First Annual - problem with IA brewing...

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Keith Diamond

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hey all-
Doing my first annual with my 79 pa-32-300. Is there a process by which to report an IA that is dead wrong in some of his discrepancy list and is trying to run up costs? Any experienced words of wisdom? Talk to the shop owner?
 
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Pick up the airplane and find a good honest mechanic! We are lucky here, our mechanics are good as gold. There are lots of money hungry guys out there that will charge the living crap out of you.
 
What kind of discrepancies are you talking about? Have you discussed them with the IA?
 
Keith Diamond said:
hey all-
Doing my first annual with my 79 pa-32-300. Is there a process by which to report an IA that is dead wrong in some of his discrepancy list and is trying to run up costs? Any experienced words of wisdom? Talk to the shop owner?
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How much experience do you have as an owner? Is this your first ever annual? Or just the first one with this plane?

I can see how a persons first annual coinciding with their first annual on a specific airplane could seem like an IA is running up the costs”. But first annuals on an airplane can be brutal. Lots of owners defer any maintenance possible. I recently sold a plane for an owner who had been getting pencil whipped annuals for 10 years. I strongly discouraged the buyer about flying the plane home even though it was still in annual.
 
Keith Diamond said:
hey all-
Doing my first annual with my 79 pa-32-300. Is there a process by which to report an IA that is dead wrong in some of his discrepancy list and is trying to run up costs? Any experienced words of wisdom? Talk to the shop owner?
Click to expand...

How do you handle a getting a second opinion when your doc is dead wrong?

How can you prove the IA is dead wrong?

Are these airworthiness issues or are they deferred mx items?

Are you required to have him complete the work to regain possession of your aircraft?

Unscrupulous business practices and airworthiness issues are two different beasts.
 
Have the dude sign off what he inspected with discrepancies....then take the list to another A&P to return to service. He can tell you if those items are reasonable. Next year find another IA...
 
Typical. An owner posts about his first annual, claims the IA is screwing him without any examples, and there is already a few who want to hang the IA without a trial. And people wonder why mechanics are suspicious of most pilots/owners.

To OP: post a scanned copy of the IA's discrepancy list so that we may give you the wisdom you so desperately request.
 
Keith Diamond said:
hey all-
Doing my first annual with my 79 pa-32-300. Is there a process by which to report an IA that is dead wrong in some of his discrepancy list and is trying to run up costs? Any experienced words of wisdom? Talk to the shop owner?
Click to expand...

Better him being dead wrong about some unneeded maintence items than you being dead wrong about unneeded maintenance problems.
 
I'm assuming the plane is up on jacks with all the inspection plates opened. There is a difference between a discrepancy list and items that make the plane unairworthy. If any of the discrepancies make the plane unairworthy, get them fixed and defer the rest until you can move the airplane to another mechanic. Caveat: Sometimes items considered to affect Airworthiness by one mechanic are considered incidental by another...
 
Bell206 said:
Typical. An owner posts about his first annual, claims the IA is screwing him without any examples, and there is already a few who want to hang the IA without a trial. And people wonder why mechanics are suspicious of most pilots/owners.

To OP: post a scanned copy of the IA's discrepancy list so that we may give you the wisdom you so desperately request.
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Scanning wouldn't add any validity to it. We just need the discrepancy list, no matter how it's delivered.
 
mkosmo said:
Scanning wouldn't add any validity to it. We just need the discrepancy list, no matter how it's delivered.
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How do we know the IA wrote them down? I very seldom do.
 
Keith Diamond said:
hey all-
Doing my first annual with my 79 pa-32-300. Is there a process by which to report an IA that is dead wrong in some of his discrepancy list and is trying to run up costs? Any experienced words of wisdom? Talk to the shop owner?
Click to expand...
What lead you to choose this a$$ hole anyway?
 
Tom-D said:
How do we know the IA wrote them down? I very seldom do.
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We don't. Like I said, we just need to know what he's talking about, no matter how it's delivered... even if he's just summarizing the phone call or whatever.

