First annual with my new plane - what would the FAA say?

k9medic said:
His sign off says “inspected in accordance with piper 100hr/annual inspection procedures.”
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wrong verbiage, read FAR 43.11 (4) & (5)

“I certify that this aircraft has been inspected in accordance with (insert type) inspection and was determined to be in airworthy condition.”

or

“I certify that this aircraft has been inspected in accordance with (insert type) inspection and a list of discrepancies and unairworthy items dated (date) has been provided for the aircraft owner or operator.”
 
k9medic said:
That was the first line entry.

Last line entry reads as you wrote.
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when he uses that sign off the FAA can hold him responsible for each and every thing in the manual. and every thing in the inspection procedures doesn't apply to your aircraft.
 
Well we finished the annual late Thursday evening and now we are waiting on Monday morning for the avionics shop to work out the bugs in the GTX335 install.

Overall the plane came through with no major issues. We did find two rivets that were loose that near the front entry door, which was odd to me. Some corrosion that we knew about was taken care of, compression test was great and we fabricated some new internal brake lines since they have been on since new (1967.)

Now I also wait for the bill...
 
k9medic said:
The former A&P is a very well known person which is even more frustrating.
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I had a prebuy done once on a T-6 that was being ‘maintained’ by a very well known/respected warbird restorer and it was a complete pencil whipped basket case.

Sadly, this kind of stuff is out there.
 
Jamie Kirk said:
Plane I purchased was in Texas, I am in California, and the shop came highly recommended.
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The plane I bought was in Texas, and I am in California. I first had several long conversations with the plane’s owner and with the mechanic who had been maintaining it. However, I still flew to Texas, and I paid to have a California mechanic fly there also to do the prebuy. I crawled all over the plane with my CA mechanic during the prebuy. No way am I going to have a prebuy done by someone I’ve never met without me being there. A thousand dollars of airline tickets for peace of mind is well worth it when compared to the 10’s of thousands of dollars for the plane purchase.

This was despite the fact that the shop maintaining the plane has an outstandingly good national reputation for Bellancas. My guy also has a similar reputation with Bellancas, but he had the advantage of never having seen that particular aircraft before.


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I've bought several aircraft sight unseen, simply because I knew the parts were more valuable than the asking price.
the Fairchild was one of them.
 
Jamie Kirk said:
Less than 60 days of owning it I have had to put over $6,000 in it. Flap gauge didn't work. Flap pedometer was bad. Lost all brakes on landing and found that 3 of the 4 masters have been leaking for so long hydraulic fluid is caked all over. Right main caliper has been leaking so long the piston was seized and not operating correctly. The steering dampener has never been rebuilt nor inspected and was bone dry with hydraulic fluid gummed up all below it. These were very basic things that should have been caught just by looking at the airplane.
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Like during a preflight? o_O
 
Bell206 said:
Keep in mind, an Annual is only an inspection. Any maintenance like filter changes, bearing lubrication, oil changes are separate items and not required to sign off an Annual.
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This is why I set a fixed price for an annual inspection. and an hourly rate for repairs.
 
Grum.Man said:
Is this your first airplane? These are items that I have pretty much come to expect out of most annuals I have seen...
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Mtns2Skies said:
...Stuff happens. Yeah it's a bummer, but I walk into ownership of a 50 year old plane expecting to have to go through every single system on the aircraft within the first 5 years. At least... that's now how I think about it now that I'm 10 months into ownership. I got a pre-buy done on my plane that I found to be very thorough, even so I've still dumped tens of thousands of dollars into my plane in the first months on things that broke shortly after purchasing the plane. Most people don't sell planes when they're in perfect shape, usually they've been neglected and its up to us as new owners to overcome that neglect and bring them to perfect shape. YMMV.
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This. ^^^^

The shops are under pressure from most owners to keep the costs down, don't do or defer stuff that isn't necessary. It's a delicate balance between keeping the airplane safe, the owner happy and coming back, or losing the business. I think maintaining piston GA airplanes is a challenging business these days, and I can see why a lot of mechanics have moved upscale to the more expensive, higher margin turboprops and jets, and even helicopters around my airport.


k9medic said:
...While doing the annual, there have been several things that we have identified that make it VERY evident that the previous annuals were most likely nothing more than a swipe of the pen in the logbook. While not monumental, it does show you the quality of work that was performed. The former A&P is a very well known person which is even more frustrating.

