Flight Academy not willing to see instructors beforehand

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Salty said:
Don’t need your permission as it’s none of you’re business.
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When are you going to become a CFI Salty? It would be nice if you were at least qualified to teach before telling the experienced what we are doing wrong.
 
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EdFred said:
Congratulations, you just made the mostest, wrongerest statement of the month, maybe the year.
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Lighten up. Okay, I made a mistake. I admit it. I deleted the mostest and wrongest statement of the month, maybe the year, perhaps of my entire life.
 
Clip4 said:
When are you going to become a CFI Salty? It would be nice if you were at least qualified to teach before telling the experienced what we are doing wrong.
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Argument ad authority fallacy
 
I can usually grasp the energy someone gives off in about 20 to 40 seconds, a short chit chat, a couple of questions, so in about 3 minutes I can tell if they are just an arrogant blowhard, or someone whom I would like to spend time with as an instructor.
It doesn't take hours of intense interviews.
 
Salty said:
I would think you could speak to a prospective new student while you’re billing a student flying a solo cross country. Oh, but that wouldn’t allow you to bill a second student at the same time your billing someone while not even with them. I forgot, it’s important to rush several students to solo status so you can be billing for 2, 3, even 4 of them at a time while you post on POA about how we are all bad students.

For others that didn’t follow the other thread, clip4 believes it is appropriate and necessary to bill students full price for dual while they are solo and he is on the ground doing other things.
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Oh my, I've been doing this all wrong.

Granted I have never worked for a flight school, and I have only had my CFI for about 30 years, but have NEVER charged a student a penny for them to do a solo flight, other than when I'm standing on the ground watching them.

I would never dream of telling a student I was charging them to go do a solo cross country. But then I never charged for pre or post flight briefings either. Only flight time unless we're doing a scheduled ground school. I have always done it this way and I am very happy with the money I make and my students are very happy with their return on investment.

I wonder how some people are able to get a headset over their heads.
 
SToL said:
Oh my, I've been doing this all wrong.

Granted I have never worked for a flight school, and I have only had my CFI for about 30 years, but have NEVER charged a student a penny for them to do a solo flight, other than when I'm standing on the ground watching them.

I would never dream of telling a student I was charging them to go do a solo cross country. But then I never charged for pre or post flight briefings either. Only flight time unless we're doing a scheduled ground school. I have always done it this way and I am very happy with the money I make and my students are very happy with their return on investment.

I wonder how some people are able to get a headset over their heads.
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Regarding the headset utilization I’m sure some people just sit on the headset to put it on.
 
Clip4 said:
First, let me make it clear there is nothing with primary training in Part 141 that can’t be


Let’s address your incorrect statement statement. In a previous post somebody posted their school charged the student dual rate for XC solo flights. The school I work does not do this, but I defended the policy. Simply stated, the school maybe meeting requirements of their insurance other other operational considerations where they believe this policy is prudent.

Flight schools pay their instructors from fees collected from students. I also clearly stated if you don’t like a schools policies and fees go elsewhere. Schools do not let students set the policy.

I also defend the policy that a CFI for all solo needs to be present to release a student solo. In the Part 141 schools that is an FAA regulation. It is the students responsibility to pay that cost if a CFI is not at the school to release the flight.

I don’t work for free and I have no duty to aviation to work for free. Neither does any other CFI. If you disagree with that I have some painting at my house that needs done and I can pay you for part of the time you are here working.

Salty, if you want to become a Hobby CFI who works for nothing, have at it, but don’t expect the professionals to adopt your hobby ethics.
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You can tailor 141 to the same degree as 61?

Not many of the high time freelancers work 141, 141 instructors tend to be the low time regional airline wannabes
 
If you are looking to stay a Private Pilot and not run through commercial as fast as possible, look for a flying club for your training.

https://www.aopa.org/CAPComm/flyingclubs/flyingclubfinder/index.cfm

AOPA maintains a good map, if you have a choice, look for one with a social aspect as well. But keep in mind that even if the club has CFIs, most of them are not full time. The club I am with has 1 full-time CFI and a handful of airline pilots who fly when they can.
 
Is Gordan Freeman your real name or a reference to 'Half Life'?
 
James331 said:
You can tailor 141 to the same degree as 61?

Not many of the high time freelancers work 141, 141 instructors tend to be the low time regional airline wannabes
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It varies a lot between 141 schools. The 141 schools associated with military flying clubs (Kirkland, Elgin, ect) are going to be packed with high time CFIs. The 141 schools associated with community colleges and universities are going to be a mix because they need the experience and leadership.
The traditional commercial puppy mills are time builders except MEIs and the Chief Flight Instructor.
 
Any instructors thinking that they are too important, to spend a few minutes talking to a prospective student, should be all the information that students need to know, to avoid those individuals like a plague. Jump in the car and drive over to the next school, and see if they care at all about their customers.
 
Clip4 said:
It varies a lot between 141 schools. The 141 schools associated with military flying clubs (Kirkland, Elgin, ect) are going to be packed with high time CFIs. The 141 schools associated with community colleges and universities are going to be a mix because they need the experience and leadership.
The traditional commercial puppy mills are time builders except MEIs and the Chief Flight Instructor.
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Define high time?

