Flew through a TFR.

Zeldman said:
If it is a phone call it won't come on a weekend or holiday. It will probably take at least 2-4 weeks for the feds to get their notes together. First comes a phone call basically making sure you are the right person, and then explaining what happens next. You may be asked to write a quick paragraph giving your side of the story. Don't do it. That is just a quick confession from you to make their job easier. Don't refuse, at the very least say you will see what you can come up with.

Then about 4 to 6 weeks later you will get a registered letter from the FAA, a Notice of Proposed Certificate Action from regional, in the letter they will throw the book at you with probably careless and reckless (91.13[a]), flying into a TFR, failing to do pre flight planning and a 120 to 180 day suspension. Some folks will tell you that hiring a lawyer will only pizz off the FAA. Well, the FAA has thousands of lawyers working for them so why shouldn't you have just one, if just only to advise you. I mean the violation is pretty cut and dry. You won't get a verbal spanking over the phone.

After the Proposed Certificate Action letter, you will have a choice. You can accept their terms or ask for an informal conference, usually done over the phone. Then this is where a lawyer helps you to negotiate the punishment. The informal conference will be with a FAA lawyer, so remember that this is a civil, not criminal matter. They do not have to advise you of your rights. They know all the tricks to get you to confess. At this point negotiation is the game being played. Be professional. Don't argue. Ask questions if you do not understand something. You want the punishment to be as less as possible, the FAA lawyer wants to show something was done. Understand it was the Secret Service, not the TSA, that requested that the FAA impose a suspension for even first-time TFR violators. In most cases the FAA assumes you are a pilot who has unintentionally made a mistake, and that you will benefit from counseling or training to mend your ways. The Secret Service assumes you are a potential threat. Understandable but it could learn from the FAA's experience that a softer glove is more effective.

I am guessing you just hold a PPL so then this may turn into an educational moment instead of punishment. Hopefully all you will have to do some remedial training with an instructor.

Filing a NASA form is good. It won't stop the violation from going on your record but for most offenses this will waive a suspension.

Good luck to ya bud. This won't be fun and painless. And keep us informed.
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What a bunch of malarkey
 
As a former FAA/CAA technical worker, I am always reminded of the phrase, "The mills of the Gods grind amazingly slowly, but they grind amazingly fine." In other words the machinery will eventually spit out what you are waiting for.
 
Well, you weren't taken into custody so the Secret Service probably wasn't too worried about you....that's good.

Too bad the buyer wasn't the PIC.

I bet it takes more than 2 weeks to hear from them.
 
Mooney Fan said:
I take it your local field has no AWOS? You might have caught it there if they included the TFR
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I've mentioned this before in other threads, but I'll reiterate here. An ASOS/AWOS is not an ATIS, and should not be depended on to provide anything more than weather. True, some AWOS have an ability to add a voice recording, and some airports have used that for NOTAMs. But it is neither required, or even available at all airports. Please, please check NOTAMs via regular sources.
 
Be honest and don’t hide anything. If you want a lawyer then that’s perfectly acceptable. You might get a Compliance Action or an Enforcement.
 
Don't sweat whether the intercept was initiated - it's a training square filled for them, and no one is going to bill you for the F-16 fuel or flight time - and it doesn't materially change the facts. The Guard won't complain, and the FAA doesn't really care about the cost. I fly out of the DC FRZ, and sometimes TFRs pop-up, with little or no notice, but I think in your case it was probably NOTAM'ed well in advance. So, no excuse there. . .

You did some things right - you bolted back when you found out about the TFR, you didn't try to hide, or BS anyone; get some legal advice, for sure, but if the local cops didn't meet you, and no one with a gun has shown up to talk to you, my knee jerk reaction is it'll be between just you and the FAA.
 
Matthew said:
The Army/Navy game is going on in Philadelphia right now, the President is there.

edit: somewhere, somehow, I got signed up for email TFR notices. I think it's AOPA. I got one a couple days ago when the President was coming to KC yesterday.

