First time builder....Cozy!

Tom-D said:
If you can't commit to a second full time job of building a Cozy, then don't start. I see way to many projects that simply don't get built, simply because the builder can't stay committed.
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Yep, if you are wanting a plane to fly, don't build it if you don't have the time and a lot of money budgeted to spend not only on materials but professional help as well. The only way I would take on a build project is like with the Glasair Sportsman "2 week to taxi" program where you build the plane at the factory with factory help. Is it expensive? Yes, but you will have a flying aircraft at the end of a reasonable length process and you will save materials as well by being prevented mistakes.

Realistically though, you can buy nearly finished or already flying copies for less than it will cost to build, if you want a Cozy to fly, this is the route I recommend.

Now OTOH, if you want to do it because you want to build an airplane yourself from scratch, then more power to you. My advise is to not skimp on layup tools, you need a few rollers in various size and shapes. Try to work as accurately as you can with regards to resin volume to saturate the substrate. Try to avoid going heavy, it really doesn't buy you anything. Without vacuum bagging, you will be relying on your rollers to assure saturation, so get good ones and get spares. Layup work is within the grasp of most anyone to create a safe structure, it is simple and forgiving to work with. There are some tricks to optimizing the structure though.

Fairing is made pretty simple if you use West Systems 410 Ultralight Fairing Filler (regardless which brand resin system you use), it has excellent working and durability properties as well as being extremely light weight. They make 2" wide compressed neoprene sanding blocks that take 2" roll, adhesive backed, sandpaper. They come in various lengths, I like a 3', an 18", and a 6". If you need to do a lot of sanding, you can mount a 3' one on an inline pneumatic sander and really speed the process. Also don't be shy with filler on the first go around, slather it on, sand it off. The closer you can get to getting everything on the first round, the better off you are not only in time, but materials as well. You're gonna use a ****load of fairing compound on a plug build no matter how you go about it.:lol:

Oh yeah, don't use an orbital sander whenever you can avoid it fairing, it's really difficult to make a fair surface with one.
 
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Henning said:
The only thing about the foam plug building method is all the fairing work that it needs, plus controlling the lay up with vacuum bagging is a tricky deal. Also with the styrene foam core you have to use epoxy resin which is twice as much as Vinylester and four times as much as Polyester. I can produce a much better product almost as quickly and cheaper by cutting a mold out of polyester then building a product in it using a vacuum bag process and correct minimum resin amounts for the matrix.

It's a lot faster and easier to build a high quality layup in a mold. Plus once you have a set of molds, now you can produce kits.
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Okay, how much to build me a Long Ez fuselage mold ? :D
 
Art VanDelay said:
Okay, how much to build me a Long Ez fuselage mold ? :D
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Paying for my time as a 'one off' project? About half what it would cost to build the fuselage. Can I get digitized plans? If so I'd use a CNC plug cutting process.

I'd have use either a more expensive foam or a more expensive epoxy fairing compound to finish and fair the plug with a durable, wax-able, finish, then spray it with a good thick layer of tooling gelcoat and lay up my polyester resin mold.
Since I can now build the structure using poly or vinyl ester resin rather than epoxy I can save a bunch of material cost and would come out only slightly more expensive on the finished product on a one off basis. The ability to vacuum bag provides me a lot better quality control over the layup process.

The real advantage over a cored construction using polystyrene foam is you aren't relying on foam/FRG interface cohesion for structural integrity. This is more of an issue with wings from what I have seen of these types of plans than the fuselage. With a mold you can build ribs and structural risers to reinforce shape and add strength, which in a composite type structure opens up a lot of available structure volume for fuel.
 
Well i have spent the last few days researching like a mad man. Lycoming power plant is what im going to stick with. No reason for me to take on the additional complexity of an non-standard engine.
 
