First Annual - problem with IA brewing...

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1RTK1 said:
It seems a lot of people are taking their planes to places that they have no experience with or knowledge of then reporting back here with horror stories. That was the just of my post if I were to take my plane to an unknown shop.
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My observation has been that more often than not the owners don’t understand what they’re asking the mechanic to do, nor what an annual inspection really is, then the problems start. This is evidenced by the repeated threads we see on this board and elsewhere where the same things get discussed and the mechanics come in and set the record straight, at least for those who read and understand what is written.

My advice to anyone thinking about owning an airplane would be to make friends with a mechanic or two and hang around and listen to them. Most of them I know have very similar stories and rants about aircraft and their owners. Listening to the mechanics will help you not be “that guy” when it comes to maintenance problems and accusations.
 
arnoha said:
This feels like a thread that could reasonably be locked for being, whether intentional or not, just a trolling us. The OP provided nothing more than an emotional vent. It was probably genuine emotion. But the result produced nothing for us to work with.
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You are right! My apologies for the delay. I was not expecting such a response. Details have been added. Thank you!
 
mondtster said:
My observation has been that more often than not the owners don’t understand what they’re asking the mechanic to do, nor what an annual inspection really is, then the problems start. This is evidenced by the repeated threads we see on this board and elsewhere where the same things get discussed and the mechanics come in and set the record straight, at least for those who read and understand what is written.

My advice to anyone thinking about owning an airplane would be to make friends with a mechanic or two and hang around and listen to them. Most of them I know have very similar stories and rants about aircraft and their owners. Listening to the mechanics will help you not be “that guy” when it comes to maintenance problems and accusations.
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Sorry for coming off like “that guy”. I added details. Been traveling this week and my jaw dropped when I saw all these responses.
 
Wow, this shop/guy is out of control. I would take my plane back and tell them my lawyer will be in touch to settle the bill.
They don't have your log books do they.
 
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mondtster said:
That wasn't directed at you, just a generalization. :)
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All good. Hopefully the explaination helps. The issue isn’t about debating engine mount tolerances or static wick length. It’s crazy.
 
Keith Diamond said:
All good. Hopefully the explaination helps. The issue isn’t about debating engine mount tolerances or static wick length. It’s crazy.
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The shop may not really have a problem with you as much as a beef with the other shop that you had do the radio work and you're now caught in the middle. As has been alluded to in this thread, different mechanics seem to have different opinions on airworthiness and how to properly install things. If I were in your shoes I'd get your plane back and pay for the work performed then hire another mechanic to come in and get things finished up.
 
While I am aware there might be a beef with losing business, they need to at least be correct in their assessment. THIS guy doesn’t dictate how an Aspen is installed, Aspen does via the installation manual.
 
Keith Diamond said:
I will try to bullet down some answers and details to prior posts.
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I'm a little slow. Several questions.
You decided to change your panel but this local shop was too expensive and you went to another shop?
Regardless, when annual time came around you took it to this same local shop for the annual?
But when they started the annual this local shop started critiquing the panel up grade more than performing an annual in your opinion?
Did you have a written work scope prior to the start of work?
What annual checklist did you request the IA to use?
Keith Diamond said:
Items 5 and 6 is why I think this needs to be reported to the FSDO.
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Nothing here to report on. They haven't broken any rules that I can see.
Keith Diamond said:
Not sure what else I can do...
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It's your plane. You can have them stop, reassemble the aircraft, and make the necessary entries.
Keith Diamond said:
THIS guy doesn’t dictate how an Aspen is installed, Aspen does via the installation manual.
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No. The previous shop did. But regardless of motive he can declare there is an issue with the panel install since he is performing the annual.

I'm not picking sides here. But with only one side of this issue posted, not everything seems to be covered.
 
Keith Diamond said:
Wow. I wrote the whole story and then thought- nah these guys don’t want all this drama. I was wrong! Very impressive response.

