not the TRACON. You further inquired if the Center’s “failure to hand him off” would relieve the pilot of the responsibility to establish two-way communication with the TRACON prior to entering their Class C airspace.

The operator of the aircraft would be in violation of section 91.130(c)(1) in the hypothetical that you present. Under section 91.3, the pilot in command is directly responsible for and is the final authority as to the operation of the aircraft. The receipt of traffic advisories from a Center or any other ATC facility does not relieve the pilot of the responsibilities of section 91.3."

You can find various copies of said letter online by searching for the FAA letter to a Mike Granby who posed questions about the points being raised here.

The FAA further clarifies:

"Advisory services such as flight following are furnished to VFR traffic as a courtesy when workloads permit. By providing this courtesy, the Center does not obligate itself to advise pilots operating under VFR of their geographic position nor of their obligations under section 91.130(c)(1) or any other sections of 14 CFR ."

So just to be clear and state what I've been stating all along. Flight following DOES NOT grant you any sort of blanket permission to fly into airspace. You must have been cleared to enter any airspace while on flight following. The controller providing you with this service can certainly help, but if you bust an airspace without prior clearance it's your *ss that's going to get nailed.

By all means use flight following, it's a fantastic service and most controllers that provide it will go far above and beyond what they're required to do to help you out. But it's NOT the same as being on an IFR flight plan. The PIC of the VFR aircraft is fully responsible for all traffic separation, obtaining clearances and any other requirements set for by 14 CFR.

Being in communications with an ARTCC does not grant the pilot entry into Class C airspace. Nobody said it did. The issue here is flying through Class D airspace while on flight following. A radar controller providing flight following is required to coordinate with the control tower for the transition of Class D airspace by the aircraft. The pilot is not expected to contact the control tower himself. From Order JO 7110.65V Air Traffic Control:

Chapter 2. General Control

Section 1. General

2-1-16. SURFACE AREAS

a. Coordinate with the appropriate nonapproach control tower on an individual aircraft basis before issuing a clearance which would require flight within a surface area for which the tower has responsibility unless otherwise specified in a letter of agreement.

REFERENCE-
FAAO JO 7210.3, Para 4-3-1, Letters of Agreement.
14 CFR Section 91.127, Operating on or in the Vicinity of an Airport in Class E Airspace.
P/CG Term- Surface Area.

b. Coordinate with the appropriate control tower for transit authorization when you are providing radar traffic advisory service to an aircraft that will enter another facility's airspace.

NOTE-
The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through each area when in contact with a radar facility.

c. Transfer communications to the appropriate facility, if required, prior to operation within a surface area for which the tower has responsibility.

REFERENCE-
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 2-1-17, Radio Communications Transfer.
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 3-1-11, Surface Area Restrictions.
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 7-6-1, Application.
14 CFR Section 91.129, Operations in Class D Airspace.

Note that there is no differentiation between VFR or IFR operations.

 

[Henning]

Guys, the FAA's attorney's quite strongly disagree with those stating flight following alone provides you will all this magical clearance to transition various airspaces.

Direct quote from the FAA when asked to clarify the precise situation being discussed here:

"
Also in your letter you posited a situation in which a pilot operating under visual flight rules (VFR) is communicating with an Air Route Traffic Control Center (ARTCC or Center) while approaching the boundary of Class C airspace. In your hypothetical, you inquired whether a pilot would be in violation of section 91.130(c)(1) if he enters the Class C airspace while in two-way communication with the Center and not the TRACON. You further inquired if the Center’s “failure to hand him off” would relieve the pilot of the responsibility to establish two-way communication with the TRACON prior to entering their Class C airspace.

The operator of the aircraft would be in violation of section 91.130(c)(1) in the hypothetical that you present. Under section 91.3, the pilot in command is directly responsible for and is the final authority as to the operation of the aircraft. The receipt of traffic advisories from a Center or any other ATC facility does not relieve the pilot of the responsibilities of section 91.3.
"

You can find various copies of said letter online by searching for the FAA letter to a Mike Granby who posed questions about the points being raised here.

