Ferry pilots

how do you expect to be paid?

  • prior to the flight?

    Votes: 5 50.0%

  • after the flight?

    Votes: 3 30.0%

  • if the flight is not completed do you still get paid for the whole trip?

    Votes: 1 10.0%

  • do you expect a ticket home after the flight?

    Votes: 1 10.0%
  • Total voters
    10
  • Poll closed .
Tom-D

Tom-D

Taxi to Parking
Joined
Feb 23, 2005
Messages
34,740
Display Name
Display name:
Tom-D
how do you expect to be paid?
 
Multiple Qs but can only choose 1 A.

After the flight is fine but need a card for gas, hotel, meals enroute.
Yes, a ticket home or a card so I can buy one.
 
What certificate is assumed for the ferry pilot? I'll assume commercial for this conversation.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
What certificate is assumed for the ferry pilot? I'll assume commercial for this conversation.
Click to expand...

Difficult to work for or operate a business that ferries aircraft and then claim ferrying aircraft is only incidental to that business.
 
Clip4 said:
Difficult to work for or operate a business that ferries aircraft and then claim ferrying aircraft is only incidental to that business.
Click to expand...
Agreed, but that wasn't listed as an assumption. In theory, I might be able to be a ferry pilot with an ASEL. My pay may be nothing, or just reimbursement of fuel. I don't think I can be reimbursed for hotels, but I haven't looked up the regulations either. I might just be a friend helping out.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Agreed, but that wasn't listed as an assumption. In theory, I might be able to be a ferry pilot with an ASEL. My pay may be nothing, or just reimbursement of fuel. I don't think I can be reimbursed for hotels, but I haven't looked up the regulations either. I might just be a friend helping out.
Click to expand...

Sure, you can be a ferry pilot with an ASEL with a Commercial certificate and you can do it with a Private for a friend if you don’t get caught.
 
Clip4 said:
Sure, you can be a ferry pilot with an ASEL with a Commercial certificate and you can do it with a Private for a friend if you don’t get caught.
Click to expand...
How are you defining "ferry pilot"? I'm not trying to be funny, but I think we are working from differing points of view.

To me, a "ferry pilot" is just someone who moves a plane that doesn't belong to them from one place to another at the behest of someone else. If I choose to have a grand adventure, and fly someone elses' plane at their request without compensation, I'm pretty sure I can do that with an private certificate (and thanks for the correction). I'll also assume that as per 14 CFR 61.113 b2, the airplane is the property, though one may argue the plane carries property.
 
Clip4 said:
Sure, you can be a ferry pilot with an ASEL with a Commercial certificate and you can do it with a Private for a friend if you don’t get caught.
Click to expand...
You can be a ferry pilot with a PPL completely legally too. No need to hide from anybody.
 
Ryanb said:
You can be a ferry pilot with a PPL completely legally too. No need to hide from anybody.
Click to expand...

a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (h) of this section, no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft
 
Clip4 said:
a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (h) of this section, no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft
Click to expand...

You assume some one is getting paid.
 
So, two pilots fly commercial to say, Pittsburg. One pilot pays his own way, the other has his flight paid for. These two pilots drive to say, Maryland and fly an airplane back to say, Alabama. This first pilot pays for the fuel, the second pilot gets paid a couple hundred dollars. The first pilot logged every second of the flight. Is the FAA boogie man coming after the first pilot?

ETA: pilot one is PPL, pilot two is CPL
 
Clip4 said:
The FAA will rule you will receive a return favor at some point in time and thus it is compensation under good will.
Click to expand...
Are you saying that I can not lend my aircraft to anyone I please? Where is the rule they must put it back where they found it?
 
Clip4 said:
The FAA will rule you will receive a return favor at some point in time and thus it is compensation under good will.
Click to expand...
Nope, you’re incorrect.

As Tom said, you’re assuming the ferry pilot is getting compensated. If PPL holder performs the ferry but covers the expenses himself in order to gain flight time, than its perfectly legal.
 
Walboy said:
I don't really think that fits most people's definition of a ferry pilot. I think most people involved in aviation consider a ferry pilot as someone who will fly an airplane from one place to another for compensation.
Click to expand...
Might not be the conventional way, but it happens and I know a few folks who have done it this way.
 
Walboy said:
I don't really think that fits most people's definition of a ferry pilot. I think most people involved in aviation consider a ferry pilot as someone who will fly an airplane from one place to another for compensation.
Click to expand...
true, to me a ferry pilot is some one you hire.
 
Ryanb said:
Nope, you’re incorrect.

As Tom said, you’re assuming the ferry pilot is getting compensated. If PPL holder performs the ferry but covers the expenses himself in order to gain flight time, than its perfectly legal.
Click to expand...


“The FAA has consistently construed compensation broadly. Compensation "does not require a profit, a profit motive, or the actual payment of funds." Legal Interpretation to Joseph Kirwan (May 27,2005). Rather, compensation is the receipt of anything of value. The FAA has previously found that reimbursement of expenses (fuel, oil, transportation, lodging, meals, etc.), accumulation of flight time, and goodwill in the form of expected future economic benefit could be considered compensation. Legal Interpretation to John W. Harrington (Oct. 23, 1997); Blakey v. Murray, NTSB Order No. EA-5061 (Oct. 28, 2003).

