Flew through a TFR.

AnthonyS1

AnthonyS1

Pre-takeoff checklist
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AnthonyS1
Titled spells it out exactly... Met with a potential buyer for our aircraft at the airport this morning. We agreed on a price and we decided to fly the airplane to another airport (KPNE) 12 miles away so he could do his pre buy. I take off at my airport (N14) which is uncontrolled, get to about 1500agl and call the tower of the destination airport (KPNE) to request a full stop. Tower responds umm are you aware of the TFR? Your supposed to be on a special transponder code. I reply uh no maybe I should return to my home airport??? ( I was only about 3 or 4 miles away from it at this point) tower replied I would suggest that. I re enter the pattern at my home airport and hear on the unicom the airport ops guy calling me asking if I'm landing because philly approach just called saying I was in the TFR and fighters are on their way to intercept me... I land and the the ops guys gIve me a phone number from Philly approach with instructions for me to call them immediately. I learn there is a 30mile wide TFR around Philly for the president.. it blankets my home airport... well I'm screwed I think. I call philly approach and they said they just need to take some information for a possible pilot deviation. He wanted to know my name info and why I was flying. I explain everything and he said the FSDO will mostly call me. Hes only their to collect my information...

Well how screwed am I? I did a quick Google search that ended up with 100k in fines, possible prison time, and me losing my license. Yes I'm an idiot, yes I should have got a wx brief or at least glanced at foreflight. I wasnt even planning on flying that day because the guy coming to look at the plane didnt have time to fly, he just wanted to look the plane over and schedule a pre buy assuming everything looked well. I guess looking outside and seeing clear blue skies made me feel safe enough to fly 12 miles but clearly that was a major mistake.. I'm waiting on a call from the FSDO.. will they call me today or Monday? Anyone have any experience with this??? I'm ****ting bricks right now.
 
AnthonyS1 said:
Titled spells it out exactly... Met with a potential buyer for our aircraft at the airport this morning. We agreed on a price and we decided to fly the airplane to another airport (KPNE) 12 miles away so he could do his pre buy. I take off at my airport (N14) which is uncontrolled, get to about 1500agl and call the tower of the destination airport (KPNE) to request a full stop. Tower responds umm are you aware of the TFR? Your supposed to be on a special transponder code. I reply uh no maybe I should return to my home airport??? ( I was only about 3 or 4 miles away from it at this point) tower replied I would suggest that. I re enter the pattern at my home airport and hear on the unicom the airport ops guy calling me asking if I'm landing because philly approach just called saying I was in the TFR and fighters are on their way to intercept me... I land and the the ops guys gIve me a phone number from Philly approach with instructions for me to call them immediately. I learn there is a 30mile wide TFR around Philly for the president.. it blankets my home airport... well I'm screwed I think. I call philly approach and they said they just need to take some information for a possible pilot deviation. He wanted to know my name info and why I was flying. I explain everything and he said the FSDO will mostly call me. Hes only their to collect my information...

Well how screwed am I? I did a quick Google search that ended up with 100k in fines, possible prison time, and me losing my license. Yes I'm an idiot, yes I should have got a wx brief or at least glanced at foreflight. I wasnt even planning on flying that day because the guy coming to look at the plane didnt have time to fly, he just wanted to look the plane over and schedule a pre buy assuming everything looked well. I guess looking outside and seeing clear blue skies made me feel safe enough to fly 12 miles but clearly that was a major mistake.. I'm waiting on a call from the FSDO.. will they call me today or Monday? Anyone have any experience with this??? I'm ****ting bricks right now.
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Do you have a place to stay in Mexico? Get and file an ASRS form (this is your official story and confession: don't go changing it...sounds like an innocent error to me).
 
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FlySince9 said:
I have no official knowledge, but I wouldn't worry too much... Innocent enough and no ill intent. The big fines and jail time are for bigger fish than you...
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I really hope your right. I just filed a NASA report.
 
I would have filed a nasa report as well. May not help but can’t hurt.

I would be open and honest with them and hope the “kinder and gentler” FAA just has a talk with you about the importance of flight briefings.

