First annual with my new plane - what would the FAA say?

k9medic

k9medic

Line Up and Wait
Joined
Sep 27, 2018
Messages
920
Location
N Central FL and GTC Bahamas when off work
Display Name
Display name:
ATP-H, CMEL, CSEL, CFI/CFII Airplanes and Helicopters
We decided to pull our new plane into it's first annual with us 2 months early to take advantage of the cooler weather and the fact that we have a busy 2019 flying schedule planned. That and getting a new GTC335 installed to make us ADS-B complaint and to capture the rebate make timing critical.

There are 3 of us working on the annual and we are just about to button it up after two solid days of working on the plane.

While doing the annual, there have been several things that we have identified that make it VERY evident that the previous annuals were most likely nothing more than a swipe of the pen in the logbook. While not monumental, it does show you the quality of work that was performed. The former A&P is a very well known person which is even more frustrating.

In the 9 months and 16 flight hours (12 of which were by me since October) since the last annual we have found some of the following "discrepancies:"

1. Wheel bearing grease on all three wheels are so gritty and nasty that it took a plastic paint scraper to get the old grease out of the wheel. The bearings had to soak in solvent to before we were able to start cleaning.

2. Vacuum pump air filter had not been changed in 5 years. This according to the filter is an annual or 500 hour item, whichever is first.

3. Brake bolts rusted and corroded in the caliper.

4. ELT battery connections corroded in the case.

5. Outboard inspection plates did not show any indication of ever being opened since the plane was repainted in 2013.

6. Old antenna wires terminated and lying on control cables.

I know it take a while to get things in order on a new to you plane but this is just crazy!
 
Is this your first airplane? These are items that I have pretty much come to expect out of most annuals I have seen. Not sure if it's incompetence, laziness, or being rushed to get planes out the door. It's very difficult to find a shop with a nice balance of commons sense, and thoroughness.
 
This is my first personally owned airplane and my Business partner’s third. He is just as surprised as I am.

I figured we would find squawk items but that at least the basics would have been covered. Wheel bearings don’t get encrusted with crap in 16 hours of flying.

Again, nothing that was really safety of flight or an airworthiness issue but simply laziness on the part of the previous Mechanic.

The previous owners were not mechanical at all and it pains me to see that they paid good money to have things done that were never taken care of.
 
I would call the IA or shop which did the most recent annuals and speak with the owner. He may have a mechanic or mechanics half-arsing thing (and creating customer service and/or liability problems for him) or he may run a poor shop. Your call could be illuminating for both of you.
 
I might call the A&P/IA and explain to him what you found and ask him why these items were overlooked. It might open his eyes, might not, but he would know you would most likely not recommend his services to anyone. No FAA, just one on one conversation.

I do my own annuals per say. I open up go through a 100 hour check list, document all discrepancies, hand the list to the IA and have him do the inspection. 2 sets of eyes looking at things works for me...:)
 
k9medic said:
Wheel bearing grease on all three wheels are so gritty and nasty that it took a plastic paint scraper to get the old grease out of the wheel. The bearings had to soak in solvent to before we were able to start cleaning.
Click to expand...
Long term grit in the bearings and you cleaned them instead of replacing them?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ted
Unfortunately, these sort of findings by new owners or owners who change shops are becoming more and more frequent. It also appears to be more prevalent with the independent IA than with ones who work in a shop with others.

I do not know if this is the case with the IA who previously did the annuals or not but one reason some IAs are well known and popular is that they do real quick and cheap annuals. There is a price to pay for that by someone down the road. Hopefully it won’t be the ultimate price but that is always a concern.

And do not think for a minute that your plane is the exception to the rule and that this IA has been doing excellent work on the other aircraft he works on. Your findings are probably very typical of his work. That thought alone should concern you and prompt you to action.

It has been my experience that a customer complaint will not likely get him to change his ways. But if he works in a shop with a boss, I’d start there. That may or may not achieve change. The sad thing is that if you don’t use the shop, you will never see the results of any change.

If he is an independent, I’d start with the FSDO once they open again sometime in the coming weeks or months. At the very least an additional visit or two from them outside of their normal surveillance of the IA might get some results.