An item of value is not compensation under the regulations, however, unless the pilot's receipt of it.is contingent upon the pilot acting as pilot in command of an aircraft. If you loan your aircraft to a private pilot who pays the expenses associated with the operation of the flight (e.g. fuel) and you are placing no obligation on the pilot (e.g. ferrying your aircraft to a specific location), then it is unlikely that the private pilot would be considered to be acting as pilot in command of an aircraft for compensation or hire. We note that whether a private pilot is receiving something of value in exchange for acting as pilot in command is determined on a case-by-case basis and depends greatly on the purpose and objective ofthe flight.”
 
Last edited:
Clip4 said:
He is getting compensated.
Click to expand...
In that situation, they would NOT be getting compensated, so there’s no good will involved.

If someone owns and airplane and asks you to fly it from A to B and you cover the expenses, then it’s no different than anything else. Doesn’t matter if they receive flight time in return, they paid for it out of their pocket, so that regulation does not apply here.
 
Ryanb said:
In that situation, they would NOT be getting compensated, so there’s no good will involved.

If someone owns and airplane and asks you to fly it from A to B and you cover the expenses, then it’s no different than anything else. Doesn’t matter if they receive flight time in return, they paid for it out of their pocket, so that regulation does not apply here.
Click to expand...

The quote above is from an FAA chief council opinion. Your certificate, do what you want.
 
Clip4 said:
The quote above is from an FAA chief council opinion. Your certificate, do what you want.
Click to expand...
Your quote from the regulation
If you loan your aircraft to a private pilot who pays the expenses associated with the operation of the flight (e.g. fuel) and you are placing no obligation on the pilot (e.g. ferrying your aircraft to a specific location), then it is unlikely that the private pilot would be considered to be acting as pilot in command of an aircraft for compensation or hire.
 
Tom-D said:
Your quote from the regulation
If you loan your aircraft to a private pilot who pays the expenses associated with the operation of the flight (e.g. fuel) and you are placing no obligation on the pilot (e.g. ferrying your aircraft to a specific location), then it is unlikely that the private pilot would be considered to be acting as pilot in command of an aircraft for compensation or hire.
Click to expand...

When you enter into a contract with a pilot to move an aircraft to a place for compensation, you have hired them. The pilot must be a Commercial pilot.
 
Tom-D said:
Your quote from the regulation
If you loan your aircraft to a private pilot who pays the expenses associated with the operation of the flight (e.g. fuel) and you are placing no obligation on the pilot (e.g. ferrying your aircraft to a specific location), then it is unlikely that the private pilot would be considered to be acting as pilot in command of an aircraft for compensation or hire.
Click to expand...

Only if you ignore the line in parenthesis ( e.g. ferrying your aircraft to a specific location) which tells you can’t borrow a plane and ferry it with a private cert because you have accepted an obligation associated with the use.
 
Dean V said:
Only if you ignore the line in parenthesis ( e.g. ferrying your aircraft to a specific location) which tells you can’t borrow a plane and ferry it with a private cert because you have accepted an obligation associated with the use.
Click to expand...
When I allow you to use my aircraft, but specify you leave it at a location, does not make it a commercial operation.
 
Tom-D said:
When I allow you to use my aircraft, but specify you leave it at a location, does not make it a commercial operation.
Click to expand...

Since you conditioned the free use of the plane on its relocation, the flight is a ferry flight, pilot is acting as PIC for compensation, and has to be a commercial pilot.

Clip is correct in his advice.
 
Based on all the Legal BS and massively interpreted opinions involved, I see only one solution to this conundrum:

Sell the airplane to the pilot. While he is flying it, it is his. No requirements for a ferry flight, a commercial certificate or payment or compensation of any kind.

When he gets to his destination, buy the airplane back for an agreed price.

Now, that wasn't so hard, was it?
 
You're going to get great, meaningful results from this poll Tom. Great job! Well Done!
 
IK04 said:
Based on all the Legal BS and massively interpreted opinions involved, I see only one solution to this conundrum:

Sell the airplane to the pilot. While he is flying it, it is his. No requirements for a ferry flight, a commercial certificate or payment or compensation of any kind.

When he gets to his destination, buy the airplane back for an agreed price.

Now, that wasn't so hard, was it?
Click to expand...

Great solution, until the tax man cometh.
 
Tom-D said:
The intent was to find out what ferry pilots expected, but like always .......>
Click to expand...

When I ferried airplanes back in my instructing days I was paid $400/day plus expenses. All of it was invoiced and paid after the trip was completed. That was over 15 years ago, though. I have no idea what the current market is like.
 
Brad Z said:
Yes.
Click to expand...
This is the only answer.

If I’m being paid to ferry an airplane, I’m going to get some portion up front, the remainder upon completion, and transportation to and from the job. If your airplane can’t finish the trip, I’ll expect to be paid the agreed-upon rate (it’ll probably be a daily rate rather than a flat fee.)
 
What this plan? Hire the guy to be your shop sweeper and spark plug gapper. Now he can go move one of the company planes for business reasons, right? Incidental to business?

This one fbo I knew would ask it's line guys (ppls) to hop into a company plane and fetch a broken company plane and "don't forget the ferry permit."
 
Okay, so, how about ferrying an aircraft from and to a location where the FAA has no jurisdiction?
 
Sac Arrow said:
Okay, so, how about ferrying an aircraft from and to a location where the FAA has no jurisdiction?
Click to expand...
Are you exercising the privileges of your U.S. pilot certificate? Is it a U.S. registered aircraft? Does the flight originate or terminate in the U.S.?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top