I usually get my discrepancy list via a phone call, but occasionally my shop will send me a vague list. That being said, I've come to trust my shop and they know I'm likely to authorize just about any work they think is necessary for the aircraft.
 
My IA always gives me a written breakdown in the following manner:
- Items required to make the aircraft airworthy
- Items he suggests I do sooner rather than later, not an a/w issue yet, but could be before next inspection.
- Items I could have done if I so choose.
 
his week I'm starting an annual at Diamond Point airport, this 182 hasn't flown since August . I did a preliminary inspection a month ago, and saw that the seat tracks will not pass the AD, then told the owner get new tracks.

I don't deal with owners that require more than that.
 
Keith Diamond said:
hey all-
Doing my first annual with my 79 pa-32-300. Is there a process by which to report an IA that is dead wrong in some of his discrepancy list and is trying to run up costs? Any experienced words of wisdom? Talk to the shop owner?
Click to expand...
As that is written, there is not. The FAA is not going to interfere with any A&P-IA and their customers.They will get in involved when you can prove the IA violated a FAR. But only then.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
wrong.....Tom.
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how so?

as per 43.11

(b) Listing of discrepancies and placards. If the person performing any inspection required by part 91 or 125 or §135.411(a)(1) of this chapter finds that the aircraft is unairworthy or does not meet the applicable type certificate data, airworthiness directives, or other approved data upon which its airworthiness depends, that persons must give the owner or lessee a signed and dated list of those discrepancies. For those items permitted to be inoperative under §91.213(d)(2) of this chapter, that person shall place a placard, that meets the aircraft's airworthiness certification regulations, on each inoperative instrument and the cockpit control of each item of inoperative equipment, marking it “Inoperative,” and shall add the items to the signed and dated list of discrepancies given to the owner or lessee.
 
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Tom-D said:
A list of discrepancies is only required when the annual is being signed off as "UNairworthy"
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That certainly isn’t my understanding but having read many threads with your supposed superior knowledge and logic strewn about like organic fertilizer, I am not going to bother to try to explain it to you.
 
DutchRoller said:
That certainly isn’t my understanding but having read many threads with your supposed superior knowledge and logic strewn about like organic fertilizer, I am not going to bother to try to explain it to you.
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because you can't.
 
The first annual is often going to be an eye opener. Many aircraft sellers are selling because they can't afford to own, and that often means a lot of deferred, or worse, pencil-whipped maintenance. The new owner gets to correct the discrepancies.

The best owner advice I can give is to fix all the stuff required to bring the plane to airworthy status, and prioritize the rest, which may vary from near urgent to optional. Discuss with your mechanic, in person, the discrepancy items. Sometimes when you see them in person, they become much higher priority. My experience is is can take up to 3 years to fix all the prior owner's deferred maintenance and bring a plane up to your safety standards.
 
Tom-D said:
how so?

as per 43.11

(b) Listing of discrepancies and placards. If the person performing any inspection required by part 91 or 125 or §135.411(a)(1) of this chapter finds that the aircraft is unairworthy or does not meet the applicable type certificate data, airworthiness directives, or other approved data upon which its airworthiness depends, that persons must give the owner or lessee a signed and dated list of those discrepancies. For those items permitted to be inoperative under §91.213(d)(2) of this chapter, that person shall place a placard, that meets the aircraft's airworthiness certification regulations, on each inoperative instrument and the cockpit control of each item of inoperative equipment, marking it “Inoperative,” and shall add the items to the signed and dated list of discrepancies given to the owner or lessee.
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When I read this it does not seem to be saying that one must provide a list of discrepancies if the aircraft is "SIGNED OFF as UNairworther" (Tom, ref. your post no. 29,881, above), but it seems to be saying that a list of discrepancies must be provided once the inspector finds that the aircraft is unairworthy. It seems to me that this citation supports those saying that a list of discrepancies is required anytime the plane is unairworthy, not only when the inspection is signed off as unairworthy.
 
This guy's problem is that he doesn't trust the IA. That's a problem deserving of ending the relationship then and there.
 
