File departure procedure?

DesertNomad

DesertNomad

Pattern Altitude
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DesertNomad
Does it make sense to file a departure procedure like...

KFTW HUBB9.TXK KMEM

Or should I just file the waypoints in the DP directly?
 
Now that we have many tools that tell us what SIDS and routing we are likely to get, my practice is to look that info up, and then file for it. And since FF sends you what to expect when you call for clearance, I have that already written down on my CRAFT, saving me from my horrid scribbles if that is what I'm given.

And some local knowledge for ya on that routing. Depending on time of day and the activity at DFW, there is a small chance you'll get vectored over the top of the big airport... but also expect to get a significant scenic tour to the north or south depending on the flow.
 
DesertNomad said:
Does it make sense to file a departure procedure like...

KFTW HUBB9.TXK KMEM

Or should I just file the waypoints in the DP directly?
Click to expand...
good question, I actually never thought to file a departure procedure. I always just assumed Air Traffic Control would decide what to give me

Do you guys also file arrival procedures? I've heard of people filing to an initial approach fix..
 
I’ve filed the coded DP quite a few times and never had issues getting the clearance.
 
I always just file direct via foreflight and if they need me to do something else foreflight will usually pop up a notification of what to expect. Failing that the controller will tell you. Admittedly I don't fly in and out of airports that have DPs very often so there might be good reasons to do this at certain airports but unless I had a specific reason I wouldn't put anything extra in the flight plan unless I really wanted to fly it.
 
Velocity173 said:
I’ve filed the coded DP quite a few times and never had issues getting the clearance.
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Out of curiosity, what's the value added in filing the DP itself? Does it just help for personal planning? I've always understood a SID to be primarily an ATC issued tool that they can elect to give for workload reasons
 
I have reviewed applicable DPs and STARs as part of my planning on the expectation that they will be assigned by name or by individual routing instructions, but haven't found a good reason to include one in my filing. If it's not busy at the time and ATC is okay with a more direct routing and climb to cruise altitude, I don't see a reason to interfere by asking for something more complex.
 
The places I go to seem to work differently. I can file any DP listed, going in my direction and shown as a previous route on FF or (fltplan.com) .... and half the time I will get cleared a different one.
And; the route ATC will likely clear me via (as pops up on FF) is usually....ie 80% of the time, wrong.
So I quit trying to guess, it was energy wasted - and don't file one.
 
Tantalum said:
Out of curiosity, what's the value added in filing the DP itself? Does it just help for personal planning? I've always understood a SID to be primarily an ATC issued tool that they can elect to give for workload reasons
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Well a few reasons. The airfield (KOZR) is incredibly busy with IFR military student traffic. For efficiency sake, it helps to have everyone on a SID. ATC doesn’t ban radar departures there but unless sticking in the local GCA pattern most are going off on the SID. Second, obviously being a IFR student training base, doing a SID has important training value. Finally, we were all /U when I was there, so the SIDs were usually taking us to our first fix / NAVAID on the way to the enroute phase anyway.

Ironically, KOZR is used as a SID filing example in the GP. Probably been in that FLIP for 50 years.

FF6DDB46-B207-476F-8BBB-4C11D37CDA74.jpeg
 
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I've found that filing a route that appears in Foreflight's "Routes" suggestion is best. Pick the route that most closely resembles your flight profile (i.e. Prop vs. Jet, altitudes, etc). I've never included a SID in the filing, but I did receive one in my expected route once (and also in the actual clearance).

My understanding is that you will always get the SID repeated from ATC when providing your clearance, even if you file it. So for example you'll never hear "Cleared to Trenton, as filed" if there is a SID in the clearance. You'll get "Cleared to Trenton. ARSENEL FIVE departure, Wooly Transition, then as filed." Please someone correct me if I'm wrong here.
 
DesertNomad said:
Does it make sense to file a departure procedure like...

KFTW HUBB9.TXK KMEM

Or should I just file the waypoints in the DP directly?
Click to expand...

If you had some reason you wanted to fly that SID it may get them to assign it to you, but I doubt it at FTW or any airport in airspace that busy. You’re probably going to get whatever works for them. Same thing with filing the individual Wayponts on a SID.
 
Velocity173 said:
Well a few reasons. The airfield (KOZR) is incredibly busy with IFR military student traffic. For efficiency sake, it helps to have everyone on a SID. ATC doesn’t ban radar departures there but unless sticking in the local GCA pattern most are going off on the SID. Second, obviously being a IFR student training base, doing a SID has important training value. Finally, we were all /U when I was there, so the SIDs were usually taking us to our first fix / NAVAID on the way to the enroute phase anyway.

Ironically, KOZR is used a SID filing example in the GP. Probably been in that FLIP for 50 years.