So- I don’t have the list in hand right now but went to the shop the 2nd day he was working on it. I will try to bullet down some answers and details to prior posts.
  1. First annual with my first plane
  2. Prior mechanic was top notch and fully maintained the plane very well for an owner with deep pockets, fixing every item with no deferrals. I bought the plane while in annual and thought the third party pre-buy/annual shop did a thorough job as well.
  3. In December 2018 I had the panel redone. New cut panel, IFD-550, aspen efd, EI cGr-p and CGr-c, adsb in and out. Local shop was expensive and I tried hard but couldn’t make it work at their cost. Flew the plane to Saint Aviation at Marion FL and got a better panel at lower cost. I want to think the local shop wouldn’t be ****y about losing the business, but here we are.
  4. I stop by and the IA is focused WAY too much on the install and not the rest of the plane. I am fine if a thorough and competent mechanic finds items that keep me and my family safe- I get it, and I know planes are stoopid expensive. That said, he spends the first two days just going over the install. Nothing yet about what the plane needs to stay fit. I cringe, loudly.
  5. A few examples of dead wrong items he brings up:
    1. EFD requires a separate master breaker switch. NO is does not. Install manual says “optional”. Strike 1
    2. CGR requires the red and yellow warning lights. NO it does not. Install says only if 8” outside pilots center of vision. Strike 2
    3. Aspen RSM must go in the the back of the plane. NO it does not. Install says alternate location is above and forward of the pilot, given the pilots head is more than 12” away. Strike 3
    4. Avidyne FAA 337 must be filled out by a “Repair Station” which is irrelevant to the FAA. BUT this guy starts quizzing me on where I bought the equipment and was the shop authorized... WHAT?
  6. IA contacts Avidyne without my knowing, telling them I have installed a STOLEN unit and sending some pictures of the unit. Avidyne laughs, and sends the email to Saint Aviaiton, who then calls me and asks “what’s up”. Note that I paid Saint, and Avidyne drop shipped the unit to me directly prior to flying to Florida. Fencing is impossible here.
We haven’t even touched any actual airworthy items and before this if he said you gotta replace XYZ I would say, you bet, I’m on it- at whatever cost to keep my wife and kids safe. But this is NUTS.

Items 5 and 6 is why I think this needs to be reported to the FSDO.

I would obviously like to get my plane from them and go elsewhere, but I have to assume I now owe for an “annual” and will be out that at least. Not sure what else I can do...

Thanks
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My $0.02...

Based on everything you typed here being 100% factual, if it were me I would tell them to stop working immediately, put my plane back together and give me the bill. I would then get a ferry permit from the FAA (easy) and fly it to whatever shop you can find that is highly recommended/fair. Have your plane annualed, pay for 1 1/2-2 annuals and chock it up as a lesson learned. I'd probably tell every aircraft owner I could reach about this and recommend they don't use this shop.
 
So is it getting annualed at the local shop that you were going to have the radio install done, but they were priced high?


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tom28z said:
So do we know what the problems were or are we being trolled?
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Those weren't the only two possibilities, as has now been made very clear.
 
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tom28z said:
So is it getting annualed at the local shop that you were going to have the radio install done, but they were priced high?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Correct. I had no issue with them just couldn’t afford their price.
 
Bell206 said:
I'm a little slow. Several questions.
You decided to change your panel but this local shop was too expensive and you went to another shop?
Regardless, when annual time came around you took it to this same local shop for the annual?
But when they started the annual this local shop started critiquing the panel up grade more than performing an annual in your opinion?
Did you have a written work scope prior to the start of work?
What annual checklist did you request the IA to use?

Nothing here to report on. They haven't broken any rules that I can see.

It's your plane. You can have them stop, reassemble the aircraft, and make the necessary entries.

No. The previous shop did. But regardless of motive he can declare there is an issue with the panel install since he is performing the annual.

I'm not picking sides here. But with only one side of this issue posted, not everything seems to be covered.
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This is a very grounded and reasonable response and appreciated. Reporting as a thought was intended to flag someone for unethical gouging considering they are 100% incorrect in what is “required”. The install manuals dictate what is required. Yes, the shop that did the radio work can follow or not follow. They followed.

Your question above- correct. Local shop for a panel gut and redo was too high. Going to Florida saved me 2500+ in sales tax alone, plus mfr package deals and rebates the cost delta was well into 5 figures.

That said- yes I had no other issue with the local shop and their annual cost was on par. They are across the taxiway and I hoped to have a good local shop that would be familiar with the plane ongoing re: logs, ad’s, etc...

Enter nightmare.
 
Keith Diamond said:
Going to Florida saved me 2500+ in sales tax alone
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Where are you based???