Based on past TFR violations that I have read about, I suspect a 30 day suspension is probably your worst case.

I would be honest, open and humble with them.
 
How did you not know about the TFR? That's going to be a question that comes up.
 
You will be contacted by FAA, you’ll be asked to explain what happened, don’t lie, step up say you screwed up by not doing a proper flight planning.
They will send you a list of online courses, you’ll have to take a minimum number, after passing them, you’ll be free to go.
 
My cousin did this more than a decade ago now and lost her license for 6 months. She was intercepted and escorted to a military base for debriefing so you might get off easier, but I kind of doubt it in today’s climate.

Frankly if they scrambled jets because of you, I’d be amazed if nothing happened.
 
Be pro-active and take some online courses about pre flight briefing prior to being contacted by the FSDO.
 
The Army/Navy game is going on in Philadelphia right now, the President is there.

edit: somewhere, somehow, I got signed up for email TFR notices. I think it's AOPA. I got one a couple days ago when the President was coming to KC yesterday.

This won't help you now, but it's a good way to get a heads up.
 
Man that blows. Keep us posted on the end result. Hope it didn’t sour the potential sale though
 
The fact that you landed before the jets is good, now if they actually did send the jets up, well that might not be too good.

You did the NASA, don’t go trying to change your story, I’d also look into a aviation attorney, AOPA pre paid legal is kinda a joke, I’d also imagine these days where if the president even farts you get a million mile TFR, this might be more common than you think.
 
biplanebob said:
Be pro-active and take some online courses about pre flight briefing prior to being contacted by the FSDO.
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I'll have to look into this. Sounds like a good idea.

benyflyguy said:
Man that blows. Keep us posted on the end result. Hope it didn’t sour the potential sale though
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I called the guy and told him I wasn't going to make it KPNE with the plane. He felt horrible that is happened to me and then laughed saying thank god I wasn't in the plane with you.

James331 said:
The fact that you landed before the jets is good, now if they actually did send the jets up, well that might not be too good.

You did the NASA, don’t go trying to change your story, I’d also look into a aviation attorney, AOPA pre paid legal is kinda a joke, I’d also imagine these days where if the president even farts you get a million mile TFR, this might be more common than you think.
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What will a lawyer do for me?
 
AnthonyS1 said:
I'll have to look into this. Sounds like a good idea.


I called the guy and told him I wasn't going to make it KPNE with the plane. He felt horrible that is happened to me and then laughed saying thank god I wasn't in the plane with you.



What will a lawyer do for me?
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Well when the government might not have your best interests in mind, that’s what god made lawyers and CPAs for.
 
Presidential TFR.

The FSDO may not have much discretion - the security folks dictate how penalties are handled. At one time the word was that it was a pretty much mandatory minimum 30 day suspension in the DC area. No personal experience.
 
Not checking weather for a 12 mike flight is one thing (even though it should be done), but not checking NOTAMS.... Those can pop up anytime. Runway closures, TFR’s, temporary tower frequency, any number of things.
 
OP should get foreflight or something on his phone, takes like 20 seconds to do a quick check for a short hop like that.
 
BTW, it could take a week for the bureaucracy to makes to you, they will call you first, then interview you over the phone.
 
There was a VIP TFR bust about a year and a half ago, by a pilot out of Carlisle, PA , story and Link attached :
hangaround.co/2017/10/05/flew-presidential-tfr/

The pilot owned up to the mistake, was co-operative with the FAA, it ended well.
 
asicer said:
Bookmarking skyvector.com on the phone's browser usually works too.
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Some of my co workers have good luck with the fltplan app too as far as free goes.
 
A speaker at OSH in the AOPA tent for Bahama's 101 said if they have to scramble the ready birds you will get the bill for the flight. 25K plus. Don't know if they do same for TFR bust. I take it your local field has no AWOS? You might have caught it there if they included the TFR
 
Hopefully they will treat it as a simple pilot deviation,which usually ends up with re training. This goes above the local ATC.
 