In the 9 months and 16 flight hours (12 of which were by me since October) since the last annual we have found some of the following "discrepancies:"

1. Wheel bearing grease on all three wheels are so gritty and nasty that it took a plastic paint scraper to get the old grease out of the wheel. The bearings had to soak in solvent to before we were able to start cleaning.

2. Vacuum pump air filter had not been changed in 5 years. This according to the filter is an annual or 500 hour item, whichever is first.

3. Brake bolts rusted and corroded in the caliper.

4. ELT battery connections corroded in the case.

5. Outboard inspection plates did not show any indication of ever being opened since the plane was repainted in 2013.

6. Old antenna wires terminated and lying on control cables.

I know it take a while to get things in order on a new to you plane but this is just crazy!
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Nothing on this list that is all that unusual these days. It's expensive to own and operate a plane - the cost has inflated much faster than most people's incomes in the past 30 years. If the plane is not flying many hours in a year things like filters and such get left for "next year". Changes to radios and avionics get done without spending the time/labor to pull out the old wiring. If a decades old plane is being maintained meticulously its usually because the owner is flying it, and its not for sale. As others have posted, if you're going to buy an older airplane best to plan for some $ to bring each system up to your standards in the first couple of years of ownership.

I note your item 5. So how was your pre-purchase inspection done on the plane without removing the inspection plates?

Jamie Kirk said:
Bought a plane that was said to be meticulously maintained and the owner spent big money on avionics and his log books were very detailed. Had a prebuy done and it came back clean with the only squak being the fuel amount is not on the wings.

Less than 60 days of owning it I have had to put over $6,000 in it. Flap gauge didn't work. Flap pedometer was bad. Lost all brakes on landing and found that 3 of the 4 masters have been leaking for so long hydraulic fluid is caked all over. Right main caliper has been leaking so long the piston was seized and not operating correctly. The steering dampener has never been rebuilt nor inspected and was bone dry with hydraulic fluid gummed up all below it. These were very basic things that should have been caught just by looking at the airplane.

Since then I have replaced the flap gauge, pedometer, rebuilt all masters, replaced brake lines, flushed system and rebuilt the steering dampener.
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That doesn't sound like much of a pre-purchase inspection. Once again people don't define what they want or expect. Did you get a comprehensive written report on the condition of each system in the airplane, including function testing of all the avionics and instruments? Confirmation that all applicable ADs had been independently researched and verified as complied with? Those are just two things I expect from a proper pre-purchase inspection. When I bought my Aztec I also had them do a 45 minute flight test and check everything including the autopilot worked properly.

As has been posted elsewhere, a pre-purchase inspection and an annual are not the same thing. Not even close.
 
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I've adopted a new policy, I won't inspect your aircraft unless you have "AD log" maintenance record system. Trying to figure out who did what 40 years ago, is simply too much trouble. doing a new AD search on an older aircraft requires me more than a days work, to do an accurate search, gleaning the old logs for sign offs, and to determine if there are any uncomplied with ADs.
So if I do take you as a new customer you must buy the ADlog system,(if ya don't have it) and we'll start from scratch, and do it right from from day 1 once. then simply stay abreast of it.
much easier for me, and much better for you.
 
There are occasions when a pre-buy is totally not needed.
When any aircraft that is being bought has an item installed that is worth more than the asking price.
When you know you are buying a project.
When the aircraft is a rare bird, that you know you'll never see another one for sale.
but when you are buying a run of the mill GA aircraft an annual is a place to start. but add a few things, Has it ever had a major repair, Who did it ? Are you you buying it from the last registered owner or do you have proper paper proving the registration can be transferred to you.
Are the fancy new avionics legal?
mostly it is a buyer choice how far a pre-buy should go. but the savvy buyer should know at least these things.
 