And by the way, the FSDO typically does not inspect the independent IA working out of a small hangar or his truck as much as they’d like to and possibly need to. With a small workforce and a high workload, the FSDO work is prioritized towards the certificated shops and commercial operators. That’s why many independents do crappy work. They know they can get away with it.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s not an absolute with independents as there are many good ones but the trend is more predominant with them than with shops with multiple mechanics and inspectors.

So though it might be an unpopular opinion on here, my thoughts are to notify the FAA in cases such as this where it appears the IA missed and/or just skipped a bunch of things and did so over a period of years. This is far different than missing one item on one inspection. That would be where a one on one talk with the IA would be more appropriate. Yours is not such a case. Make the call.
 
Yeah, doesn't seem to earth shattering. I WOULD NOT contact the FSDO because your plane is now back in service to minimums and over and above to your standards. What the previous mechanic did is now no longer your concern.

I like what the other poster said. You've heard great things about the previous shop. Why not give him (owner) the benefit of the doubt. Pass on your list of squawks but not in a judging way. He might have a mechanic who is letting things slide, etc. You can bet he'd want to know about it and remedy if before the FSDO comes in, slows/suspends everything and scours all of his paperwork and everything else related to it.

Dumb question - is there any thing NASA/ASRS related to this type of situation. Maybe for this case it would be the owner who would file something pre-emptively? No clue, but when I have filed the form I recall seeing entries that can be more A&P IA related.
 
Add me to the boat of keeping my mouth shut. For one you have no proof of anything now that you have fixed the discrepancies. If you squawk too much the FSDO can send an independent IA out to inspect your airplane for evidence to go after the last one. They may find issues you both missed and now two people are in hot water. Tell your friends and neighbors instead and hurt the guys business and leave the feds out of it.
 
Absolutely no point in raising these issues with anyone (former shop or otherwise). Fix them as you see fit and move on.
 
After reading this thread, I get the impression that several posters have the concept that the IA has some one else doing the work. Unless the shop is a CRS and the inspection is being signed off by a DOM this would be illegal. (read FAR 43-D)

Next, the FSDO ASIs may come out and look, the the IA will simply tell them "It wasn't that way when I saw it" Unless there is absolute proof that this wasn't true, they can't do much.

and my question is, this is a new to the owner, why wasn't these discrepancies caught on pre-buy?
 
Bill Jennings said:
Define pre-buy
Click to expand...
There ya go. When you request and annual as the pre-buy these discrepancies should have been caught. If the annual had been done, then why are we here now?
 
Bought a plane that was said to be meticulously maintained and the owner spent big money on avionics and his log books were very detailed. Had a prebuy done and it came back clean with the only squak being the fuel amount is not on the wings.

Less than 60 days of owning it I have had to put over $6,000 in it. Flap gauge didn't work. Flap pedometer was bad. Lost all brakes on landing and found that 3 of the 4 masters have been leaking for so long hydraulic fluid is caked all over. Right main caliper has been leaking so long the piston was seized and not operating correctly. The steering dampener has never been rebuilt nor inspected and was bone dry with hydraulic fluid gummed up all below it. These were very basic things that should have been caught just by looking at the airplane.

Since then I have replaced the flap gauge, pedometer, rebuilt all masters, replaced brake lines, flushed system and rebuilt the steering dampener.
 
I had a pre-buy done by a renowned Beechcraft shop on my recent V35 purchase. I then took the airplane to a different shop to get the discrepancies squared away, since the original shop was too busy. There have been a number of items found by the current shop that were not found in the pre-buy, one being a safety of flight issue with the fuel system. I've heard others say to sock away 10 to 15% of your purchase for the first year of ownership and I'd say that is probably good advice. Caveat emptor.
 
azblackbird said:
I'm with Tom... everything mentioned should have easily been caught in a pre-buy inspection.
Click to expand...

See my post above. I had a pre-buy done which was extensive and cost me over $1,100 in labor. They missed things that I as a new plane owner spotted almost right away.
 
My pre-buy was done in October when I bought the plane. The plane was in annual then.

I wouldn’t think that pulling the wheels off and checking the wheel bearings would be on a pre-buy.
 