Only school that I’ve seen with full time high time CFIs was a odd ball specialty school in GA
 
Clip4 said:
The traditional commercial puppy mills are time builders except MEIs and the Chief Flight Instructor.
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You said your school has 200 students. What makes your puppy mill better than their puppy mill?
 
James331 said:
Define high time?

Only school that I’ve seen with full time high time CFIs was a odd ball specialty school in GA
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3000 hours. If you go to any of the military flying clubs with 141 schools that value is low.
 
James331 said:
Never seen that, interesting
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Pick up the phone and call a flying club at an Air Force Base and talk to the Chief Instructor. Unfortunately most of these have limited access, but a Civil Air Patrol membership might get you on. You will be training with very high experience CFIs.
 
Clip4 said:
Vs No qualifications or experience, but plenty of baseless opinions.
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You’re wrong again. The whole point of the fallacy is that having different credentials does not make a person right, or wrong.

Also, I am an intelligent person who has Worked for others, have run my own business, and have been a student for multiple ratings with multiple schools and instructors. I have plenty of qualifications and experience to discuss student - instructor interactions for flight training on multiple levels.
 
Salty said:
You’re wrong again. I am an intelligent person who has Worked for others, have run my own business, and have been a student for multiple ratings with multiple schools and instructors. I have plenty of qualifications and experience to discuss student - instructor interactions for flight training on multiple levels.
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well that certainly clarifies your expertise.
 
Clip4 said:
Pick up the phone and call a flying club at an Air Force Base and talk to the Chief Instructor. Unfortunately most of these have limited access, but a Civil Air Patrol membership might get you on. You will be training with very high experience CFIs.
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Like it’s run by CAP people?
 
Bill Greenwood said:
Don't make it so complicated. If the CFI is regularly teaching at the school at the airport, then when a prospective student phones in or walks in, the desk person says. "Joe's out flying, will be back in half hour and you can meet him, he has lesson times in the morning at 11." No big deal,
Just to see I phoned my flight school at Boulder, asking about an IPC which I need in 2 months. Friendly guy answers, says Dune is the best one with the simulator and the sim is available most days, and Dune is except off on Mon , Tue. No hassle.
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Dune? I would never fly with a guy named Dune. The simulator is always available because young CFIs can't log time in the sim even as a procedures trainer you fight the sim. I just looked up both flight schools at Boulder I know a few of those guys. I like the one with tons of hours who used to work at Metro before he landed his second flight school plane upside down at night due to fuel exhaustion.
 
Salty said:
Argument ad authority fallacy
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Salty is more of a tell you how you should do things kind of guy/gal. I put him on ignore for a while but then I forgot how I should do things so I brought him back into my life.
 
Clip4 said:
http://eglinaeroclub.com/
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If you can get on with an aero club they can be somewhat cheaper. I completed my CFI at one (already had the -G) and the equipment was good. A lot of extra work cause like the military they take the fun out of everything. Wasn't keen on taxiing around for .3-.4 every flight because it was on a big airport but since VA was paying I think I came out ahead.

Oof, just looked up the wet rates for Eglin. They must be milking the VA money, can't see flying there unless somebody else was paying for it...172s with Narcos for $140/hour.
 
Landing Fees said:
Salty is more of a tell you how you should do things kind of guy/gal. I put him on ignore for a while but then I forgot how I should do things so I brought him back into my life.
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Clip is telling a student he’s a bad student for wanting to meet his instructor, but you think I’m the one telling people how to do things?

Maybe you should put me back on ignore before you read anymore rational statements.
 
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Landing Fees said:
If you can get on with an aero club they can be somewhat cheaper. I completed my CFI at one (already had the -G) and the equipment was good. A lot of extra work cause like the military they take the fun out of everything. Wasn't keen on taxiing around for .3-.4 every flight because it was on a big airport but since VA was paying I think I came out ahead.

Oof, just looked up the wet rates for Eglin. They must be milking the VA money, can't see flying there unless somebody else was paying for it...172s with Narcos for $140/hour.
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No one ever claimed the Air Force operated in expensively. The biggest problem is you can’t get passengers on the flight line, BS weather briefing requirements, no night VFR unless you are inst rated. But if you want the best trained instructors on the planet, the military aero clubs can’t be beat.
 
My view on meeting your cfi is to have at it, but the places I've flown with have cfis on very different schedules, mainly to accommodate their students. Expecting a cfi to make an appointment to come in and see me so I can decide if I want to fly with him/her is over the top in my opinion. I don't see any value knowing what I know about flight instruction, which is just from a consumer point of view.
 
Flying Clubs can be found on the AOPA site

www.aopa.org/community/flying-clubs

I learned at a club, using a club instructor and club plane. Then, for a few years, I rented at the same club, until I bought my own plane. The club also had social gatherings and events, which added something to the experience that I wouldn’t get training with just a lone CFI and a rental plane.

Overall, it’s a good way to get started.
 