The FAA further clarifies:

"
Advisory services such as flight following are furnished to VFR traffic as a courtesy when workloads permit. By providing this courtesy, the Center does not obligate itself to advise pilots operating under VFR of their geographic position nor of their obligations under section 91.130(c)(1) or any other sections of 14 CFR .
"

So just to be clear and state what I've been stating all along. Flight following DOES NOT grant you any sort of blanket permission to fly into airspace. You must have been cleared to enter any airspace while on flight following. The controller providing you with this service can certainly help, but if you bust an airspace without prior clearance it's your *ss that's going to get nailed.

By all means use flight following, it's a fantastic service and most controllers that provide it will go far above and beyond what they're required to do to help you out. But it's NOT the same as being on an IFR flight plan. The PIC of the VFR aircraft is fully responsible for all traffic separation, obtaining clearances and any other requirements set for by 14 CFR.

Is there anywhere that Charlie airspace extends into Center Control space?

In your letter there is a factor unaddressed here, You should not be on with CENTER when entering a C. The issue is that of Center vs TRACON, not one of ATC not handling it.

If ATC is not providing a handoff, that's one thing, but unless they tell you "Services Terminated" the person you are talking to is handling it.

 

[roncachamp]

Is there anywhere that Charlie airspace extends into Center Control space?

Nowhere in the USA.

 

[rocketflyer84]

The letter is addressing the question around what constitutes "two way radio communication" for the purpose of entering an airspace (that requirement is the same for class D and class C).

The FAA says that the only facility that can "establish" such communication is the one with control over the airspace. They say talking to someone else doesn't count. In most every case I can think of TRACON or Center doesn't control Class D, only the tower at that airport does.

Flight following forgot to hand you off on approach? FAA says in that letter too bad, it's the VFR pilots responsibility not the controllers to make sure that clearance and/or "two way radio communicstikn" is in place.

They also go out of there way to point out that VFR flight following doesn't relieve a VFR PIC of any requirements. The letter clearly states the controller is under no obligation to do anything for you. If they forget to or are too busy to "hand you off" or make appropriate contact then for VFR flight following its the pilot that has committed a violation.

 

[OkieAviator]

What altitude are you flying when you make these calls? Unless you routinely fly your cross countries below 1,500agl, please don't do that anymore. Unless your presence is affecting aircraft in the immediate vicinity of the airport, it's not proper transmit to the entire state of Oklahoma (or wherever) the fact that you're flying overhead at 5,500 (unless you're about to drop skydivers on the airport). The higher you are, the farther your radio transmissions travel.

I don't do any of that anymore because I now only use flight following. But in the past, I mainly announced my position approaching and crossing of Hinton Airport which has both gliders and jumpers.

 

[jordane93]

The FAA says that the only facility that can "establish" such communication is the one with control over the airspace. They say talking to someone else doesn't count. In most every case I can think of TRACON or Center doesn't control Class D, only the tower at that airport does.

Wrong

They also go out of there way to point out that VFR flight following doesn't relieve a VFR PIC of any requirements. The letter clearly states the controller is under no obligation to do anything for you. If they forget to or are too busy to "hand you off" or make appropriate contact then for VFR flight following its the pilot that has committed a violation.

I don't think anyone is arguing that

 

[roncachamp]

The letter is addressing the question around what constitutes "two way radio communication" for the purpose of entering an airspace (that requirement is the same for class D and class C).

You're not even trying to understand this.

The FAA says that the only facility that can "establish" such communication is the one with control over the airspace. They say talking to someone else doesn't count. In most every case I can think of TRACON or Center doesn't control Class D, only the tower at that airport does.

You're wrong about that too. Most towers are non-approach control towers, aka "VFR towers". VFR towers control runways, controlled airspace is owned by ARTCCs and TRACONs.

 

[rocketflyer84]

Wrong

Could you please cite some actual facts?

CFR 14 says exactly the same thing in regards to Class C and D airspace. Specifically:

"Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the [emphasis supplied] ATC (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace"

When the FAA was specifically asked to clarify the definition of word 'the' in this language they re-affirmed that this means the facility responsible for that airspace. For a Class C that's TRACON and for a D that's the airport's tower. There may be some special cases where a TRACON controls Class D but that's certainly not the norm. The FAA is very clear on saying that talking to another facility does not meet the requirements in CFR 14 for establishing "two way communications" for the purpose of entering an airspace.