Jamie Kirk said:
See my post above. I had a pre-buy done which was extensive and cost me over $1,100 in labor. They missed things that I as a new plane owner spotted almost right away.
Click to expand...
Although I'm very mechanically inclined, if I'm going to buy a used plane, then I'm going to hire a second pair of eyes who is very familiar with the make a model of aircraft and who is adept at all the squawks associated with that make/model of aircraft and watch over them while they/us do a thorough inspection. Just on this board alone, I've see too many people who have hired somebody to do an inspection and later realize they didn't do that good of a job and it ends up costing them mucho $$$ in the end just because they took their word (and the owners) that the aircraft was good to go.
 
azblackbird said:
Although I'm very mechanically inclined, if I'm going to buy a used plane, then I'm going to hire a second pair of eyes who is very familiar with the make a model of aircraft and who is adept at all the squawks associated with that make/model of aircraft and watch over them while they/us do a thorough inspection. Just on this board alone, I've see too many people who have hired somebody to do an inspection and later realize they didn't do that good of a job and it ends up costing them mucho $$$ in the end just because they took their word (and the owners) that the aircraft was good to go.
Click to expand...
well...you pays your money....you take your chances. If you want something done right and right now...no one will do as well as you. ;)
 
k9medic said:
My pre-buy was done in October when I bought the plane. The plane was in annual then.

I wouldn’t think that pulling the wheels off and checking the wheel bearings would be on a pre-buy.
Click to expand...
That's the first thing I do. aircraft that have sat around have wheel bearing problems.
 
I'm torn between tearing an aircraft totally apart at each annual, or simply doing the airworthy stuff. It really should be up to the owner to do the servicing and trivial stuff.
the first annual by me will be a full blown check every thing annual. the next one I'm mostly looking for changes, and proper care since the last annual.
I believe that is why FAR 43-D is worded as it is, giving us IAs the discretion to inspect each aircraft as we see fit, as long as the minimum is met.
 
azblackbird said:
Although I'm very mechanically inclined, if I'm going to buy a used plane, then I'm going to hire a second pair of eyes who is very familiar with the make a model of aircraft and who is adept at all the squawks associated with that make/model of aircraft and watch over them while they/us do a thorough inspection. Just on this board alone, I've see too many people who have hired somebody to do an inspection and later realize they didn't do that good of a job and it ends up costing them mucho $$$ in the end just because they took their word (and the owners) that the aircraft was good to go.
Click to expand...

Plane I purchased was in Texas, I am in California, and the shop came highly recommended. I just don't think shops care. The shop knew it would never get more of my business and that it wouldn't get to do any of the repairs so why really look and care? Being a new plane owner I got the same vibe from a lot of Aviation Shops that remind me of shops I take my RV to. They just don't care. The service industry in the RV world is horrific and the customer appreciation and care is non existent. All back logged and have long wait list that can stretch for months just like aviation shops.

I am happy I found an IA that lets me do the work myself and shows me how to be thorough.
 
k9medic said:
My pre-buy was done in October when I bought the plane. The plane was in annual then.

I wouldn’t think that pulling the wheels off and checking the wheel bearings would be on a pre-buy.
Click to expand...
What is the real purpose of a pre-buy? airworthiness or value ?

we should probably start a new thread
 
Jamie Kirk said:
Plane I purchased was in Texas, I am in California, and the shop came highly recommended. I just don't think shops care. The shop knew it would never get more of my business and that it wouldn't get to do any of the repairs so why really look and care?
Click to expand...
That's why you need to be there and watch everything they do. I'm so anal that I stand by the door and watch the tire shop guys change my tires just so I know they properly torqued my lug nuts to spec.
 
azblackbird said:
That's why you need to be there and watch everything they do. I'm so anal that I stand by the door and watch the tire shop guys change my tires just so I know they properly torqued my lug nuts to spec.
Click to expand...

I’m a very hands on and mechanically inclined person and I was scared to touch the plane. Let the experts handle it.

Well then the plane got delivered and I got to take off the cowling and spend days just looking. These are very simple machines. I’ve done all work myself with an IA signing off and inspecting. When I ha questions he advised.