The difference between FL sales tax and the state with the highest sales tax (CA) is only 2.25%. So your panel upgrade would had to have been about $110,000. So if you're in CA, why not go to OR where there's no sales tax?
 
donjohnston said:
Where are you based???

The difference between FL sales tax and the state with the highest sales tax (CA) is only 2.25%. So your panel upgrade would had to have been about $110,000. So if you're in CA, why not go to OR where there's no sales tax?
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Some states have 0% sales tax on aviation stuff. Florida may be one of them. I don't know all the details. But, I bought my MVP50 in Florida because I didn't pay have to pay sales tax on it.
 
donjohnston said:
Where are you based???

The difference between FL sales tax and the state with the highest sales tax (CA) is only 2.25%. So your panel upgrade would had to have been about $110,000. So if you're in CA, why not go to OR where there's no sales tax?
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Florida no sales tax for a plane over 2000 pounds. So- no sales tax.
 
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Keith Diamond said:
Reporting as a thought was intended to flag someone for unethical gouging
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Unfortunately this is not a function of the FSDO.
Keith Diamond said:
they are 100% incorrect in what is “required”. The install manuals dictate what is required.
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It depends. The one item you are forgetting is that any and all previous worked performed comes under new scrutiny at each annual because the IA must accept all that work to his standards in order to sign off the annual. Even per your list you mention these items where "options" or "alternates" so the installing shop made their own determination which was correct way. However, if in his opinion it needs a CB that was "optional" then he is correct also. Or have him list it has a disc and sign the annual off.

This happens. No different than one mechanic thinks something is airworthy and another one doesn't. For example, I believe 337s are over used for various reasons. Several times I had an IA kick out an alteration I signed off because he thought it required a 337 and wouldn't sign the annual. Most were resolved amicably. Some went to the FSDO level. So it depends.

Now if this IA simply is doing it because he lost the panel work then that is not correct either. But that is not the job of the feds to correct unless he violates a FAR in doing so.
 
Bell206 said:
Unfortunately this is not a function of the FSDO.

It depends. The one item you are forgetting is that any and all previous worked performed comes under new scrutiny at each annual because the IA must accept all that work to his standards in order to sign off the annual. Even per your list you mention these items where "options" or "alternates" so the installing shop made their own determination which was correct way. However, if in his opinion it needs a CB that was "optional" then he is correct also. Or have him list it has a disc and sign the annual off.

This happens. No different than one mechanic thinks something is airworthy and another one doesn't. For example, I believe 337s are over used for various reasons. Several times I had an IA kick out an alteration I signed off because he thought it required a 337 and wouldn't sign the annual. Most were resolved amicably. Some went to the FSDO level. So it depends.

Now if this IA simply is doing it because he lost the panel work then that is not correct either. But that is not the job of the feds to correct unless he violates a FAR in doing so.
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This is the answer I was looking for. Thank you!
 
Apologies I had the number wrong its OVER 2000 pounds. But otherwise valid - saved 2.5 AMU's on that alone.
 
Keith Diamond said:
Apologies I had the number wrong its OVER 2000 pounds. But otherwise valid - saved 2.5 AMU's on that alone.
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I still don’t know what you are referring to.
 
Does anyone have info on exactly when an 8130 is required? In regards to new avionics install. Avidyne says they don't send them unless requested since they aren't required, but IA is saying they are. Looking for some backup verbiage. Thanks!
 
You need to get your airplane out of that shop yesterday. You're absolutely, 100% asking for nothing but trouble and a HUGE bill at the end if you don't. Get the plane out first, fight over the bill second.
 
Keith Diamond said:
Apologies I had the number wrong its OVER 2000 pounds. But otherwise valid - saved 2.5 AMU's on that alone.
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Think what's confusing folks is what item you didn't pay tax on? Is it the instruments, labor on the install, all of the above? Some people might be thinking the sales tax on the purchase of the airplane itself. Count me as currently confused as well.
 
Keith Diamond said:
Does anyone have info on exactly when an 8130 is required?
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In most cases an 8130-3 is not required or mandatory or can not be issued in domestic operations. However, there are always exceptions. A new domestic avionics component in a N reg GA aircraft, no. There are specific requirements to issue an 8130-3. This has been an ongoing issue since the 8130-3 was unveiled.