Some other facility you're talking to could call up the facility that controls the airspace and establish such communication on your behalf, but if that doesn't occur you are definitely not cleared. They are also not "required" to do so and its still the VFR PICs responsibility to make sure clearance exists ("The receipt of traffic advisories from a Center or any other ATC facility does not relieve the pilot of the responsibilities of section 91.3.")

If you can cite some actual regulatory evidence or official opinion from the FAA that contradicts the above and states that merely having flight following itself constitutes en-route clearance into an airspace not controlled by the person you're talking to then I'll ceed your point, but thus far nobody has provided any such evidence... just a lot of "nope" "someone on this forum said..." and such.

 

[roncachamp]

Could you please cite some actual facts?

Do you mean some more actual facts? Why? You've ignored all of them so far.

CFR 14 says exactly the same thing in regards to Class C and D airspace. Specifically:

"Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the [emphasis supplied] ATC (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace"

When the FAA was specifically asked to clarify the definition of word 'the' in this language they re-affirmed that this means the facility responsible for that airspace. For a Class C that's TRACON and for a D that's the airport's tower. There may be some special cases where a TRACON controls Class D but that's certainly not the norm. The FAA is very clear on saying that talking to another facility does not meet the requirements in CFR 14 for establishing "two way communications" for the purpose of entering an airspace.

Actually, it is the norm to have Class D airspace controlled by a facility other than the tower.

Some other facility you're talking to could call up the facility that controls the airspace and establish such communication on your behalf, but if that doesn't occur you are definitely not cleared. They are also not "required" to do so and its still the VFR PICs responsibility to make sure clearance exists ("The receipt of traffic advisories from a Center or any other ATC facility does not relieve the pilot of the responsibilities of section 91.3.")

The language of that requirement has already been cited at least twice with links to the order in which it is found. Are you reading the responses to your messages or are you just stupid?

If you can cite some actual regulatory evidence or official opinion from the FAA that contradicts the above and states that merely having flight following itself constitutes en-route clearance into an airspace not controlled by the person you're talking to then I'll ceed your point, but thus far nobody has provided any such evidence... just a lot of "nope" "someone on this forum said..." and such.

That evidence has been cited.

 

[Henning]

Nowhere in the USA.

Yeah, thought so, so the guy's question added a problem in potential by asking a question that was impossible to answer "no worries" to, because it's a situation that does not exist anywhere.

 

[Henning]

The letter is addressing the question around what constitutes "two way radio communication" for the purpose of entering an airspace (that requirement is the same for class D and class C).

The FAA says that the only facility that can "establish" such communication is the one with control over the airspace. They say talking to someone else doesn't count. In most every case I can think of TRACON or Center doesn't control Class D, only the tower at that airport does.

Flight following forgot to hand you off on approach? FAA says in that letter too bad, it's the VFR pilots responsibility not the controllers to make sure that clearance and/or "two way radio communicstikn" is in place.

They also go out of there way to point out that VFR flight following doesn't relieve a VFR PIC of any requirements. The letter clearly states the controller is under no obligation to do anything for you. If they forget to or are too busy to "hand you off" or make appropriate contact then for VFR flight following its the pilot that has committed a violation.

You are missing the key factor in the letter by ignoring that the reference is to what CENTER can do. Center and TRACON do different things. When you are transitioning around the country at an altitude crossing through C airspace, you are on with TRACON control, not CENTER.

The answer received is confusing because it was written by a lawyer addressing semantic issues, rather than by a pilot addressing practical issues.

 

[Shawn]

You must have been cleared to enter any airspace while on flight following.

That is not at all correct. Leaving A outta the mix...you only need to be "cleared" into Bravo airspace. C and D you only need to bet in radio communication with ATC that has control of that airspace. If you are talking to Approach of C or D airspace you do not need a "clearance" or even an approval to enter C or D. ONLY B. That was like day two of PPL ground school.

The only debate is the ambiguity of who has "control" of that airspace in addition to tower. In reality any approach controller that has a sector adjacent to a C or D is going to be controlling authority.

 

[jordane93]

Could you please cite some actual facts?