Kritchlow said:
Not checking weather for a 12 mike flight is one thing (even though it should be done), but not checking NOTAMS.... Those can pop up anytime. Runway closures, TFR’s, temporary tower frequency, any number of things.
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OK, OK. This is a good example of why we should always strive to be good, detail-oriemted pilots. Your point about NOTAMS is particularly germane. Thanks.
 
Admit to nothing, deny everything, demand proof, claim you had a certain Senator from Oklahoma with you.
 
Clip4 said:
Admit to nothing, deny everything, demand proof, claim you had a certain Senator from Oklahoma with you.
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Just don’t leave your plane parked on clip’s ramp, whatever you do. :p
 
Hopefully I hear sooner than later. The wait is going to be painful.. The ops guy said the approach controller told him jets were sent to intercept me. Is it possible they were already in the air due to the army navy game? I really hope I'm not expected to pay a 25k tab.. I read the story about the guy in PA... made me feel a little bit better. I always have my ipad with me to fly but I didnt even bring it to the airport because I want planning on flying..

Wanted to go check out this bonanza for sale next weekend.. looks like gonna have to hold off on that. I really just hope I will get the terms of my fate on Monday and not 2 weeks from now. Thanks for the advice everyone.
 
AnthonyS1 said:
Hopefully I hear sooner than later. The wait is going to be painful.. The ops guy said the approach controller told him jets were sent to intercept me. Is it possible they were already in the air due to the army navy game? I really hope I'm not expected to pay a 25k tab.. I read the story about the guy in PA... made me feel a little bit better. I always have my ipad with me to fly but I didnt even bring it to the airport because I want planning on flying..

Wanted to go check out this bonanza for sale next weekend.. looks like gonna have to hold off on that. I really just hope I will get the terms of my fate on Monday and not 2 weeks from now. Thanks for the advice everyone.
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I highly doubt you will have a final verdict by Monday. My guess is it may take a couple of months for it to be completely resolved.
 
AnthonyS1 said:
I'm waiting on a call from the FSDO.. will they call me today or Monday? Anyone have any experience with this??? I'm ****ting bricks right now.
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If it is a phone call it won't come on a weekend or holiday. It will probably take at least 2-4 weeks for the feds to get their notes together. First comes a phone call basically making sure you are the right person, and then explaining what happens next. You may be asked to write a quick paragraph giving your side of the story. Don't do it. That is just a quick confession from you to make their job easier. Don't refuse, at the very least say you will see what you can come up with.

Then about 4 to 6 weeks later you will get a registered letter from the FAA, a Notice of Proposed Certificate Action from regional, in the letter they will throw the book at you with probably careless and reckless (91.13[a]), flying into a TFR, failing to do pre flight planning and a 120 to 180 day suspension. Some folks will tell you that hiring a lawyer will only pizz off the FAA. Well, the FAA has thousands of lawyers working for them so why shouldn't you have just one, if just only to advise you. I mean the violation is pretty cut and dry. You won't get a verbal spanking over the phone.

After the Proposed Certificate Action letter, you will have a choice. You can accept their terms or ask for an informal conference, usually done over the phone. Then this is where a lawyer helps you to negotiate the punishment. The informal conference will be with a FAA lawyer, so remember that this is a civil, not criminal matter. They do not have to advise you of your rights. They know all the tricks to get you to confess. At this point negotiation is the game being played. Be professional. Don't argue. Ask questions if you do not understand something. You want the punishment to be as less as possible, the FAA lawyer wants to show something was done. Understand it was the Secret Service, not the TSA, that requested that the FAA impose a suspension for even first-time TFR violators. In most cases the FAA assumes you are a pilot who has unintentionally made a mistake, and that you will benefit from counseling or training to mend your ways. The Secret Service assumes you are a potential threat. Understandable but it could learn from the FAA's experience that a softer glove is more effective.

I am guessing you just hold a PPL so then this may turn into an educational moment instead of punishment. Hopefully all you will have to do some remedial training with an instructor.

Filing a NASA form is good. It won't stop the violation from going on your record but for most offenses this will waive a suspension.

Good luck to ya bud. This won't be fun and painless. And keep us informed.
 