You might also look at some of the other kits on the market. The Van's RV14 would do everything a Cozy will do plus has a bigger cockpit and the ability to take off and land in less than 1/3 the distance of a Cozy. You can also buy it in increments and you could finish it it less than half the time as the Cozy. I am one who has developed severe allergies to some epoxies and I can tell you it is no fun. I had a Lancair 360 airframe almost finished and had to give up and sell it. Don
 
yakdriver said:
You might also look at some of the other kits on the market. The Van's RV14 would do everything a Cozy will do plus has a bigger cockpit and the ability to take off and land in less than 1/3 the distance of a Cozy. You can also buy it in increments and you could finish it it less than half the time as the Cozy. I am one who has developed severe allergies to some epoxies and I can tell you it is no fun. I had a Lancair 360 airframe almost finished and had to give up and sell it. Don
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I did look long and hard at the RV line up, especially the RV10 which seems to be really the industry leader in terms of being an all-rounder.

BUT I spent a lot of time researching before making my decision, and I really did just fall in love with the Cozy. I plan on taking as many precautions as possible to prevent allergies, but obviously if I DO suffer like many others do, I will need to take a look at something else, most likely something from Vans.
 
If at all possible go fly a Cozy before you build preferably on a hot day. As you well know it is hot and humid in Houston and just plain hot in the south all summer long. I think you will find that alone will restrict you from going into a lot of smaller airports. My friend's Cozy will be flying soon so I will be able to give you a pilot report as he will let me fly it. Don
 
yakdriver said:
You might also look at some of the other kits on the market. The Van's RV14 would do everything a Cozy will do plus has a bigger cockpit and the ability to take off and land in less than 1/3 the distance of a Cozy. You can also buy it in increments and you could finish it it less than half the time as the Cozy. I am one who has developed severe allergies to some epoxies and I can tell you it is no fun. I had a Lancair 360 airframe almost finished and had to give up and sell it. Don
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You can't put 4 people in a RV-14. But Vans does make a fine product - I'm just allergic to bucked rivets ! :D
 
yakdriver said:
If at all possible go fly a Cozy before you build preferably on a hot day. As you well know it is hot and humid in Houston and just plain hot in the south all summer long. I think you will find that alone will restrict you from going into a lot of smaller airports. My friend's Cozy will be flying soon so I will be able to give you a pilot report as he will let me fly it. Don
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I have found 2 "flying" cozy owners down here in Houston so I have already arranged to bum a ride once I get home to Houston (Working overseas right now). Ok...its not summertime hot....but still will be fun:D
 
perhaps a Velocity would give you an easier build, but still canard...?

pretty airplanes

Velocity-Aircraft_large.jpg
 
Henning said:
If I could cut the mold off a faired plane, it would be close, need at least 2 days of waxing and prepping first though.
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buff it and shoot it with never wet, and never wax a plug again.
 
StevieTimes said:
perhaps a Velocity would give you an easier build, but still canard...?

pretty airplanes
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Its a great looking airplane, but I didnt really want to build from a kit. I did think about the Velocity XL...and if I ever want a twin then I will look at the V-Twin...beautiful aircraft:yes:
 
If serIous IFR is the goal, I'd seriously rethink using a plastic airplane. If you just want a gee-whiz panel in a VFR ship, there are way better things out there than the GTN series.
 
flyingron said:
If serIous IFR is the goal, I'd seriously rethink using a plastic airplane. If you just want a gee-whiz panel in a VFR ship, there are way better things out there than the GTN series.
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Why not a composite plane?
 
Velocity173 said:
If you get hit by lightning your plane will explode and you'll be left flying through the air with just a stick in your hand.:wink2:
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In a DA-20 that is kinda what happens, the wing attach fittings super heat and the composite surrounding them explodes.:hairraise: That's why not certified in IMC.
 
They must add metal mesh for lightning protection in the higher end composite kit planes?
 