CFR 14 says exactly the same thing in regards to Class C and D airspace. Specifically:

"Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the [emphasis supplied] ATC (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace"

When the FAA was specifically asked to clarify the definition of word 'the' in this language they re-affirmed that this means the facility responsible for that airspace. For a Class C that's TRACON and for a D that's the airport's tower. There may be some special cases where a TRACON controls Class D but that's certainly not the norm. The FAA is very clear on saying that talking to another facility does not meet the requirements in CFR 14 for establishing "two way communications" for the purpose of entering an airspace.

Some other facility you're talking to could call up the facility that controls the airspace and establish such communication on your behalf, but if that doesn't occur you are definitely not cleared. They are also not "required" to do so and its still the VFR PICs responsibility to make sure clearance exists ("The receipt of traffic advisories from a Center or any other ATC facility does not relieve the pilot of the responsibilities of section 91.3.")

If you can cite some actual regulatory evidence or official opinion from the FAA that contradicts the above and states that merely having flight following itself constitutes en-route clearance into an airspace not controlled by the person you're talking to then I'll ceed your point, but thus far nobody has provided any such evidence... just a lot of "nope" "someone on this forum said..." and such.

You've been given examples multiple times by multiple people in this thread. See post 51 and read it carefully and slowly.

 

[Hank S]

Center usually transfers me to Approach when I get close, and sometimes they pass me off to Tower. I'm thinking specifically of Greensboro, NC (KPTI), which I've crossed many times between 6500-10,500 msl headed SE/NW.

From memory: ATL Center, Approach, Tower, Departure, then sometimes back to ATL, sometimes sometimes to RDU Approach.

Going IFR takes all of this off the table, but can create needless diversions and reroutes. I transmitted over PTI many times before getting IA, never had issues with airspace.

 

[Henning]

Center usually transfers me to Approach when I get close, and sometimes they pass me off to Tower. I'm thinking specifically of Greensboro, NC (KPTI), which I've crossed many times between 6500-10,500 msl headed SE/NW.

From memory: ATL Center, Approach, Tower, Departure, then sometimes back to ATL, sometimes sometimes to RDU Approach.

Going IFR takes all of this off the table, but can create needless diversions and reroutes. I transmitted over PTI many times before getting IA, never had issues with airspace.

I think Center starts at 10,000', can anyone confirm or correct that?

 

[Shawn]

I think Center starts at 10,000', can anyone confirm or correct that?

ATL specifically or Center in general?

 

[Henning]

ATL specifically or Center in general?

In General, I think it's nationwide, but would like clarification.

 

[Shawn]

In General, I think it's nationwide, but would like clarification.

Not specifically 10,000'. While that may be the norm around B airspace it is not the rule. Out in CA around KSBA which is C I have been with Center on FF as low as 8500'. Get to Central CA where there is no C airspace for miles and I am with center at any altitude. If you go into KPRB you are getting approach clearances, vectors, and radar services all the way to the ground with Oakland Center.

 

[Approach_controller]

I'm not sure about R airspace, but if you're on FF the controller is supposed to automatically clear you or arrange clearance through any B,C, or D airspace on your route.

I have an ATC friend who is the boss of a bunch of towers in several states. I asked him about this. He said: "They are supposed to clear you, but it's a good idea to ask."

Since they are supposed to clear you, I can't see that it would be a violation of you entered the airspace without a specific clearance, but why find out?

A boss of a bunch of towers in several states, by necessity, spent very little time as an actual controller in most cases. Further, it isn't uncommon for a facility chief to have worked as a controller only at a very slow VFR tower before working their way through management ranks to run a complex facility or ran busy traffic for a short time years ago. Nothing against them, they just focused on a totally different career path than I did.

Based on your friend's answer I wonder if you'd feel comfortable climbing into the flight levels VFR on FF. There are explicit regulations stating that is illegal, but its just airspace and it's flight following after all. Similarly, you need an EXPLICIT clearance to enter the Bravo, but hey you're on flight following.