This won't help you now, but it's a good way to get a heads up.
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Look at Faasafety.gov and sign yourself up for TFR email notifications if you aren't an aopa member.
 
midwestpa24 said:
I've mentioned this before in other threads, but I'll reiterate here. An ASOS/AWOS is not an ATIS, and should not be depended on to provide anything more than weather. True, some AWOS have an ability to add a voice recording, and some airports have used that for NOTAMs. But it is neither required, or even available at all airports. Please, please check NOTAMs via regular sources.
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I never implied AWOS was a reliable information source for TFR or runway closures... only that it 'might' have included the TFR. In my experience I have heard about fuel pumps closed for service and or runway closures via AWOS. Of course NOTAMS should be checked.
 
You’re not going to jail, paying any fines or getting your PPL revoked. With the FAAs compliance philosophy, you’ll at most get a 30 day suspension for a first time inadvertent TFR bust. Your situation doesn’t qualify but hopefully you’ll just get remedial training.
 
So if you get a 30 day suspension can you fly with an instructor or are you grounded.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Foreflight will let you know about TFR's right up until the time it doesn't.
Preflight briefings will let you know about TFR's right up until the time they don't.
Sometimes you just be skrewt.

http://hangaround.co/2017/10/05/flew-presidential-tfr/
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Thank you for posting this link, and for the OP for telling his story. If someone can't learn from the guy's story, the least you can do it leave him alone. Making jokes about it is the height of arrogance and invulnerability - a hazardous attitude that will eventually get you in trouble. This posting has reminded me that I too have fallen out of the habit of calling 800-wxbrief for TFR information, and have relied mostly on email alerts and flight apps. This is a good reminder that none of them contain the last word on TFR.

I hope things work out well for the OP, and I hope he has the sense to ignore the monkeys in this forum.
 
I haven't used foreflight for a long time. Does it do full briefings and store the session? Or is just view while connected?

I use weathermeister.com and it logs the briefing sessions, similar to if you call 800-wxbrief. This means that there is a record of collecting all information relating to the flight and if you briefed the flight 15 minutes before launch but the TFR popped up 5 minutes before than you could show that you made a reasonable effort.
 
My problem with the advice of "always call 800-wxbrief to ensure you're safe from TFRs"...try asking them about stadium TFRs, and see what you get for an answer (if you haven't tried it, I'll just tell you now: they usually have no idea).
 
PaulS said:
So if you get a 30 day suspension can you fly with an instructor or are you grounded.
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A person can fly on a suspended certificate as long as there is another pilot in the plane that is qualified to be PIC for that plane, and current medical.
 
tawood said:
My problem with the advice of "always call 800-wxbrief to ensure you're safe from TFRs"...try asking them about stadium TFRs, and see what you get for an answer (if you haven't tried it, I'll just tell you now: they usually have no idea).
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That's interesting. But how does that happen? They are looking at the same NOTAM database. If they missed it, then at least it is on tape that you requested a briefing and they failed to provide that information.
 
If I get my on-line briefing from LocMart before I leave the house and there is no TFR listed, I've done what I need to do. I've played the game. I've complied with the rules. It ain't my fault that the system is totally effed up, and I just ain't gonna worry about it. If the FAA wants to shut me down for 30 or 60 days, then they are going to do what they are going to do. Perhaps I could get Mr. 6PC to help me make a youtube video about it.
 
sarangan said:
But how does that happen?
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How does what happen? If you bust a stadium TFR, then it's on you because LocMart told you that they can't tell you one way or the udder and it's up to you to check the MLB, NLF, Nascar, NCAA, whatever schedules and be aware of any overtime or game delays. It's on you, not LocMart, not the FAA, you.
 
sarangan said:
That's interesting. But how does that happen? They are looking at the same NOTAM database. If they missed it, then at least it is on tape that you requested a briefing and they failed to provide that information.
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Because stadium TFRs aren't usually in the NOTAM database. As @Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe points out, its on you to find them.