Jamie Kirk said:
Except I didn’t preflight the plane before it flew to CA from Texas. But hey, good response.
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But you had it for 60 days before figuring this stuff out?

Who did you pay to deliver the plane to you?

I used to do aircraft deliveries and saw the results of many shoddy prebuys or lack of pre buy and would at least give the new owner a list of crap that he might want to address or keep an eye on.
 
Tom-D said:
There are occasions when a pre-buy is totally not needed.
When any aircraft that is being bought has an item installed that is worth more than the asking price.
When you know you are buying a project.
When the aircraft is a rare bird, that you know you'll never see another one for sale.
but when you are buying a run of the mill GA aircraft an annual is a place to start. but add a few things, Has it ever had a major repair, Who did it ? Are you you buying it from the last registered owner or do you have proper paper proving the registration can be transferred to you.
Are the fancy new avionics legal?
mostly it is a buyer choice how far a pre-buy should go. but the savvy buyer should know at least these things.
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True.

When I bought my very rare Waco it had just finished a full restoration/rebuild.

I (non A&P) essentially did a cursory preflight. It was very clear just by glancing at it that no expense had been spared.

It has been the most reliable/problem free airplane I have bought.

But, unfortunately, that is the exception, not the norm.
 
Fearless Tower said:
But you had it for 60 days before figuring this stuff out?

Who did you pay to deliver the plane to you?

I used to do aircraft deliveries and saw the results of many shoddy prebuys or lack of pre buy and would at least give the new owner a list of crap that he might want to address or keep an eye on.
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I said less than 60 days of owning it. Not that after I had it and flown it for 60 days.

Previous owner delivered it.
 
Jamie Kirk said:
I said less than 60 days of owning it. Not that after I had it and flown it for 60 days.

Previous owner delivered it.
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Lesson hopefully learned. Buyer beware. Airplane sellers are only one step above boat and horse traders.
 
Welcome to the world of pencil-whipped annuals. Probably happens more often than you think when someone needs to sell a plane. Find a trustworthy mechanic, and fix it up to your standards. Every plane I've owned has taken 2-3 annuals to flush out all the deferred or substandard maintenance. And that's if you find a really good mechanic who will be thorough without nickel and diming you to death. The really good ones are sensitive to owner cost while maintaining high standard especially where it matters. I've been lucky.
 
A inspection is just that. Maintenance is not part of a inspection. If you get a cheap annual where the IA throws the book at you from his car as he drives past this is what you get. Maybe that's why this guy is so popular. And yes, I would consider a wire interfering or even touching a flight control cable a airworthiness concern. Is that filter a hard change at annual or just a inspection?
If theses are all the problems you found consider yourself lucky, plenty of people have bought used airplanes to discover that the engine is garbage.
Did anyone actually ever look at this airplane before buying it, the inspection plates aren't exactly hard to see.
 
Not sure you had a thorough pre buy,also you can’t totally blame the mechanic on the previous annual ,since he was probably doing what the owner requested.
 
Even with an annual for a pre-buy, these planes are old machines...Expect things to break for a while until you've addressed them all, then expect more stuff to break...
 
I had a mechanic once who said the worst thing you can do to an airplane is let it sit. The second worst thing you can do to an airplane is fly it.

The point is these machines run at the edge of the design envelope a fair amount of time. Therefore stuff breaks, and owners not flying do not want to lay the price to fix it.

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frfly172 said:
Not sure you had a thorough pre buy,also you can’t totally blame the mechanic on the previous annual ,since he was probably doing what the owner requested.
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I know it was a thorough prebuy. I was there and participated in it.

I would not expect a mechanic on a prebuy to jack up an airplane, pull the wheels and check the wheel bearings to see if they had been repacked recently.

