Finding Downwind Struggle/Sweat

Salty said:
If you're at a towered airport, there is no 45 to enter downwind crap. That's for untowered fields. If they tell you to enter the downwind, they expect you to turn into the downwind in the most direct way possible.
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And to piggyback at towered fields downwinds are a means to get from the departure side of the field to the arrival side. If you are already on the arrival side you'll most likely be told to enter a base or conduct a straight-in to the active runway. For example, this morning I flew into Orlando Exec and they were using 07. I was coming from the Southwest (Tampa) and was given a 10-mile straight in arrival. Side note -- As I was IFR I got to fly thru the Disney TFR at 2000 which was a first for me which as pretty cool seeing it all from the air.
 
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pilotshashi said:
Am I the only one struggling to find the correct DOWNWIND at an unknown airport and getting Slammed by ATC?
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In you weather brief you kinda get a heads up for the runway(s) that will be in use. You can plan your pattern entry before you depart.

Enroute, ATIS indicates runway(s) in use and available much farther from the airport than ASOS. Get the ATIS early and plan your entry.
 
pilotshashi said:
One time at Naples I was unable to rectify my entry Tower was slamming me on radio and asking me do you have instructor on board but I did make the pattern correct "Jesus"
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On one of my solo cross-country flights, I realized that I wasn't where the tower controller told me to be, so I just told him, "I think I'm in the wrong spot," and he gave me new instructions.

One thing I wish I had done more often was to say "student pilot" when I checked in on a hew frequency. That alerts the controller that there may be a need to make allowances for inexperience or provide extra help.
 
midwestpa24 said:
Please tell me we don't need the magenta line to fly a traffic pattern! :yikes: That would be like using a GPS to find your own driveway!
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Depends. I've noticed that it can be easy to lose sight of the runway from pattern altitude when it's a small airport surrounded by 50-foot trees.
 
Or someone from another country that's never transitioned from an IFR flight plan to a VFR approach at a non-towered airport....or maybe has never flown in uncontrolled airspace.
 
Kritchlow said:
To the point you panic trying to find the downwind when VFR?
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There have been times when I have been more concerned about something than was warranted, and there have been times when I have been less concerned than I should have. Thirty years later, I'm a lot less likely to be intimidated by ATC, for example, and the response from ATC was something he specifically expressed concern about in the first post.

In general, I think people's troll meters give too many false positives. It's just speculation, and I think it drives away newcomers for no good reason in many cases.
 
Palmpilot said:
There have been times when I have been more concerned about something than was warranted, and there have been times when I have been less concerned than I should have. Thirty years later, I'm a lot less likely to be intimidated by ATC, for example, and the response from ATC was something he specifically expressed concern about in the first post.

In general, I think people's troll meters give too many false positives. It's just speculation, and I think it drives away newcomers for no good reason in many cases.
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Okay
 
Flyxaos said:
Yes...:)

I'm not sure what you are saying exactly. But if coming in to an unknown airport it is sometimes difficult to orient myself to the runway. Can't see it, which way do I land? Where do I put myself for the 45 or downwind? etc.

The wet compass is a bit useless to me, so I use the heading indicator. Study that, now. Then in the air if you are landing 27 or something, first imagine the plane in middle of that device. Then imagine pointing the nose at 27. Going from that point of view it is easier to start figuring out where your nose will be pointing on landing, downwind, 45 etc.
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This, do it this way. It's important to figure it out before you get to the airport, just think of the runway as a line from the direction the runway is pointed to through to the center of the DG, once you can visualize it that way you can form a clear picture as to how you will be entering the downwind. You can review the runways while preflighting, and have a general idea of which direction you will be coming from. But you rarely know which runway you will be landing at when preflighting. Winds change and situations change. You need to get comfortable figuring this out, drawing a picture in your head and executing on the fly. Pun intended. Avionics and Foreflight make it easier, but using this method is fool proof, plus it gives you a final check on your direction when you are lined up on final. If you are supposed to land on 27 but the dg is reading 23, you may have screwed up, but you'll know in time to fix it, rather than after you land....
 
pilotshashi said:
Am I the only one struggling to find the correct DOWNWIND at an unknown airport and getting Slammed by ATC?
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I have a traffic pattern computer that I use often. Works like a charm once you get used to using it. Another trick I use is to put the runway heading number at the bottom 6 o'clock position of the DG rose on downwind, and on the left side for left base, right side for right base. Hope this helps

https://www.mypilotstore.com/mypilotstore/sep/12632
 
pilotshashi said:
I completely understand your point of view but sometimes even though you are planning ahead of time sheets hit the fan and then last moment sweating in pants occurs. Even I'm joining correct DW, twr will get confused and slam me sheesshhhh
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Sweating in pants is called incontinence...
 
RussR said:
Am I missing something about online forum customs and the use of the "like" button?

I posted some questions for the OP to answer that would help us help him.

The OP "liked" my post.

The OP has posted since then.

The OP still has not provided any details, although he "liked" my post asking for them.

I'm beginning to think the OP doesn't really want any help.
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Troll like indeed.
 