To avoid them, I've heard some recommend always flying IFR, while others say never fly cross country under 3500 AGL. Of course at some point you have to land...
 
Ravioli said:
I haven't used foreflight for a long time. Does it do full briefings and store the session? Or is just view while connected?

I use weathermeister.com and it logs the briefing sessions, similar to if you call 800-wxbrief. This means that there is a record of collecting all information relating to the flight and if you briefed the flight 15 minutes before launch but the TFR popped up 5 minutes before than you could show that you made a reasonable effort.
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Weathermeister is an excellent product. Everything on one page and the graphical map has always been accurate and up to date in displaying TFRs in my experience.
 
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I do thank you for sharing, and will try to learn from your mistake. I hope you fair well.
 
tawood said:
My problem with the advice of "always call 800-wxbrief to ensure you're safe from TFRs"...try asking them about stadium TFRs, and see what you get for an answer (if you haven't tried it, I'll just tell you now: they usually have no idea).
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Why would that be your problem? If you call for the briefing you are on record and any TFR bust won’t be on you.

Great article btw linked by @Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
 
I, for one, find a lot of introspective value in the OP's post. Like most of us, I like to think of myself as a reasonably diligent pilot, but can I truly say I check all of the NOTAMs, call for a briefing, every time I decide to fly on a clear and a million day like today?

I am signed-up for the alerts for TFR airspace, and that is useful, but (as others have noted) subscribing to alerts hardly discharges your responsibility in this respect.

To the OP: Best of luck!
 
Zero times. The answer to this question is zero times. I always, at minimum, open up Avare and download weather and TFRs. Before every flight. Always.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
 
woodchucker said:
Why would that be your problem? If you call for the briefing you are on record and any TFR bust won’t be on you.
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Except stadiums, then it is on you.

And, even if in the end, TSA decides that you broke no laws...

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media...lessons-learned-from-sheriff-in-glider-arrest

"But he defended the decision to hold Robin Fleming overnight and charge him with breach of peace. He said the local FBI had told them to hold the pilot for questioning, something they couldn’t do without a charge. The breach of peace charge is minor, he said, used for anything out of the ordinary, especially something that causes a law enforcement response."

In other words: we decided to throw him in jail and came up with an excuse after the fact.
 
Yesterday's stadium TFR would have been an odd case. There was an NCAA Division 1 game so the stadium TFR would have been in effect, and the President was there, too, so that TFR would have been on top of it.

With college bowl season coming up, be ready for more stadium TFRs.
 
yah, the stadium TFR's are usually easy if you're on Flight Following and coming to land. But I still ask to tie up the freq a bit to make sure they know. [aggies and horned frogs mess with my routes sometimes]
 
sarangan said:
invulnerability
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invulnerability is that really the word you wanted to use?

Definition of invulnerable. 1 : incapable of being wounded, injured, or harmed. 2 : immune to or proof against attack : impregnable

"a hazardous attitude that will eventually get you in trouble." How can I get into trouble if I am at the height of invulnerability?

I know that you are a CFII and all but...

Kind Regards,
Morgan3820, PLL, IR, ME, CAF, BOC, Knights of the Garter, and many more..
 
Morgan3820 said:
invulnerability is that really the word you wanted to use?

Definition of invulnerable. 1 : incapable of being wounded, injured, or harmed. 2 : immune to or proof against attack : impregnable

"a hazardous attitude that will eventually get you in trouble." How can I get into trouble if I am at the height of invulnerability?

I know that you are a CFII and all but...

Kind Regards,
Morgan3820, PLL, IR, ME, CAF, BOC, Knights of the Garter, and many more..
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"Invulnerability" is an FAA-identified hazardous attitude. The way they use it, it's a sort of shorthand for thinking/feeling/acting like you're invulnerable, which is an obviously hazardous attitude to have.

See Figure 2-4:

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/phak/media/04_phak_ch2.pdf
 
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