View attachment 77527
Click to expand...

What’s GP? That’s a strange Class D. What’s the story with the airport being off Center in it?
 
Tantalum said:
Out of curiosity, what's the value added in filing the DP itself? Does it just help for personal planning? I've always understood a SID to be primarily an ATC issued tool that they can elect to give for workload reasons
Click to expand...

Yup. That was their function when they were invented. Reduce verbiage
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
The places I go to seem to work differently. I can file any DP listed, going in my direction and shown as a previous route on FF or (fltplan.com) .... and half the time I will get cleared a different one.
And; the route ATC will likely clear me via (as pops up on FF) is usually....ie 80% of the time, wrong.
So I quit trying to guess, it was energy wasted - and don't file one.
Click to expand...
That was my thinking. I have found that ATC doesn't really give a rats A$$ what I file, and ends up giving me something else anyway, so why bother with the effort.
 
Velocity173 said:
Well a few reasons. The airfield (KOZR) is incredibly busy with IFR military student traffic. For efficiency sake, it helps to have everyone on a SID. ATC doesn’t ban radar departures there but unless sticking in the local GCA pattern most are going off on the SID. Second, obviously being a IFR student training base, doing a SID has important training value. Finally, we were all /U when I was there, so the SIDs were usually taking us to our first fix / NAVAID on the way to the enroute phase anyway.
Click to expand...
Thanks, I guess I just assumed (maybe incorrectly) that this was an ATC-issued thing and not really something a pilot could "request" or file for. As a side note, the "no DP" note in a flightplan is weaksauce.. if you can't fly a DP you shouldn't be filing IFR.
 
George Mohr said:
I've found that filing a route that appears in Foreflight's "Routes" suggestion is best. Pick the route that most closely resembles your flight profile (i.e. Prop vs. Jet, altitudes, etc). I've never included a SID in the filing, but I did receive one in my expected route once (and also in the actual clearance).

My understanding is that you will always get the SID repeated from ATC when providing your clearance, even if you file it. So for example you'll never hear "Cleared to Trenton, as filed" if there is a SID in the clearance. You'll get "Cleared to Trenton. ARSENEL FIVE departure, Wooly Transition, then as filed." Please someone correct me if I'm wrong here.
Click to expand...

You aren’t wrong. You get the SID when getting Cleared As Filed even if you filed it because that’s the rules. Here’s the note in the Controllers book reminding them of that. AIM 5-2-6 d. tells you all about it

NOTE−
1. SIDs are excluded from “cleared as filed” procedures.
 
luvflyin said:
SIDs are excluded from “cleared as filed” procedures.
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That's great. "Cessna 123 cleared as filed" but now you have to remember that the SID you filed was excluded from that
 
asicer said:
In other words, direct?
(when mountains or large bodies of water aren't in the way)
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I fly around lots of terrain and lots of R-type airspace, so I really try to plan a route, but just can't ever get "cleared as filed".

Sometimes I get "cleared to XYZ via (some change) then as filed", but that's as much as I hope for.
 
Tantalum said:
Thanks, I guess I just assumed (maybe incorrectly) that this was an ATC-issued thing and not really something a pilot could "request" or file for. As a side note, the "no DP" note in a flightplan is weaksauce.. if you can't fly a DP you shouldn't be filing IFR.
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I’ve seen NO SIDS and NO STARS, but don’t recall seeing NO DP. I wouldn’t go so far as to say you shouldn’t file IFR off an airport that has no DP.
 
Tantalum said:
That's great. "Cessna 123 cleared as filed" but now you have to remember that the SID you filed was excluded from that
Click to expand...

Right, which for me means there is no advantage (and this big disadvantage) in filing the SID. Just file the route you want and you'll get the SID if needed.
 
Tantalum said:
That's great. "Cessna 123 cleared as filed" but now you have to remember that the SID you filed was excluded from that
Click to expand...

If that happened you could fly the SID. But you wouldn’t have to. The point is, if they expect you to fly it, they have to say it, even if you filed it.
 
luvflyin said:
I’ve seen NO SIDS and NO STARS, but don’t recall seeing NO DP. I wouldn’t go so far as to say you shouldn’t file IFR off an airport that has no DP.
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Right, maybe I didn't state that right. I meant if you didn't have the proficiency to fly an instrument departure procedure then you probably shouldn't be flying on instruments anyway
 
Tantalum said:
That's great. "Cessna 123 cleared as filed" but now you have to remember that the SID you filed was excluded from that
Click to expand...
No, he's talking ATC's marching orders on reading your clearance. SIDs aren't going to be included in the "Cleared as filed" instruction, they will be a separate part.
 