Salty said:
Clip is telling a student he’s a bad student for wanting to meet his instructor, but you think I’m the one telling people how to do things?

Maybe you should put me back on ignore before you read anymore of my irrational statements.
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I said he was a bad student. I want to quit flying because of him. I judge early and often.
 
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PaulS said:
My view on meeting your cfi is to have at it, but the places I've flown with have cfis on very different schedules, mainly to accommodate their students. Expecting a cfi to make an appointment to come in and see me so I can decide if I want to fly with him/her is over the top in my opinion. I don't see any value knowing what I know about flight instruction, which is just from a consumer point of view.
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If you don’t find value in meeting and flying with a prospective instructor that’s fine. It is not over the top though...
 
Clip4 said:
I am a highly sought after instructor in a top notch flight school. I am not impolite or demeaning to my students. But I also do not have the time or desire to be interviewed by the students. Nor do any of the other highly qualified CFIs at the school. All of us work hard and put in a lot of hours to accomplish a high quality training mission.

There are 200 students at the school. Having our instructors standing student interviews is not productive and an unwarranted cost to the student.

If that bothers you, there are more options in the area that may better meet your individual needs.
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Is this Alexander Wolf? You sound just like him...

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/just-wow.119673/
 
Landing Fees said:
If you can get on with an aero club they can be somewhat cheaper. I completed my CFI at one (already had the -G) and the equipment was good. A lot of extra work cause like the military they take the fun out of everything. Wasn't keen on taxiing around for .3-.4 every flight because it was on a big airport but since VA was paying I think I came out ahead.

Oof, just looked up the wet rates for Eglin. They must be milking the VA money, can't see flying there unless somebody else was paying for it...172s with Narcos for $140/hour.
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You are probably a really good CFI. Completing a CFI at a USAF Aero Club is very comprehensive training with high completion standards. Chances are you were trained by CFIs who trained pilots in the Air Force.
 
Clip4 said:
I’d recommend you. Completing a CFI at a USAF Aero Club is very comprehensive training with high completion standards.
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They had a good crew at Peterson AFB when I was training, think I was flying some active duty Lt Col's personal plane. I would recommend them to somebody over the 141 down the street from my hangar where I did my comm multi. That outfit isn't horrible but scheduling was difficult, I had three different multi instructors vs one for my CFI also a money making venture. I instructed at a part 61 for a bit, people would come down because the 141 was too busy and if they stopped by they would stay. Our school had about 20 plans on line at the time, great instructors and very affordable ~$60 less an hour than the competitors 172s which were newer G1000 equipped aircraft.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
If you don’t find value in meeting and flying with a prospective instructor that’s fine. It is not over the top though...
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Wait a minute, the op wanted to meet with the instructors, not fly with them. If he wants to fly with them, schedule a lesson and have at it, but I would expect a long wait to get through a list.

I'd be a little more forgiving if the op asked for times the cfi would be around, for example after a lesson with another student, then ask for a FEW MINUTES in between lessons. But in the end, expecting to interview each one, I see no value in that.
 
Bill Greenwood said:
Don't make it so complicated. If the CFI is regularly teaching at the school at the airport, then when a prospective student phones in or walks in, the desk person says. "Joe's out flying, will be back in half hour and you can meet him, he has lesson times in the morning at 11." No big deal,
Just to see I phoned my flight school at Boulder, asking about an IPC which I need in 2 months. Friendly guy answers, says Dune is the best one with the simulator and the sim is available most days, and Dune is except off on Mon , Tue. No hassle.

Lets contrast it with Chip 4 who writes under an alias, won't tell us the name of this leading flight school whom students are begging to get into, nor even the airport or town it is located in. So if I was the OP , the student and was thinking about spending not just 12,000 but $21,000 with this guy, I would not only ask other students at the airport, but I'd check out the business name with the Better Business Bureau.

And beware when a guy starts throwing in nonsense like, "I don't work for free" or about a "2 or 3 hour interview", it puts doubt on other things he has to say.
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Ok, this put this in perspective. On any training day I teach 3 lessons of 1.5 hours flight and 15 minutes both pre and post flight for a total of 2 hours. Those 3 lessons are back to back and I only fly 3 lessons due to my personal safety standards. This is in part due to scheduling that requires night lessons.

So when you walk in and I say I want to talk to a CFI, I can do that by not giving the student the attention he has paying the school for me to provide. After I am off duty, I am going home, I am not going to stand there and shoot the bull with you. When we have training contracts, 7 day work weeks are the norm.

if you have questions, we have staff available to answer your questions. Letting you interrupt someone else’s lesson or expecting an instructor to chat with you during their off duty hours is not acceptable. That staff will assist you with scheduling a CFI for a lesson, TSA requirements, financing your training, GI Bill, answering general questions and a host of other issues that the CFI need not be bothered with. That staff will also give you information about your assigned CFI if you desire.

If you trained at low volume school with a bunch hobby instructors doing one lesson on Saturday, I can see why you think every instructor is available for BS time. But if you are instructing where people expect professional flight instruction, being blown off to answer questions from people wondering in the door Is unacceptable.
 
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