"traffic pattern computer"......."metal landing calculator".........
William Pete Hodges said:
I have a traffic pattern computer that I use often. Works like a charm once you get used to using it. Another trick I use is to put the runway heading number at the bottom 6 o'clock position of the DG rose on downwind, and on the left side for left base, right side for right base. Hope this helps

https://www.mypilotstore.com/mypilotstore/sep/12632
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I'm sorry, but.......what??!!??

I don't 'think' you're still a student pilot, are u?
 
eman1200 said:
"traffic pattern computer"......."metal landing calculator".........


I'm sorry, but.......what??!!??

I don't 'think' you're still a student pilot, are u?
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Nope, but I still use it all the time at unfamiliar airports or when I am approaching from an unfamiliar direction. It's handy and you don't need to do math to use it. Besides, all I did was answer the first question posted. It sounded like he could use one.

One of my early flight instructors suggested I use cockpit tools in such a way as to eliminate math where possible. It is one way to cut down on pilot workload. I considered that to be sound advice, and I use it as much as possible.
 
William Pete Hodges said:
Nope, but I still use it all the time at unfamiliar airports or when I am approaching from an unfamiliar direction. It's handy and you don't need to do math to use it. Besides, all I did was answer the first question posted. It sounded like he could use one.

One of my early flight instructors suggested I use cockpit tools in such a way as to eliminate math where possible. It is one way to cut down on pilot workload. I considered that to be sound advice, and I use it as much as possible.
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I wasn't implying you weren't trying to help. I'm trying to figure out how "math" is involved in entering downwind? or literally how any tools are needed to know how to enter a downwind. or how, outside of being a student pilot and learning about pattern entry, doing it requires any amount of workload whatsoever. of the gazillion downwinds I've entered I haven't done one split second of maths. but maybe that's because me and maths don't get along very well.
 
eman1200 said:
I wasn't implying you weren't trying to help. I'm trying to figure out how "math" is involved in entering downwind? or literally how any tools are needed to know how to enter a downwind. or how, outside of being a student pilot and learning about pattern entry, doing it requires any amount of workload whatsoever. of the gazillion downwinds I've entered I haven't done one split second of maths. but maybe that's because me and maths don't get along very well.
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Whenever I plan a XC, I take a small sheet of paper, draw a runway diagram with lengths, width, altitude, and if nonstandard pattern, draw the rp turn or denote Tpa, and list frequencies.
Occasionally when I approach and haven’t pictured the pattern entry (or midfield overflight), or I’m assigned a runway I hadn’t anticipated, it helps me to “do the math” add 180 to runway heading or the +/- 90 to runway heading or the like.
 

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William Pete Hodges said:
www.mypilotstore.com

APR TPA-303 Traffic Pattern Orientator + T/S/D Computer

Traffic Pattern Orientator combined with T/S/D computer. Set in runway heading and see all headings of Traffic Pattern. 3.75
www.mypilotstore.com www.mypilotstore.com
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To me, the fact that those are available answers the OP's question. Apparently no, you aren't the only one.

With that said, I think this all boils down to getting momentary 'runway dyslexia'. A brain glitch that says runway 36 starts at the North end of the field.
It happened to me on a few occasions. Mostly in training. But never sober.
 
eman1200 said:
I wasn't implying you weren't trying to help. I'm trying to figure out how "math" is involved in entering downwind? or literally how any tools are needed to know how to enter a downwind. or how, outside of being a student pilot and learning about pattern entry, doing it requires any amount of workload whatsoever. of the gazillion downwinds I've entered I haven't done one split second of maths. but maybe that's because me and maths don't get along very well.
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Okay. I was once flying into an unfamiliar airport and I got confused as to where I needed to be and I ended up entering upwind thinking it was downwind. When another pilot gave a position report my DG rose did not match my expectations for what he was reporting, I left the pattern immediately and reconsidered my position.

Then I found the Traffic Pattern computer. It gives me a visual representation in the palm of my hand of my position relative to the runway landing zone as I approach from any direction miles before I have sight of the field. I typically get the wind, select my runway and dial it in, then dial in my approach vector. Now I see it all and can better visualize my position relative to the runway and plan my entry into downwind.

If the GPS is providing extended runway centerlines, I don't use it as much as I used to. My my first GPS didn't have a moving map or extended runway centerlines, so I used it alot and got used to using it. I keep it on the floor behind and centered at the base of the rear seat just past the landing gear handle lock. I can reach it and find it without looking, and I often grab it right after getting the weather and runway numbers. I dial in my approach vector and the runway in use, then spin it around to see my approach orientation to the runway selected. I don't usually read the numbers, but I do use the visual representation to plan my entry into downwind. I use different entry scenarios based on how much traffic is in the pattern. The little computer helps me visualize them.
 