I hope I'm not coming off like a jerk, but I don't want any confusion on the class B part of the equation because I'd rather not see you or anyone else reading this face certificate action. I work class B airspace. I've seen pilots run over airliners with the excuse "Well I was talking to the class D tower and nobody said to not climb to 9,000 AGL. I was planning on talking to you, but I couldn't find the frequency and I'd already switched from tower. They gave me a squawk code for FF though".

Separation standards exist in the Bravo if you're VFR. In Charlie and Delta and the center environment, if the vfr's don't hit its legal. In my world, you can be well clear, not flinch and still be too close and if separation is lost, know that it will be reviewed. That's the reason you need a stated clearance. When they pull the tapes, if I never say cleared into the class B, that's not a deviation on my part per the .65, that rests on your head for failing to comply with the FAR's. Advising pilots to roll through a Bravo without clearance is an invitation for a FSDO visit.

 

[Approach_controller]

I think Center starts at 10,000', can anyone confirm or correct that?

Depends. most class C's own 10,000. Class B type approaches own higher, sometimes into the so called low flight levels ie FL230. We also own shelfs lower than 10,000 and work with add on TRACON sectors that own less than 10,000 as well.

 

[rocketflyer84]

That is not at all correct. Leaving A outta the mix...you only need to be "cleared" into Bravo airspace. C and D you only need to bet in radio communication with ATC that has control of that airspace. If you are talking to Approach of C or D airspace you do not need a "clearance" or even an approval to enter C or D. ONLY B. That was like day two of PPL ground school.

Yes indeed, poor choice of words on my part. Discussion re C and D is purely about establishing "two way radio communications" regarding authorization to enter that airspace.

The only debate is the ambiguity of who has "control" of that airspace in addition to tower. In reality any approach controller that has a sector adjacent to a C or D is going to be controlling authority.

Agreed. The issue comes down to if the person providing flight following service is the "controlling facility" for the class D in question and hence talking to them constitutes "two way communication". Having spent visiting in Class D towers I assure you in those cases the nearest TRACON was not in charge of that airspace. Contact had to be made with the tower in question for VFR permission to enter the airspace (although TRACON could, workload permitting, call upon the phone and make contact on someone's behalf if they were en-route).

There are cases where a local TRACON has an agreement regarding transitioning aircraft across the top of a Class D but this is a local operating procedure and not anything encoded in the regs. If the FF controller acknowledges such a transition then you're good... but if nothing is said and you just keep flying on through assuming you're good that's when people can get into trouble.

This is just one such case where a pilot enters Class D while on flight following and is "busted" for not securing two-way communication with the tower before entering the airspace. FF led him right into a Class D airspace and the Class D busted him for not establishing comms first:
http://mooneyspace.com/topic/723-class-d-airspace-violation/

In reference to 14 CFR Part 91, 3-2-1 of the AIM states "It is the responsibility of the pilot to ensure that ATC clearance or radio communication requirements are met prior to entry into Class B, Class C or Class D airspace. The pilot retains this responsibility when receiving ATC radar advisories."

If the person that provides flight following is always the party that constitutes "two way communication" for Class C and Class D airspace entry (as some on here have insisted) then this sentence in the AIM wouldn't even make sense. The point is sometimes the person you're getting FF from doesn't control the airspace you could be passing through. If that's the case you need to make sure contact with that facility is made.

Ideally the controller giving you FF gives you a heads up, volunteers to call ahead, or cancels service and tells you to call the tower at Class D if you want to transition. But if they don't or are tied up with IFR traffic while and you bust airspace then that bust is on you. If you just "assume" you're cleared while VFR, well that's a really bad idea. The FAA has been explicitly clear that you don't assume and that while on flight following the PIC is still the sole person responsible for adhering to 14 CFR. When in doubt, just ask.

 

[eetrojan]

I'm going to toss in an actual flight path for some real world context and see what y'all think.

I recently flew northwest from the LA area to a non-towered airport called Shafter (KMIT). It’s next to and just past a Class D airport called Meadows (KBFL). I had flight following all the way to within just a few miles of Shafter because I was having a hard time finding it in the haze.

As you can see from the chart below, my straight-line path from GMN VOR to KMIT would have me flying through KBFL’s Class D airspace. In other words, I could easily have flown through the Delta, or I could have easily flown around it.