The 100 hour inspection checklist calls for the wheel bearings to be repacked. How can the I/A sign off that the plane had been inspected IAW the Piper 100hr/Annual inspection procedure if he did not do this???
 
k9medic said:
The 100 hour inspection checklist calls for the wheel bearings to be repacked. How can the I/A sign off that the plane had been inspected IAW the Piper 100hr/Annual inspection procedure if he did not do this???
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Depends on the integrity of the A/P and/or the agreement between the owner and A/P. I grew up in a state that had mandatory annual vehicle inspections. There were shops in town that did inspections by the book, and others that were known as "lick em' and stick em'", IE, hand the guy the cash, he slaps the sticker on the windshield no questions asked.
 
When I bought my doggy Cherokee, I examined the logs thoroughly. Compared that to what I could see on the airplane without major surgery.
Satisfied with the price, and condition, I flew it home. Second flight out, the one and only radio crapped out. It was then that I took it completely apart and inspected, every square inch, cleaning, replacing, and painting, as needed. Removed about 6 or 7 pounds of wiring that went nowhere, a trim servo that was connected to nothing, replaced radios, new paintjob, brake hoses, re-shim torque links, 2 new seat rails, etc. Plus myriad other non-airworthy items. Took me about 3 months or so. But I now have a decent little airplane, that is safe to take me anywhere I want to go. I've owned it for going on 4 years now, and I try to stay on top of things. IOW, at first indication of an issue, it gets sussed, and repaired forthwith. It aint cheap, but a helluva lot cheaper than letting something small turn into something major. ;)
 
bluerooster said:
It was then that I took it completely apart and inspected, every square inch, cleaning, replacing, and painting, as needed. Removed about 6 or 7 pounds of wiring that went nowhere, a trim servo that was connected to nothing, replaced radios, new paintjob, brake hoses, re-shim torque links, 2 new seat rails, etc. Plus myriad other non-airworthy items.
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Personally, I would have said "It was then that the hangar fairies..." :) (Just kidding. Really.)

Log Book
 
SkyDog58 said:
Unfortunately, these sort of findings by new owners or owners who change shops are becoming more and more frequent. It also appears to be more prevalent with the independent IA than with ones who work in a shop with others.

I do not know if this is the case with the IA who previously did the annuals or not but one reason some IAs are well known and popular is that they do real quick and cheap annuals. There is a price to pay for that by someone down the road. Hopefully it won’t be the ultimate price but that is always a concern.

And do not think for a minute that your plane is the exception to the rule and that this IA has been doing excellent work on the other aircraft he works on. Your findings are probably very typical of his work. That thought alone should concern you and prompt you to action.

It has been my experience that a customer complaint will not likely get him to change his ways. But if he works in a shop with a boss, I’d start there. That may or may not achieve change. The sad thing is that if you don’t use the shop, you will never see the results of any change.

If he is an independent, I’d start with the FSDO once they open again sometime in the coming weeks or months. At the very least an additional visit or two from them outside of their normal surveillance of the IA might get some results.

And by the way, the FSDO typically does not inspect the independent IA working out of a small hangar or his truck as much as they’d like to and possibly need to. With a small workforce and a high workload, the FSDO work is prioritized towards the certificated shops and commercial operators. That’s why many independents do crappy work. They know they can get away with it.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s not an absolute with independents as there are many good ones but the trend is more predominant with them than with shops with multiple mechanics and inspectors.

So though it might be an unpopular opinion on here, my thoughts are to notify the FAA in cases such as this where it appears the IA missed and/or just skipped a bunch of things and did so over a period of years. This is far different than missing one item on one inspection. That would be where a one on one talk with the IA would be more appropriate. Yours is not such a case. Make the call.
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Yeah, go tell the FSDO that your airplane had dirty grease in the wheels and you want them to come down on the IA who did the last inspection. Oh, he missed things over a number of years. How could you possibly know when he missed something? Ridiculous. Just fix what you find and go on. The FSDO is not going to do a damn thing and you're going to look like a fool. It's not the IA's responsibility to maintain your aircraft. You get what you pay for. If the owner said just do the inspection only, then all the periodic maintenance that should be done is on the owner and the IA just has to certify that the airplane meets the minimum airworthiness standard at the time he signs it off. Instead of going after the IA, why didn't you have a prebuy/annual done by your mechanic to see if the aircraft met your expectations? The annual is a snapshot in time--good luck proving that anything found wrong with an aircraft was that way at the time of the annual unless you and the Safety Inspector from the FSDO found airworthiness discrepancies on the day the annual got signed off. As for something like an air filter--show me where the airworthiness requirement is for changing out an air filter based on what's written on the box? You want filters changed--pay the mechanic to change out your filters.
 