SFDukie said:
Whenever I plan a XC, I take a small sheet of paper, draw a runway diagram with lengths, width, altitude, and if nonstandard pattern, draw the rp turn or denote Tpa, and list frequencies.
Occasionally when I approach and haven’t pictured the pattern entry (or midfield overflight), or I’m assigned a runway I hadn’t anticipated, it helps me to “do the math” add 180 to runway heading or the +/- 90 to runway heading or the like.
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after I got my ppl I did something similar. I had a kneeboard with a thing I whipped up that had freq's on it and some other stuff and a little runway diagram. I'd pen in the direction I was coming from. still no math though. also haven't done this in years, but again, I would just think outside of training this is pretty basic 101 type stuff that wouldn't require gadgetry to figure out.

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pilotshashi said:
I do conquer with you it's just my opinion that I asked on this platform at this moment I do not need any instructor but in future for sure if I mess up again LoL
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Serious question which may be contributing to your challenges. Is American English your native language?

I ask because if you’re doing mental translations to another language, something may be getting lost along the way.
 
Typically this would be done in preflight planning, however you can use your DG to get a mental picture. Your DG will show you where the approach end of runway X would be if you were on the extended centerline. Imagine the runway extending from that direction(with the opposite end being the reciprocal, look to the other side of the DG to avoid maths), then shift that mental picture to where the airport is in relation to your current position. For example you are flying roughly 210 direct towards an airport to land on either runway 33/15, pick either end of the runway to visualize its orientation using your DG:

1705519533420.png
Maybe this will help you find the downwind leg.
 
I've been cleared to land at a controlled airport without any pattern entry instructions. So you have to ask which traffic to make. ATC should normally tell you how they want you to enter the pattern, right or left base or downwind, or straight in.
 
New Haven, CT's main runway is 02-20. As a student pilot, that one boggled my mind! (not that that is hard to do, sadly!)

-Skip
 
chemgeek said:
I've been cleared to land at a controlled airport without any pattern entry instructions. So you have to ask which traffic to make. ATC should normally tell you how they want you to enter the pattern, right or left base or downwind, or straight in.
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When I've had this happen, it's because nobody else is flying. Been cleared to land 20 miles away before.

If that happens and they don't specify a pattern direction, then do whatever makes most sense from your direction of flight. I'd default to left traffic if either one made sense, but typically one choice is obviously less flying.
 
OH, I SEE So I realised sometimes TWR advise directly joining the Right or Left base of Runway XYZ & this freaks me out that; oh boy because I have a mindset of joining DOWNWIND, never joined directly BASE or never thought about it, constantly paying attention to join DOWNWIND, this is what the issue was oops sorry all #flightschoolstudent
 
OH, I SEE So I realised sometimes TWR advise directly joining the Right or Left base of Runway XYZ & this freaks me out that; oh boy because I have a mindset of joining DOWNWIND, never joined directly BASE or never thought about it, constantly paying attention to join DOWNWIND, this is what the issue was oops sorry all #flightschoolstudent
 
pilotshashi said:
OH, I SEE So I realised sometimes TWR advise directly joining the Right or Left base of Runway XYZ & this freaks me out that; oh boy because I have a mindset of joining DOWNWIND, never joined directly BASE or never thought about it, constantly paying attention to join DOWNWIND, this is what the issue was oops sorry all #flightschoolstudent
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One of the things I'm thankful for in training out of a very busy GA airport (KAPA) is that we get many variations of instructions from ATC. I feel like I'll be prepared to land at almost any airport after training here. This past Sunday I had my pre solo stage check (passed) and it was the day after a significant snow storm here in Denver. We were doing touch and go's and the only runway open was 17L and they had us using right traffic for that runway which required going around runway 17R. I said to the CFI "They can only do that because 17R is closed, right" and his response was "They're ATC. They can do whatever the hell they want." So yeah, lots of variation on joining/using the pattern.
 
strikes2k said:
One of the things I'm thankful for in training out of a very busy GA airport (KAPA) is that we get many variations of instructions from ATC. I feel like I'll be prepared to land at almost any airport after training here. This past Sunday I had my pre solo stage check (passed) and it was the day after a significant snow storm here in Denver. We were doing touch and go's and the only runway open was 17L and they had us using right traffic for that runway which required going around runway 17R. I said to the CFI "They can only do that because 17R is closed, right" and his response was "They're ATC. They can do whatever the hell they want." So yeah, lots of variation on joining/using the pattern.
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I can agree with you, as a few-time flyer (just to get cert's.) paying the rental dalla / hr. it's hard to be super consistent in flying mostly, but it is what it is, we learn as we grow!
 
exncsurfer said:
Typically this would be done in preflight planning, however you can use your DG to get a mental picture. Your DG will show you where the approach end of runway X would be if you were on the extended centerline. Imagine the runway extending from that direction(with the opposite end being the reciprocal, look to the other side of the DG to avoid maths), then shift that mental picture to where the airport is in relation to your current position. For example you are flying roughly 210 direct towards an airport to land on either runway 33/15, pick either end of the runway to visualize its orientation using your DG:

View attachment 124473
Maybe this will help you find the downwind leg.
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Sir, I know how to join the DW, the issue is what the heck ATC threw on me on PTT and confused me the hell out of it. I do know to join at 45 degrees mid-field at pattern alt.
 
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