I actually veered off to the west to avoid this very issue, but this thread has me wondering:

Could I have flown this transition through KBFL’s delta without any concern since I was in two-way communication with Bakersfield Approach?

Or, would I have needed to proactively ask Approach to obtain approval for the transition?

Or, something else?

 

[Henning]

If you were talking to SoCal, they had you covered whether direct or by handing you over depending on the situation. Once you start talking to ATC, you don't have to instigate another contact until 'services terminated', they hand you off to who you need to talk to next.*

* Occasionally you will be forgotten, so if you are approaching an airspace and haven't heard anything in a while, an enquiry is a good idea.

 

[ollopa]

I love FF and ATC but I prefer to play it safe. A flight plan is cheap insurance to make sure someone will look for you if you go missing. All I expect out of a busy ATC is "N1234, radar contact lost. Squawk VFR, good day." Even if they're supposed to send SAR if I don't answer back, I guess I just don't have the faith

 

[Velocity173]

I'm going to toss in an actual flight path for some real world context and see what y'all think.

I recently flew northwest from the LA area to a non-towered airport called Shafter (KMIT). It’s next to and just past a Class D airport called Meadows (KBFL). I had flight following all the way to within just a few miles of Shafter because I was having a hard time finding it in the haze.

As you can see from the chart below, my straight-line path from GMN VOR to KMIT would have me flying through KBFL’s Class D airspace. In other words, I could easily have flown through the Delta, or I could have easily flown around it.

I actually veered off to the west to avoid this very issue, but this thread has me wondering:

Could I have flown this transition through KBFL’s delta without any concern since I was in two-way communication with Bakersfield Approach?

Or, would I have needed to proactively ask Approach to obtain approval for the transition?

Or, something else?

Yes, as stated before by references both Steven and I provided, the radar facility (Bakersfield) is responsible for coordinating your transition thru the Meadow class D surface area. Your communications requirement (3-2-1) is met by two way communications with approach and the clearance part doesn't apply because their is no clearance into the D. Your transition, by virtue of maintaining comms with approach "the ATC facility providing air traffic services" also meets the communications requirements under 91.129.

To ask approach if they got your transition, would be like asking them if they did their job. It's your prerogative but you might get a response from them along the lines "yes, your transition is coordinated. I'm obligated under FAA order 7110.65 2-1-16 to ensure it is done."

If the approach controller somehow forgets to do it, well it's on them. Just like every other violation of orders they're required to obey, such as Operational Deviations and Operational Errors, it's their bust not yours.

Finally, the overwhelming and blaring fact is, in order for you to even be written up for a pilot deviation, it would have to be written up by the controller. No controller in their right mind is going to write you up for a PD that 1) doesn't exist and 2) it's their bust and not yours. They'd be hanging themselves out to dry.

 

[roncachamp]

I think Center starts at 10,000', can anyone confirm or correct that?

Center starts at the surface. The airspace delegated by ARTCCs to terminal facilities is customized, it's whatever is judged to be needed based on traffic, terrain, and the tools needed to get the job done.

 

[roncachamp]

Agreed. The issue comes down to if the person providing flight following service is the "controlling facility" for the class D in question and hence talking to them constitutes "two way communication". Having spent visiting in Class D towers I assure you in those cases the nearest TRACON was not in charge of that airspace. Contact had to be made with the tower in question for VFR permission to enter the airspace (although TRACON could, workload permitting, call upon the phone and make contact on someone's behalf if they were en-route).

What towers were those?

There are cases where a local TRACON has an agreement regarding transitioning aircraft across the top of a Class D but this is a local operating procedure and not anything encoded in the regs. If the FF controller acknowledges such a transition then you're good... but if nothing is said and you just keep flying on through assuming you're good that's when people can get into trouble.

It's nationwide, the requirement is found in Order JO 7110.65 Air Traffic Control which has already been cited several times in this discussion. You're refuting irrefutable proof, do you know how that makes you appear?

This is just one such case where a pilot enters Class D while on flight following and is "busted" for not securing two-way communication with the tower before entering the airspace. FF led him right into a Class D airspace and the Class D busted him for not establishing comms first:
http://mooneyspace.com/topic/723-class-d-airspace-violation/

That was not a thruflight, the airport in that case was the pilot's destination. The radar controller should have terminated flight following before entry into Class D airspace. Absent that termination the pilot should have contacted the tower on his own.

