Filing IFR with no IR rating

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I am a student pilot. My CFI showed me how to file a flight plan on my iPad. I can file it as IFR. I am sometimes tempted to file IFR so I don't have to worry about cloud clearance. I have never done this, but think I can get away with it. If I do this and stay VFR, I am legal? If I get into trouble and need to go IFR I am permitted to this as an emergency from what I understand. Again, I have never done this. If I use my CFI's name in the flight plan, am I safe? Does anyone ever check this IFR flight plans? Thank you for your help and again I have never done this.
 
"Hi, please tell me how to break the law and whether or not I'll get caught. I'll also put my CFI's name in the flight plan so when I crash, they'll be looking for him and not me."

If you want to get the experience of talking to people, get flight following.

If you want to fly In the clouds and IFR, get an instrument rating.
 
Old Geek said:
We all been trolled again, I think.
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Hey, just so long as he tells me where he's flying I can be waiting with the popcorn. :D
 
I'm a bit confused here...

Are you a primary student? (aka, no private pilot certificate yet)

I am sometimes tempted to file IFR so I don't have to worry about cloud clearance.
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Your CFI has explained that maintaining VFR clearance of clouds is your responsibility and not ATC, yes? So you do understand that filing any flight plan has nothing to do with passing the responsibility of cloud clearance to someone else, yes?

If I get into trouble and need to go IFR I am permitted to this as an emergency from what I understand.
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First is to learn how to and then always practice never getting into that spot in the first place. But if you are in a jam, are still a VFR pilot, and are about to get hung up in IMC, then you do need to confess the situation and seek the help of ATC so they can provide assistance to get you un-jammed.

While any questions are good, these are best asked of him/her.

And honestly, I think the CFI needs to focus a bit more on the tried/true non-electronic foundational basics before introducing electronic conveniences.
 
For the safety of all of us, yes, please file and fly into the clouds. At least that way when you troll into a burning pile of scrap metal none of us will have to read your posts any longer.
 
Sure, go for it. There are no sky police out there measuring your cloud clearances. There is also no one checking to see if you have a medical certificate or if the plane is in annual. You could also probably steal quite a few things from your employer and not get caught. No one declares all their income so neither should you. Fghting dogs is good sport and people will look the other way. Kids can be easily disciplined with a lit cigarette to their backs.
 
Unregistered said:
I am a student pilot. My CFI showed me how to file a flight plan on my iPad. I can file it as IFR. I am sometimes tempted to file IFR so I don't have to worry about cloud clearance. I have never done this, but think I can get away with it. If I do this and stay VFR, I am legal? If I get into trouble and need to go IFR I am permitted to this as an emergency from what I understand. Again, I have never done this. If I use my CFI's name in the flight plan, am I safe? Does anyone ever check this IFR flight plans? Thank you for your help and again I have never done this.
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Uh oh... I feel another 21 page thread coming. The other was questionable at first but this one really has to be a joke, right?
 
yes primary student. I am not intending, just wanted to know how the system works. So nobody checks to see who has filed and who is flying? No ramp check or anything like that?
 
Let us know know what day you're flying so the rest of us can stay home.
 
no worries everyone, just a theoretical question. No intention. Just always wondered.
 
You also can not put someone else's name on your flight plan in DUAT/DUATS. The PIC field always gets the name of the account the plan is filed under.
 
flyingron said:
You also can not put someone else's name on your flight plan in DUAT/DUATS. The PIC field always gets the name of the account the plan is filed under.
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That ... is a good point ... they will always know who you are.
 
Unregistered said:
No ramp check or anything like that?
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the odds are very low. It's like driving drunk, the odds are very low you'll run across a random sobriety checkpoint. In 25 years of flying and driving I've only been ramp checked once and encountered a sobriety checkpoint once. So knock yourself out. The only one who will ever know is you and, later, the ntsb investigator will eventually know but you won't care at that point.
 
JHW said:
the odds are very low. It's like driving drunk, the odds are very low you'll run across a random sobriety checkpoint. In 25 years of flying and driving I've only been ramp checked once and encountered a sobriety checkpoint once. So knock yourself out. The only one who will ever know is you and, later, the ntsb investigator will eventually know but you won't care at that point.
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That's what I thought. So for a ramp check, if you are arriving on an IFR flight, do they check if you are instrument rated? Do they know what your flight plan was? I thought they only were there to check registration, medical, etc.
 
Again, I think this is a topic that you need to be covering with the CFI.
 