ClimbnSink said:
They must add metal mesh for lightning protection in the higher end composite kit planes?
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Yes, they do.;) When properly designed and constructed this is not a particular issue for composites. As far as that goes, the engineering is known even if not chosen, and execution isn't particularly difficult. The problem with the DA-20 design is that those fittings act like the core of a capacitor, taking in all this energy and not giving it anywhere to go. This creates heat until it pops the capacitor and finds an escape. If you build a simple Faraday cage to rout the energy around and away with little resistance, the effects are typically not dire*, mostly radio damage if any.

*I worked on a Navajo that took a strike on the rudder that melted out the bonding straps (looked like popped fuse elements) and the rudder bearings we badly pitted and damaged.
 
Well,

I guess all those Velocities flying along with Glasairs and Lancairs better stay grounded. I just flew my Glasair 2000 NM and dodged T-Storms for roughly 600 miles of the trip. Lightning strike was the least of my worries. The single fan out front was the biggest.
 
http://www.pas.rochester.edu/~cline/ASK lightning strike/ASK accident report.htm
Look at the pretty pictures. Just another number on the Reaper's roulette wheel. How do you break that accident chain? :hairraise:
toddsanderson said:
Well,

I guess all those Velocities flying along with Glasairs and Lancairs better stay grounded. I just flew my Glasair 2000 NM and dodged T-Storms for roughly 600 miles of the trip. Lightning strike was the least of my worries. The single fan out front was the biggest.
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I'm not disputing the fact that lightning is dangerous to composite aircraft, but it is almost insignificant as compared to losing an engine, CFIT, or any other mechanical failure.

We can see thunderstorms with Nexrad and Stormscopes. I choose to give them wide berth and go around them. Flying IFR never should include penetrating thunderstorms in any aircraft. Give them 25+ miles and you will be fine.

I will take thunderstorms I can see (with proper equipment) over an engine or airframe failure I do not see coming.
 
toddsanderson said:
I'm not disputing the fact that lightning is dangerous to composite aircraft, but it is almost insignificant as compared to losing an engine, CFIT, or any other mechanical failure.

We can see thunderstorms with Nexrad and Stormscopes. I choose to give them wide berth and go around them. Flying IFR never should include penetrating thunderstorms in any aircraft. Give them 25+ miles and you will be fine.

I will take thunderstorms I can see (with proper equipment) over an engine or airframe failure I do not see coming.
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Without a doubt, but it doesn't take much to turn it from a long shot issue to a non issue with a small bit of additional weight and cost.
 
Henning said:
Without a doubt, but it doesn't take much to turn it from a long shot issue to a non issue with a small bit of additional weight and cost.
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Yeah but how many people have taken the time to do that? I know of only one Glasair III that was lightning proof and that was a factory modified example that was tested by NASA. Glasair and Lancair kits already come with the fuse and wing halves done. No way of putting a mesh in the wing at that point and it would be a mess trying to use a conductive film on the surface. I suppose you could use a conductive paint but I don't think too many builders have done that either.

I've never read any guidance from Burt Rutan about lightning protection on his designs either. Voyager even flew around the world with no Lightning protection. The canard community (Canard Zone) just simply say stay away from thunderstorms. For the majority of composite homebuilts I'd say that's good advice.
 
Velocity173 said:
If you get hit by lightning your plane will explode and you'll be left flying through the air with just a stick in your hand.:wink2:
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It's not just lightning. The problem is the non-conductive skin means that every piece of metal in that cockpit is going to pick up a charge if you're in precip or anywhere near convective activity. It can be quite annoying to have nasty zaps off all your interior metal.
 
So I have a few weeks before my EAA composite course, I think it would be better for me to wait until the class before getting elbow deep in epoxy, so I am going to use the time to prepare my workspace. What should I be preparing? I assume a worktable? Should I build a full worktable? Or would a surface held up by 2 sawhorses be sufficent? What size of surface should I be looking at?