The flap pedometer in my plane is a big fault and issue. Previous owner paid big bucks to have one made with new bracket. Well that didn’t last 3 months. I took the entire bracket off, found a heavy duty pedometer and fabricated a new mount and it works great and is far sturdier than stock or the crap the other A&P did.
 
Jamie Kirk said:
I’m a very hands on and mechanically inclined person and I was scared to touch the plane. Let the experts handle it.

Well then the plane got delivered and I got to take off the cowling and spend days just looking. These are very simple machines. I’ve done all work myself with an IA signing off and inspecting. When I ha questions he advised.

The flap pedometer in my plane is a big fault and issue. Previous owner paid big bucks to have one made with new bracket. Well that didn’t last 3 months. I took the entire bracket off, found a heavy duty pedometer and fabricated a new mount and it works great and is far sturdier than stock or the crap the other A&P did.
Click to expand...
does your flap walk much....? :eek:
 
Tom-D said:
What is the real purpose of a pre-buy? airworthiness or value ?

we should probably start a new thread
Click to expand...

Probably a bit of both wouldn’t you say?

Compression checking a engine has a lot more to do with value than checking wheel bearings.

A low compression engine could still be airworthy but its costs would have to be considered in the total value.

Thankfully all of the A.D.’s for my plane have been complied with and an engine overhaul from 2004 saved me a lot of headaches too.
 
azblackbird said:
I'm with Tom... everything mentioned should have easily been caught in a pre-buy inspection.
Click to expand...

It seems like the "Peanut Gallery" of PoA wouldn't be satisfied until as @GeorgeC put it you disassemble the aircraft down to atoms for a pre-buy.

Stuff happens. Yeah it's a bummer, but I walk into ownership of a 50 year old plane expecting to have to go through every single system on the aircraft within the first 5 years. At least... that's now how I think about it now that I'm 10 months into ownership. I got a pre-buy done on my plane that I found to be very thorough, even so I've still dumped tens of thousands of dollars into my plane in the first months on things that broke shortly after purchasing the plane. Most people don't sell planes when they're in perfect shape, usually they've been neglected and its up to us as new owners to overcome that neglect and bring them to perfect shape. YMMV.
 
Last edited:
Mtns2Skies said:
Most people don't sell planes when they're in perfect shape, usually they've been neglected and its up to us as new owners to overcome that neglect and bring them to perfect shape.
Click to expand...
There are plenty of pristine older aircraft to be had if you're willing to pay the price. It sounds like in your instance you went the budget route knowing full well you'd have to put more money into it as time and funds would allow. Nothing wrong with that.
 
If the wheel bearings are going to be a make or break factor of buying the aircraft, you probably shouldn’t be buying an aircraft.

I’m still ****ed off that mine was missing the ashtray cover and nobody noticed.
 
Since this thread is about a half assed annual, I find it amusing that people are saying that a prebuy is no good, you need to do a full annual.
 
Meh, we fixed a bunch of small stuff as well as having to overhaul the CS prop hub the first year. What can you say, it's an airplane! Stuff breaks, fix it and fly on.
 
Add me to the "Nothing to see here, move along" crowd.
 
k9medic said:
Again, nothing that was really safety of flight or an airworthiness issue but simply laziness on the part of the previous Mechanic.
Click to expand...
Maybe laziness or maybe this "very well known" A&P informed the owners of the discrepancies and they decided not to fix due they were selling aircraft? The first question asked by 60%+ of the owners I dealt with after I presented a list of problems was "is it an airworthiness issue?" Some would fix everything some would not.

Keep in mind, an Annual is only an inspection. Any maintenance like filter changes, bearing lubrication, oil changes are separate items and not required to sign off an Annual. However, remember "airworthy" is a little bit objective but very subjective to the person determining it. You could take a brand new aircraft from the factory to 3 separate mechanics and they will find something they don't like if they look hard enough.

This is why I always recommend using the same mechanic that will maintain your aircraft to also look over the aircraft before you buy it. One of those pay now or pay later scenarios due to the variances in what's airworthy and what's not.
 
I guess it’s all in the verbiage.

His sign off says “inspected in accordance with piper 100hr/annual inspection procedures.”

I guess if it’s only an inspection it doesn’t have to be corrected, only inspected...


And no, not only 6 squawks. Just somethings thst should have been taken care of.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top