Also....for the first annual....or first annual with a "new-to-you" IA....it might be good to have this inspection done "before" the inspection is due, like a month or two earlier. This can prevent many issues with the IA holding your plane hostage and or needing a ferry permit.
 
mkosmo said:
Scanning wouldn't add any validity to it.
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No it doesn't. But it forces the OP to go to the next step which he hasn't done. I gave every client a signed written list of airworthy disc regardless of situation. It's a cheap way to cut down any misunderstandings and provided a record in case the owner walked away.
 
I've only had one experience with an annual...the IA sent me an invoice of everything he found. Then he called me and we went over it item by item as he noted which he considered airworthiness items, which I should fix, and which could be deferred. I opted to fix everything that time allowed. Still some annoying issues but I've committed to myself that she'll be squawk free between now and the end of the next annual... I may even buy her a new engine monitor for being such a good girl all year...
 
bkspero said:
When I read this it does not seem to be saying that one must provide a list of discrepancies if the aircraft is "SIGNED OFF as UNairworther" (Tom, ref. your post no. 29,881, above), but it seems to be saying that a list of discrepancies must be provided once the inspector finds that the aircraft is unairworthy. It seems to me that this citation supports those saying that a list of discrepancies is required anytime the plane is unairworthy, not only when the inspection is signed off as unairworthy.
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We do not know if this aircraft is/was signed off as un-airworthy or not. A list of un-airworthy discrepancies is not required until the annual is finished and the sign off is to be UN-Airworthy.
Remember the annual can be stopped at any time. IF IT IS there is a requirement that a log entry is to be made as to what was inspected, and why the inspection was stopped.
 
It may be a very fine point but an IA/mechanic does not declare (or sign off) an aircraft as unairworthy. All he can do is find discrepancies and the ones that affect airworthiness have to be listed and provided to the owner. If he finds discrepancies that negatively affect the airworthiness of the aircraft, he simply says he's completed the inspection, provided the owner with the list of unairworthy discrepancies, and doesn't say anything about the airworthiness of the aircraft. If he doesn't find any discrepancies that would affect airworthiness, then he declares that he completed the inspection and found the aircraft to be airworthy. The IA and the owner discuss any minor discrepancies and if a list is requested, the IA could write them down or not. The owner is responsible for the airworthiness of his aircraft, not the IA or mechanic he hires. If he decides that he is more knowledgable than the IA and decides to ignore the list of unairworthy discrepancies or only correct some and not all--that's on him. The mechanic is only responsible for the work he accomplishes and the inspections that he does. He's not the maintenance policeman to ensure a client owner does what the mechanic says he "should" do. If an accident occurs and it is discovered that the owner neglected to correct a legitimate unairworthy condition--it's on the owner. not the IA that told him about it. The only entity that can declare an aircraft "unairworthy" is the FAA and they do that by suspending or revoking that aircraft's airworthiness certificate.
 
Witmo said:
It may be a very fine point but an IA/mechanic does not declare (or sign off) an aircraft as unairworthy. All he can do is find discrepancies and the ones that affect airworthiness have to be listed and provided to the owner. If he finds discrepancies that negatively affect the airworthiness of the aircraft, he simply says he's completed the inspection, provided the owner with the list of unairworthy discrepancies, and doesn't say anything about the airworthiness of the aircraft. If he doesn't find any discrepancies that would affect airworthiness, then he declares that he completed the inspection and found the aircraft to be airworthy. The IA and the owner discuss any minor discrepancies and if a list is requested, the IA could write them down or not. The owner is responsible for the airworthiness of his aircraft, not the IA or mechanic he hires. If he decides that he is more knowledgable than the IA and decides to ignore the list of unairworthy discrepancies or only correct some and not all--that's on him. The mechanic is only responsible for the work he accomplishes and the inspections that he does. He's not the maintenance policeman to ensure a client owner does what the mechanic says he "should" do. If an accident occurs and it is discovered that the owner neglected to correct a legitimate unairworthy condition--it's on the owner. not the IA that told him about it. The only entity that can declare an aircraft "unairworthy" is the FAA and they do that by suspending or revoking that aircraft's airworthiness certificate.
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Eloquent :)
 
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