Perhaps have the IA select the requirement from the following:

FAA Order on issuing 8130s
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/FAA_Order_8130.21H.pdf

FAQs 8130-3
https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert/international/export_aw_approval/media/8130-3QA.pdf

Article on 8130 requirements: Pgs 103, 111, 112, 113.
https://www.aviationsuppliers.org/ASA/files/ccLibraryFiles/Filename/000000000236/7-10.pdf

8130 policy example from McFarlane (they charge extra for certain 8130s):
https://www.mcfarlaneaviation.com/media/documents/faa-8130.pdf
 
Hang 4 said:
Think what's confusing folks is what item you didn't pay tax on? Is it the instruments, labor on the install, all of the above? Some people might be thinking the sales tax on the purchase of the airplane itself. Count me as currently confused as well.
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I see. I assumed the context would have kept the scope to the avionics install. But I agree without that- the way it was worded could be more clear. I paid no sales tax on my new panel done in Florida.
 
If you have not already - Be sure you clarify in writing with the IA that he is not authorized to make repairs. Otherwise, he may assume that all these discrepancies that he finds need to be fixed and you'll be looking at a 20k annual bill.
 
Just checked with my local IA. He confirmed that there is no sales tax on parts for aircraft over 2,000lbs.

Learn something new every day.
 
Tom-D said:
those things are not cosmetic.
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Tom-D said:
A couple points.
Agreed !
to start with avionics are not airworthiness items. we are allowed to go nordo. Secondly TSO is not required in part 91.

If the operator is operating in part 135 the IA may have a point, (other wise) Sign it off anyway you like, my A&P will fix it. "scribble scribble" good to go.
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Except inoperative equipment makes the plane without an MEL unairwothy under Part 91 until an AP deactivates or removes and makes the appropriate logbook entry.
 
donjohnston said:
Just checked with my local IA. He confirmed that there is no sales tax on parts for aircraft over 2,000lbs.
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That could pay for a bunch of fuel to fly to Florida for an install. Reminds me of growing up in Massachusetts and having the New Hampshire liquor stores on the highway just before the border. Nothing but Mass and CT plates on the cars in the parking lot
 
An annual inspection is an INSPECTION of the airplane. AD research is usually included, but certainly not research to see if the owner has installed stolen equipment.

Work stoppage and an itemized bill is required at this point. Each item that is not part of an inspection needs to be challenged, with an understanding that the shop exceeded their authority. I don't care what extra stuff he wanted to do, if it isn't related to the inspection, it's their gratis work. I'm not paying you for things you do independently and outside of the work contract.

Of course, this comes back to the contract in the first place. The shop should be authorized to perform an annual inspection and nothing more.
 
Clip4 said:
Except inoperative equipment makes the plane without an MEL unairwothy under Part 91 until an AP deactivates or removes and makes the appropriate logbook entry.
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Not really. An A&P isn't required to deactivate inoperative equipment unless that deactivation requires "maintenance". Turn it off and placard it. DONE. No logbook entry required.
 
bradg33 said:
You need to get your airplane out of that shop yesterday. You're absolutely, 100% asking for nothing but trouble and a HUGE bill at the end if you don't. Get the plane out first, fight over the bill second.
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This and only this
 
pburger said:
Not really. An A&P isn't required to deactivate inoperative equipment unless that deactivation requires "maintenance". Turn it off and placard it. DONE. No logbook entry required.
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Maintenance means inspection, overhaul, repair, preservation, and the replacement of parts, but excludes preventive maintenance.

91.213 (d) (3) The inoperative instruments and equipment are—

(i) Removed from the aircraft, the cockpit control placarded, and the maintenance recorded in accordance with §43.9 of this chapter; or

(ii) Deactivated and placarded “Inoperative.” If deactivation of the inoperative instrument or equipment involves maintenance, it must be accomplished and recorded in accordance with part 43 of this chapter; and

How does an IA performing an annual inspection deactivate or remove inoperative equipment without having inspected for proper operation.
 
I get the feeling there is more to this story.
 
I agree with the others that say get your plane away from this guy and take it elsewhere. Although I fear this won’t be the end of it for you. If the guy will call the manufacturer claiming you’ve got stolen equipment, I wouldn’t put it past him to call the FSDO on you the first time he sees you flying it after someone else signs off the annual.
 
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