AnthonyS1 said:
Titled spells it out exactly... Met with a potential buyer for our aircraft at the airport this morning. We agreed on a price and we decided to fly the airplane to another airport (KPNE) 12 miles away so he could do his pre buy. I take off at my airport (N14) which is uncontrolled, get to about 1500agl and call the tower of the destination airport (KPNE) to request a full stop. Tower responds umm are you aware of the TFR? Your supposed to be on a special transponder code. I reply uh no maybe I should return to my home airport??? ( I was only about 3 or 4 miles away from it at this point) tower replied I would suggest that. I re enter the pattern at my home airport and hear on the unicom the airport ops guy calling me asking if I'm landing because philly approach just called saying I was in the TFR and fighters are on their way to intercept me... I land and the the ops guys gIve me a phone number from Philly approach with instructions for me to call them immediately. I learn there is a 30mile wide TFR around Philly for the president.. it blankets my home airport... well I'm screwed I think. I call philly approach and they said they just need to take some information for a possible pilot deviation. He wanted to know my name info and why I was flying. I explain everything and he said the FSDO will mostly call me. Hes only their to collect my information...

Well how screwed am I? I did a quick Google search that ended up with 100k in fines, possible prison time, and me losing my license. Yes I'm an idiot, yes I should have got a wx brief or at least glanced at foreflight. I wasnt even planning on flying that day because the guy coming to look at the plane didnt have time to fly, he just wanted to look the plane over and schedule a pre buy assuming everything looked well. I guess looking outside and seeing clear blue skies made me feel safe enough to fly 12 miles but clearly that was a major mistake.. I'm waiting on a call from the FSDO.. will they call me today or Monday? Anyone have any experience with this??? I'm ****ting bricks right now.
Click to expand...

Definitely post about it on the internet
 
Zeldman said:
If it is a phone call it won't come on a weekend or holiday. It will probably take at least 2-4 weeks for the feds to get their notes together. First comes a phone call basically making sure you are the right person, and then explaining what happens next. You may be asked to write a quick paragraph giving your side of the story. Don't do it. That is just a quick confession from you to make their job easier. Don't refuse, at the very least say you will see what you can come up with.

Then about 4 to 6 weeks later you will get a registered letter from the FAA, a Notice of Proposed Certificate Action from regional, in the letter they will throw the book at you with probably careless and reckless (91.13[a]), flying into a TFR, failing to do pre flight planning and a 120 to 180 day suspension. Some folks will tell you that hiring a lawyer will only pizz off the FAA. Well, the FAA has thousands of lawyers working for them so why shouldn't you have just one, if just only to advise you. I mean the violation is pretty cut and dry. You won't get a verbal spanking over the phone.

After the Proposed Certificate Action letter, you will have a choice. You can accept their terms or ask for an informal conference, usually done over the phone. Then this is where a lawyer helps you to negotiate the punishment. The informal conference will be with a FAA lawyer, so remember that this is a civil, not criminal matter. They do not have to advise you of your rights. They know all the tricks to get you to confess. At this point negotiation is the game being played. Be professional. Don't argue. Ask questions if you do not understand something. You want the punishment to be as less as possible, the FAA lawyer wants to show something was done. Understand it was the Secret Service, not the TSA, that requested that the FAA impose a suspension for even first-time TFR violators. In most cases the FAA assumes you are a pilot who has unintentionally made a mistake, and that you will benefit from counseling or training to mend your ways. The Secret Service assumes you are a potential threat. Understandable but it could learn from the FAA's experience that a softer glove is more effective.

I am guessing you just hold a PPL so then this may turn into an educational moment instead of punishment. Hopefully all you will have to do some remedial training with an instructor.

Filing a NASA form is good. It won't stop the violation from going on your record but for most offenses this will waive a suspension.

Good luck to ya bud. This won't be fun and painless. And keep us informed.
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Yes, no way should you ever confess. They only have your voice on the tower recording, witnesses at your airport of landing, your voice recorded on a Tracon phone, and your tail number if your Mode S.

What will happen will vary with the FSDO the violation occurred and the inspector assigned. Some are less hammer down than others.
 
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