Mooneyspace cites "conflicting information" that does not actually conflict:

Here is the conflicting information:

1] Under the Air Traffic Manual, 7110.65, paragraph 2-1-16, it states that "The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through each area when in contact with a radar facility."

Through each area. The note quoted there comes from paragraph 2-1-16.b. which applies only to aircraft that will fly all the way through the Class D airspace.

2] FAR 91.129[1] states "(1) Arrival or through flight. Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace."

FAR 91.129 begins with "General. Unless otherwise authorized..." Without those words everything that follows would be strictly binding. Have you ever heard of non-radio equipped aircraft making arrangements to operate within Class D airspace? Would that be possible without those three words? It's the same way with transition of Class D airspace for aircraft receiving radar services. The radar controller coordinates the transition so the aircraft transits without ever calling the tower, in perfect compliance with the regulation. Understand that the radar controller is required to perform that coordination, he is not just doing the pilot a favor.

In reference to 14 CFR Part 91, 3-2-1 of the AIM states "It is the responsibility of the pilot to ensure that ATC clearance or radio communication requirements are met prior to entry into Class B, Class C or Class D airspace. The pilot retains this responsibility when receiving ATC radar advisories."

If the person that provides flight following is always the party that constitutes "two way communication" for Class C and Class D airspace entry (as some on here have insisted) then this sentence in the AIM wouldn't even make sense. The point is sometimes the person you're getting FF from doesn't control the airspace you could be passing through. If that's the case you need to make sure contact with that facility is made.

Given the conflict between that statement, which appears in a publication that describes itself as advisory only, and the statements in FAR 91.129 and Order JO 7110.65, which are regulatory and mandatory, I'd say that sentence doesn't make a lot of sense. That's not the only nonsense you'll find in the AIM, BTW.

Ideally the controller giving you FF gives you a heads up, volunteers to call ahead, or cancels service and tells you to call the tower at Class D if you want to transition. But if they don't or are tied up with IFR traffic while and you bust airspace then that bust is on you. If you just "assume" you're cleared while VFR, well that's a really bad idea. The FAA has been explicitly clear that you don't assume and that while on flight following the PIC is still the sole person responsible for adhering to 14 CFR. When in doubt, just ask.

And the place where the FAA has been abundantly clear on the requirements to transit Class D airspace, as you see it, is in the Granby letter, which never mentions Class D airspace.

 

[roncachamp]

I'm going to toss in an actual flight path for some real world context and see what y'all think.

I recently flew northwest from the LA area to a non-towered airport called Shafter (KMIT). It’s next to and just past a Class D airport called Meadows (KBFL). I had flight following all the way to within just a few miles of Shafter because I was having a hard time finding it in the haze.

Odd, that image looks more like a flight southeast from Shafter to the LA area.

As you can see from the chart below, my straight-line path from GMN VOR to KMIT would have me flying through KBFL’s Class D airspace. In other words, I could easily have flown through the Delta, or I could have easily flown around it.

I actually veered off to the west to avoid this very issue, but this thread has me wondering:

Could I have flown this transition through KBFL’s delta without any concern since I was in two-way communication with Bakersfield Approach?

Affirmative.

Or, would I have needed to proactively ask Approach to obtain approval for the transition?

Negative.

Or, something else?

Nothing else.

 

[roncachamp]

I love FF and ATC but I prefer to play it safe. A flight plan is cheap insurance to make sure someone will look for you if you go missing. All I expect out of a busy ATC is "N1234, radar contact lost. Squawk VFR, good day." Even if they're supposed to send SAR if I don't answer back, I guess I just don't have the faith

ATC is supposed to initiate a search when an unexpected loss of radar contact and radio communications occurs. If radar contact is lost where radar contact is commonly lost due to distance from the radar site and altitude of the aircraft then ATC has no requirement to initiate a search even if you don't respond to them.

 

[rocketflyer84]

And the place where the FAA has been abundantly clear on the requirements to transit Class D airspace, as you see it, is in the Granby letter, which never mentions Class D airspace.