Unregistered said:
I am a student pilot. My CFI showed me how to file a flight plan on my iPad. I can file it as IFR. I am sometimes tempted to file IFR so I don't have to worry about cloud clearance. I have never done this, but think I can get away with it. If I do this and stay VFR, I am legal? If I get into trouble and need to go IFR I am permitted to this as an emergency from what I understand. Again, I have never done this. If I use my CFI's name in the flight plan, am I safe? Does anyone ever check this IFR flight plans? Thank you for your help and again I have never done this.
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A couple of points here:

1. Having filed an IFR flight plan doesn't mean you can go into the clouds in an emergency, or ignore the cloud clearance requirements. It's only a way to let ATC and the flight data system know what you intend to do. In order to go into the clouds legally, emergency or no, you have to be operating under IFR. For that, you have to be given and accept an IFR clearance.

2. For you to accept an IFR clearance without an instrument rating isn't legal, it's a violation of part 61 of the FAR (I forget the exact section number). Even if you are instrument rated, you need to meet currency requirements to legally operate IFR. It's true that you might not get caught (depends on how good you are at navigation, radio work, and following ATC iinstructions). I knew an instrument student once who bragged about filing and operating IFR on CAVU days. I doubt if he was ever caught. But IF you're caught, you (as a private pilot) or your instructor (since you're a student pilot) will have to answer to the FAA.

3. Doubly so if you put your instructor's name on the flight plan without his permission. I can't believe anyone would actually do that. If you do it, I bet he'll fire you as a student and give you a tongue lashing you'll never forget.
 
Unregistered said:
That's what I thought. So for a ramp check, if you are arriving on an IFR flight, do they check if you are instrument rated?
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Yes.
Do they know what your flight plan was?
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They may or may not, but they can find out if they want.
I thought they only were there to check registration, medical, etc.
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There's more they are supposed to check than that. See here for the details on a Part 91 Ramp Inspection.

In any event, trying to fly IFR without having been trained for IFR flying is not going to work very well. There's a lot involved about which a Student Pilot would have no idea, and it wouldn't take long for ATC to realize you were clueless and file a Pilot Deviation report with the FSDO. At that point, they are going to track you down and begin an investigation with an eye towards a very harsh enforcement action against you.
 
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Unregistered said:
My CFI won't discuss hypothetical cases like this.
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For primary training, it's best to stay away from hypothetical cases and stick with the factual stuff.

Where are you in your training sequence? How many hours? pre- or post solo?

You might be putting the cart in such a position that the horse can't even see it yet.
 
Azure thanks for the detailed answer! Okay, so if I file IFR using my name (not my instructor) does someone actually check that I am IR rated? I know that is illegal just wondering to what level it is enforced.
 
Unregistered said:
My CFI won't discuss hypothetical cases like this.
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That's because if you make a smoking hole while flying on his sign-off, his certificate is on the line. You should expect some very precisely written restrictions on your CFI's endorsements in your case.
 
Unregistered said:
Azure thanks for the detailed answer! Okay, so if I file IFR using my name (not my instructor) does someone actually check that I am IR rated?
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There is no checking system which compares the pilot's name to the FAA Airman Certification database. In theory, you could go long time without being caught. OTOH, if you do come to the FAA's attention by either a ATC PD report, or ramp check, or any of a number of other ways (starting with someone who knows you are only a Student Pilot seeing you do this and calling the FSDO about it), you are going to be grounded for quite a while.

I know that is illegal just wondering to what level it is enforced.
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It is very strictly enforced if they catch you. It is also enforced by God, since folks without instrument training who try to fly in instrument conditions often end up dead at the bottom of a smoking hole.
 
AggieMike88 said:
For primary training, it's best to stay away from hypothetical cases and stick with the factual stuff.

Where are you in your training sequence? How many hours? pre- or post solo?

You might be putting the cart in such a position that the horse can't even see it yet.
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Post solo 48 hours.
 
Ron Levy said:
There is no checking system which compares the pilot's name to the FAA Airman Certification database. In theory, you could go long time without being caught. OTOH, if you do come to the FAA's attention by either a ATC PD report, or ramp check, or any of a number of other ways (starting with someone who knows you are only a Student Pilot seeing you do this and calling the FSDO about it), you are going to be grounded for quite a while.

It is very strictly enforced if they catch you.
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Thank you Ron. So what are the penalties? Loss of license? Fine? Jail time?
 
Unregistered said:
Thank you Ron. So what are the penalties? Loss of license? Fine? Jail time?
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For first offense, the standard penalty in FAA Order 2150.3B for flying without the appropriate rating is a 60-120 day suspension. But that assumes you are still alive after whatever you did comes to the FAA's attention, and in this case, there's a good chance the file will be closed with "pilot deceased" as the terminating action.
 
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There's absolutely no way that this idiot is serious. I bet this is our friend from a few days ago who can't pass a private pilot checkride.
 
Okay thanks, so besides death (which would not be pleasant admittedly), there is no real penalty other than a suspension.
 