Just to point out, wheel bearing are on the minimum list in FAR 43-D, but you are correct in that the FAA will do nothing. There is no proof who did what in the past. So it becomes a pi$$ing contest all too quickly. Before the FAA can do anything they must have solid proof of a violation, there is none here.
 
eman1200 said:
Did you miss the part where he said new plane, TWO partners, NINE months..........16 hours of flying? That’s a shame.
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I agree, but that’s how a lot of airplanes are flown (or not).
 
I feel like there was a point somewhere around the 1950s where automobile quality continued improving, and aircraft quality stagnated. Now that we're 2-3 human generations past that, everyone expects their plane to be like their Honda Accord when it's more like a 1949 Hudson that has spent time in Florida and was maintained by a three-fingered monkey with a venereal complaint.

I'd say we should make ownership of an italian car a prerequisite to owning an aircraft, but I understand even the Italians can be counted on to limp across the 100,000 mile mark without much fuss nowadays. I don't know any other product in modern life which has such constant maintenance demands and near-immediate degradation from disuse. A wooden sailboat maybe? Even then, the stakes are low, as nobody sits in their neglected wooden sailboat 1-2 miles up in the sky, relying it to stay together.
 
My first annual was 15,000. On a 35,000 plane.

I feel no sympathy. Only rage.

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Checkout_my_Six said:
if not an Italian car....maybe a British or German one?
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I can't speak for the Axis powers, but I had a 1971 TR-6 as a daily driver in the mid 80's. It never let me down, but it needed to be watched carefully so problems could be identified and rectified before they became stranded on the side of the road type problems. Airplanes are about the same - hammer reliable for the most part, but you need to keep your eyes open for signs and take action when you see something amiss.
 
k9medic said:
I know it was a thorough prebuy. I was there and participated in it.

I would not expect a mechanic on a prebuy to jack up an airplane, pull the wheels and check the wheel bearings to see if they had been repacked recently.

The 100 hour inspection checklist calls for the wheel bearings to be repacked. How can the I/A sign off that the plane had been inspected IAW the Piper 100hr/Annual inspection procedure if he did not do this???
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You pay extra for the maintenance, the 100 hour says it should be done not that the inspector has to do it,
 
I witnessed a lot of "1st" annuals over the years, assisted in my own as well.
Mine was on a '56 172 we bought for $5000 and had to prop start it to get it to it's new home. There was no prebuy, and thankfully we expected to find more issues than we did.

A certain 421B that a car dealer brought to us after he did his own prebuy comes to mind. He failed to realize the aircraft had a gear up landing, and the repairs were atrocious. He was contentious before the purchase, citing how our staff won't see anything more than he will, when approached to allow us to inspect it. Once they had it opened up and on jacks, they stopped until the guy came out to see for himself what he bought. That was a nightmare that guy did not soon forget.

I would never purchase an aircraft at market value with out a thorough prebuy/annual that I was able to be around while in progress.
I would also alternate between two or three trusted mechanics for the subsequent maintenance and inspections for the sole reason of having fresh eyes on things.

In the CRS world there are typically "QC" checks that require the second set of eyes, as well as the chief inspectors final inspection. This goes a ways toward the fresh eyes concept.
 
I give the owner a list of discrepancies that SHOULD be corrected. If the following year those discrepancies are not corrected, the owner can find some one else to do their annual.

I don't need the frustration of telling owners how to care for their aircraft.
 
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