The letter is not about C vs. D, it's about asking if simply talking to someone on flight following constitutes the requirement for "two-way radio communication" with the controlling facility for an airspace prior to entering such airspace. The FAA says no it does not. There person you are talking to needs to be the controlling authority for traffic in that airspace.

It's nationwide, the requirement is found in Order JO 7110.65 Air Traffic Control which has already been cited several times in this discussion. You're refuting irrefutable proof, do you know how that makes you appear?

JO 7110.65 is very clear that it does not override a pilot's responsibility under 14 CFR.

"Pilots are required to abide by CFRs or other applicable regulations regardless of the application of any procedure or minima in this order."

You can't keep pointing to so something in 7110.65 and claim that this relieves you of duties assigned to you as PIC under 14 CFR. 7110.65 itself says that logic doesn't fly. The FAA has further clarified that this logic doesn't work, especially as it relates to flight following:

"The receipt of traffic advisories from a Center or any other ATC facility does not relieve the pilot of the responsibilities of section 91.3."

and

Advisory services such as flight following are furnished to VFR traffic as a courtesy when workloads permit. By providing this courtesy, the Center does not obligate itself to advise pilots operating under VFR of their geographic position nor of their obligations under section 91.130(c)(1) or any other sections of 14 CFR .

And specifically as it relates to "two-way communication" and Class D:

"It is the responsibility of the pilot to ensure that ATC clearance or radio communication requirements are met prior to entry into Class B, Class C or Class D airspace. The pilot retains this responsibility when receiving ATC radar advisories."

So when under VFR you must establish "two-way communication" with the facility responsible for the Class D to enter the Class D.

Yes, the person you're talking to may have a LOA with the Class D to say they are responsible for the airspace in question, but this is not guaranteed. You've said:

It's nationwide, the requirement is found in Order JO 7110.65 Air Traffic Control which has already been cited several times in this discussion. You're refuting irrefutable proof, do you know how that makes you appear?

Please cite the regulation where it says the person you're talking to for flight following has authority over all Class D "nationwide." I have never seen anything to that effect.

There may be such an agreement in place, but one should never assume that's the case. One should never "assume" anything regarding permissions to be in a particular airspace. If the PIC is not 100% sure, they should ask.

To ask approach if they got your transition, would be like asking them if they did their job. It's your prerogative but you might get a response from them along the lines "yes, your transition is coordinated. I'm obligated under FAA order 7110.65 2-1-16 to ensure it is done."

This is bad advice.

The PIC is governed by CFR 14. CFR 14 says the PIC is responsible for ensuring airspace reqs have been met. If you bust something in CFR 14, 7110.65 isn't a defense. 7110.65 itself says that quite clearly right up front!

If the PIC intends to enter a Class D it's the PIC's responsibility to ensure such communications have been established. If the PIC isn't 100% sure that the person they're talking to is the controlling authority for the Class D in question, they should absolutely ask. Never ever "assume" when it comes to airspace reqs.

Also, purely from a practical standpoint a VFR pilot on flight following is on "altitude and course per the PICs discretion" unless otherwise discussed with the controller. The controller has no way of knowing if a VFR pilot intends to fly into/above/around an airspace unless you've discussed a specific route to your destination.

Again, per above being on flight following does not absolve the PIC of this responsibility. The FAA has been very clear on this fact. Trying to use a "but I was on flight following" defense is like trying to say you're iPad's GPS told you something. Both are considered supplementary services for a VFR pilot.

FAR 91.129 and Order JO 7110.65, which are regulatory and mandatory,

Right, and so far as regs are concerned 7110.65 says nothing in there overrides the FARs "regardless of the application of any procedure or minima in this order". For the PIC CFR 14 is the law. Please stop trying to use things said in 7110.65 to say it's OK for a PIC to do or not do something.



Ultimately we may just need to agree to disagree on some of these points although I would strongly encourage any PIC to never "assume" anything, especially as it relates to permission to be in an airspace.

In the worst case if something really bad does happen, saying "but I was on flight following so I assumed..." isn't likely to get you too far.

And, as this thread started, we can all agree that Flight Following and the controllers that provide it are indeed fantastic!