Tantalum said:
Right, maybe I didn't state that right. I meant if you didn't have the proficiency to fly an instrument departure procedure then you probably shouldn't be flying on instruments anyway
Click to expand...

Ah, gotcha. Just not not knowing how to do one definitely is a you shouldn't be up there in the goo thang
 
Tantalum said:
Right, maybe I didn't state that right. I meant if you didn't have the proficiency to fly an instrument departure procedure then you probably shouldn't be flying on instruments anyway
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I don’t see why one wouldn’t be proficient in flying a SID. Most of them are just vectors off the runway or if you’re doing an RNAV SID, just follow the magenta line. It’s just tracking and intercepting courses which you would be proficient in when you get your PPL. I never really understood the aversion to SIDs.
 
George Mohr said:
My understanding is that you will always get the SID repeated from ATC when providing your clearance, even if you file it. So for example you'll never hear "Cleared to Trenton, as filed" if there is a SID in the clearance. You'll get "Cleared to Trenton. ARSENEL FIVE departure, Wooly Transition, then as filed." Please someone correct me if I'm wrong here.
Click to expand...
This has been my experience operating around the DFW and Houston Bravos.

Then once airborne and with the departure controller, highly likely to get radar vectored as they need, and an eventual "DIRECT" to a fix close to the destination if not the actual destination.
 
jordane93 said:
I don’t see why one wouldn’t be proficient in flying a SID. Most of them are just vectors off the runway or if you’re doing an RNAV SID, just follow the magenta line. It’s just tracking and intercepting courses which you would be proficient in when you get your PPL. I never really understood the aversion to SIDs.
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I totally agree. When I did my IR training that was a big emphasis "if you don't feel comfortable or proficient then write 'no DP/SID' in your flight plan comments" .. how hard is it to follow a picture and a piece of text that says "climbing left turn to heading 245 to altitude 4,000, intercept VOR X radial 45 then expect radar vectors"

Then again.. people also struggle with following a localizer needle and not busting step down altitudes.

But I digress. You don't need a magenta line for this stuff.
 
Tantalum said:
I totally agree. When I did my IR training that was a big emphasis "if you don't feel comfortable or proficient then write 'no DP/SID' in your flight plan comments" .. how hard is it to follow a picture and a piece of text that says "climbing left turn to heading 245 to altitude 4,000, intercept VOR X radial 45 then expect radar vectors"

Then again.. people also struggle with following a localizer needle and not busting step down altitudes.

But I digress. You don't need a magenta line for this stuff.
Click to expand...
Wait until the people that file “No SID/STAR” still get one in their clearance. They don’t realize all that does is tell ATC they don’t have SID or STAR plate and in that case, ATC will just verbalize the SID or STAR.
 
luvflyin said:
What’s GP? That’s a strange Class D. What’s the story with the airport being off Center in it?
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DOD General Planning. It’s a basic flight planning for military pilots. The heart of it is how to fill out a DD-175 but there are a few other goodies that assist in planning / filing. A must if your a VIP pilot and trying to figure out what code to annotate on your FP. ;)

As far as Cairns, I don’t recall the exact reason for the offset but I believe the rumor was to encapsulate Lowe, Knox and Hanchey towers all under Cairns for easier coordination.
 
jordane93 said:
Wait until the people that file “No SID/STAR” still get one in their clearance. They don’t realize all that does is tell ATC they don’t have SID or STAR plate and in that case, ATC will just verbalize the SID or STAR.
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Someone recently got all out of sorts trying to read back a clearance that involved a VOR radial.. it must have been a verbal SID. I wasn't paying very close attention as I was still on the ground getting the ATIS, but this poor guy was obviously struggling with part of the readback
 
Tantalum said:
Someone recently got all out of sorts trying to read back a clearance that involved a VOR radial.. it must have been a verbal SID. I wasn't paying very close attention as I was still on the ground getting the ATIS, but this poor guy was obviously struggling with part of the readback
Click to expand...

Like this guy...

 
Tantalum said:
Someone recently got all out of sorts trying to read back a clearance that involved a VOR radial.. it must have been a verbal SID. I wasn't paying very close attention as I was still on the ground getting the ATIS, but this poor guy was obviously struggling with part of the readback
Click to expand...
Yes. See above!
 
Tantalum said:
I totally agree. When I did my IR training that was a big emphasis "if you don't feel comfortable or proficient then write 'no DP/SID' in your flight plan comments" .. how hard is it to follow a picture and a piece of text that says "climbing left turn to heading 245 to altitude 4,000, intercept VOR X radial 45 then expect radar vectors"
Click to expand...
...especially since when the controller reads "No DP/SID" the pilot might just get, "climbing left turn to heading 245 to altitude 4,000, intercept VOR X radial 45 then expect radar vectors" to take down in her best clearance shorthand.
 
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