Also I assume I will need a hotbox for the epoxy plus a cloth storage cabinet.....anything else?​
 
Have you got the plans yet. Wait until you get them as they will probably have the info for a building table. Don
 
A good vacuum cleaner system, that's what you need most working composites.
 
yakdriver said:
Have you got the plans yet. Wait until you get them as they will probably have the info for a building table. Don
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The plans are at home...unfortunatly I am not....Im working in Kazkakhstan at the moment, so Im using the time to get online and get as much information as possible so I can get stuck into the work when I get home in 2 weeks!
 
deftone said:
I have a good shop-vac...will this be enough or would a more permenant fixed vacuum system be more appropriate?
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A good shop vac is adequate, just more maintenance than a bigger bag system. Just make sure that all your cutting, grinding, and sanding tools have a vacuum hose connector for dust removal and you have plenty of appropriate size hose. Controlling dust is a big part of limiting your reaction to the materials, you want to keep the exposure down. Buy boxes of Tyvek suits and heavy grade nitrile gloves.

Create a 'clean room' in your work area using vapor barrier/sheathing house wrap material. If you are building in your basement or garage, build a transition 'breezeway' to keep from tracking the crap in the house.

Buy a good air compressor.
 
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A GOOD air compressor! Not one of those POS noisy oilless vane compressors like most of the box stores sell. Get a nice 5-10 hp two stage with a 60-80 gallon tank. Don
 
flyingron said:
It's not just lightning. The problem is the non-conductive skin means that every piece of metal in that cockpit is going to pick up a charge if you're in precip or anywhere near convective activity. It can be quite annoying to have nasty zaps off all your interior metal.
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I haven't heard of cases of this being an actual problem - as in documented NTSB reports and the like. As for hard IFR - I'm talking icing and or being within a few miles of cells or penetrating a line in ANY piston single - Its honestly WAY too much work. If anyone thinks differently they've never really done it that many times or just don't know a better way.

If I'm dealt those kind of weather conditions I'll wait it on the ground - most likely in a bar ! With ADS-B in it's really quite easy to see and avoid those areas from a very long way away.
 
yakdriver said:
A GOOD air compressor! Not one of those POS noisy oilless vane compressors like most of the box stores sell. Get a nice 5-10 hp two stage with a 60-80 gallon tank. Don
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I have a good 2-stage already, however I have read that it should not really be used in the same workspace as composite construction due to oil droplets in the air? Seems a little far-fetched to me, can anyone advise?
 
deftone said:
I have a good 2-stage already, however I have read that it should not really be used in the same workspace as composite construction due to oil droplets in the air? Seems a little far-fetched to me, can anyone advise?
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Depends on the compressor, not a bad idea to make an enclosure for it if only for noise deadening. You definitely want a good trap and filter system on the output though and control your compressor drain so you don't blow crap all over.
 
Henning said:
In a DA-20 that is kinda what happens, the wing attach fittings super heat and the composite surrounding them explodes.:hairraise: That's why not certified in IMC.
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Yeah, that happens all the time....
 
Henning said:
A good shop vac is adequate, just more maintenance than a bigger bag system. Just make sure that all your cutting, grinding, and sanding tools have a vacuum hose connector for dust removal and you have plenty of appropriate size hose. Controlling dust is a big part of limiting your reaction to the materials, you want to keep the exposure down. Buy boxes of Tyvek suits and heavy grade nitrile gloves.

Create a 'clean room' in your work area using vapor barrier/sheathing house wrap material. If you are building in your basement or garage, build a transition 'breezeway' to keep from tracking the crap in the house.

Buy a good air compressor.
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Amazing the advice one gets from people that have never built and flown a composite plane. ...but have a few thousand hours sitting behind an autopilot picking their nose.
You'll be much better advised getting out of here and learning who are the knowledgeable multiple builders on the canard forums. This place is mess of useless chit chat by lonely people that feel the need to post on anything and everything that catches their fancy. Sad but true. There are a couple reoccuring threads of actual value but few and far between...And nothing that will help youreducation as much as what I've suggested. If you're serious, go where the content is added by experienced Cozy builders and use this forum for your interest in killing time with nonsense remotely related to aviation, sometimes.
 
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