Don't think the bait is good enough to take the hook.
 
Do a thread search. We've covered this topic before.
 
Unregistered said:
Okay thanks, so besides death (which would not be pleasant admittedly), there is no real penalty other than a suspension.
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That's the "standard" penalty. Aggravating circumstances could increase that to a revocation, and repeat offenses could include a civil penalty (essentially, a fine) of several thousand dollars. If you still persist, being tossed in jail is a possibility. There's also the fact that you'll have to report this whenever you apply for an aviation job (and with lots of pilots with no violations, your application goes to the bottom of the stack), or apply for aircraft insurance (up goes the premium).
 
It is worth mentioning that you do not have to be rated to file an IFR flight plan. You have to be rated to accept an IFR clearance. You will learn all about this during your eventual instrument training.
 
Unregistered said:
I am a student pilot. My CFI showed me how to file a flight plan on my iPad. I can file it as IFR. I am sometimes tempted to file IFR so I don't have to worry about cloud clearance. I have never done this, but think I can get away with it. If I do this and stay VFR, I am legal? If I get into trouble and need to go IFR I am permitted to this as an emergency from what I understand. Again, I have never done this. If I use my CFI's name in the flight plan, am I safe? Does anyone ever check this IFR flight plans? Thank you for your help and again I have never done this.
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How many NO's are needed for a reply?
 
Unregistered said:
Azure thanks for the detailed answer! Okay, so if I file IFR using my name (not my instructor) does someone actually check that I am IR rated? I know that is illegal just wondering to what level it is enforced.
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Other hypothetical situations - would you put your name on a final exam that someone else wrote? Would you forge a check? I'm sure there are many similar.
 
Unregistered said:
I agree. It was just a theoretical question. I have, do not and never will do any of the above actions. :)
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Not-so-hypothetical-question: Why don't you ask your CFI about each of these issues?
 
I don't know why I'm attempting to answer this, but I will.

Just filing an IFR flight plan doesn't really do anything, except start the process by which ATC can prepare a clearance for you when you request it. There's no reason for you to file an IFR flight plan if you're not intentionally embarking on an IFR flight (ie, it doesn't help in an emergency situation). But I can't think of any way that just filing the plan could get you in trouble. They don't cross-check that you have an instrument rating or anything like that. Instrument students do this all the time (though will usually put their instructors' names in the remarks as PIC, so there's no confusion later).

It's illegal to accept an IFR clearance if you don't have an IR (or aren't current for instrument flight). If/when you do an instrument rating, you'll figure out how that works, but in short you call up ATC and ask them for a clearance. In the background (and semi-automated) they look up your flight plan, modify it as needed to fit in the system, and give you instructions to get where you're going in the IFR system. Unlike VFR flying, in IFR flying you don't get to just fly around -- you have to go precisely where you're cleared.

If you "know how to fly IFR" (ie maybe you have the rating but aren't current) and get an IFR clearance and fly it appropriately, you're in that world of definitely-illegal-but-very-unlikely-to-be-caught-but-if-anything-happens-it-will-sure-as-hell-be-ruled-your-fault.

If you don't know how to fly IFR (ie probably you, if you're a real person), it will be very obvious to ATC, they will probably be very annoyed at this (because there's really not a way for that to happen accidentally), and will do their best to track you down. Granted, the likely outcome is a suspension, but as much as that doesn't sound so bad, a) they could try to press for worse, as this is pretty egregiously intentional, and b) a suspension will make it hard to get a job flying, or get screened for the DC FRZ, etc. Why would you want one?

Finally, if you're truly worried about the "in an emergency" situation, a) check the weather and don't fly into clouds, and b) if you do unintentionally lose VMC, just call ATC and tell them so. Unlike if you pretend to be IFR, they will be friendly and help you out. And they'll give you instructions (like climbing to altitudes and flying headings) that after your 3 hours of private pilot instrument time you'll have half a chance of following and surviving, unlike instructions (like joining airways and shooting approaches) that you might struggle to complete in a non-emergency situation.

In short:

1. Just filing a flight plan (probably?) isn't even illegal, and almost certainly won't get you in trouble, but also there's no reason for it.
2. Trying to get an IFR clearance when you don't know what you're doing is going to be damn obvious, get you in lots of regulatory trouble, and dangerous if you get into clouds.
3. Trying to get an IFR clearance when you do know how to do it but aren't legal for it is illegal and might possibly get you into regulatory trouble, but it's probably unlikely.
4. If you're VFR-into-IMC emergency, just tell ATC and they'll be able to help you much better than if you somehow pretend you're IFR or something else nonsensical. ATC is almost as unwilling to see you as a hole in the ground as you are.
 
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