Fell Out of a Chair

Ted

Ted

The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted
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No, not me. My mom has been having a number of falling issues when she's here. Refuses a cane, refuses to see a doctor, denies it's an issue. Typical. Her balance isn't great, she's 70 and I've known 94 year olds who are in better shape.

Last visit she was sitting in a paspisan - chair kind of thing - and fell out of it. I can't fall out of it trying. So, of course, she blamed the chair. The odd thing was that she seemed to pass out as it was more of a limp fall. She came to almost immediately, but I'm wondering if this isn't what's happening with at least some of her falls. My grandfather was thought to have mini-strokes before he died (76), but that was the 80s and as I understand it mini-strokes weren't really discovered then. I'm wondering if this is what's happening with mom.

Of course, if she refuses to see a doctor there are limits on what I can do, but I'm curious anyway. If I have some info I might have a better shot at changing her mind. Her brain in general has been on thedecline as I've said before.
 
My father in law was found at the bottom of a set of outdoor stairs with a significant head trauma but no scratches or bruising on his hands. Dr. speculated (no way to know) that he had a stroke at the top of the stairs and that's why he did't try to catch himself. My dad's had a couple of TIAs. They can be subtle or not. His first one was, the second, not so much.

Short answer: it sounds plausible.

Disclaimer: I'm not a Dr. and I didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

John
 
Fortunately my mom has almost no steps she has to climb (apartments with elevators in NYC and France), and when she's here we do our best to make sure her exposure to steps is minimal, plus we watch her and try to make sure we can catch her if she falls. But I'm sure she's falling at home and just doesn't tell anyone - there's nothing special about the water here in Cincinnati.
 
Some questions. Do you have siblings? Are there any other relatives? If not, this is all on you. Welcome to the life of Steingar.

The problem is your relationship to your mother is about to change radically. She is no longer in charge, you are. And you are going to need some legal documents to support this. A medical power of attorney would be a necessity at the minimum. You've got to be able to schedule a doctor appointment for her and get her there. Balance issues can come from a number of sources, problems with some which can be remedied.

If she is in that bad a shape a durable power of attorney would be even better. That way you can make certain her estate stays intact and use it to help her. I had to get a guardianship for my mother because she was no longer sufficiently compus mentis to sign a durable power of attorney.

If I recall correctly your mother still resides in France. She cannot anymore unless there is someone there to function as her advocate.

And she won't want any of this. Don't ask me how I know. There isn't anything easy about any of this, or anything very nice. Good luck.
 
Steingar, I have no siblings, so it is all on me. There are many different ways to handle aging parents. Without getting into details, I've got a reasonable idea of how I want to handle it and have made certain changes/decisions I've made already.

I'm not interested in opinions of how to handle an aging parent on here, more interested in thoughts regarding what might have caused her to fall out of her chair. Only time I almost did was when I got the eMail asking if I was interested in the 310 as a donation to Cloud Nine, but that was a bit different.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Steingar, I have no siblings, so it is all on me. There are many different ways to handle aging parents. Without getting into details, I've got a reasonable idea of how I want to handle it and have made certain changes/decisions I've made already.

I'm not interested in opinions of how to handle an aging parent on here, more interested in thoughts regarding what might have caused her to fall out of her chair. Only time I almost did was when I got the eMail asking if I was interested in the 310 as a donation to Cloud Nine, but that was a bit different.
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She went to get up, and either experienced balance issues or went unconscious. Either resulted in a fall. Good luck.
 
It is probably worth checking her B.P. My dad suffered numerous falls and near falls because his BP was low and would drop farther when he tried to rise quickly.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
No, not me. My mom has been having a number of falling issues when she's here. Refuses a cane, refuses to see a doctor, denies it's an issue. Typical. Her balance isn't great, she's 70 and I've known 94 year olds who are in better shape.

Last visit she was sitting in a paspisan - chair kind of thing - and fell out of it. I can't fall out of it trying. So, of course, she blamed the chair. The odd thing was that she seemed to pass out as it was more of a limp fall. She came to almost immediately, but I'm wondering if this isn't what's happening with at least some of her falls. My grandfather was thought to have mini-strokes before he died (76), but that was the 80s and as I understand it mini-strokes weren't really discovered then. I'm wondering if this is what's happening with mom.

Of course, if she refuses to see a doctor there are limits on what I can do, but I'm curious anyway. If I have some info I might have a better shot at changing her mind. Her brain in general has been on thedecline as I've said before.
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My father had a massive stroke in 1974. Mini-strokes were known of at that time. I remember needing to explain the difference to people who could not understand why Dad was not recovering.
 
kyleb said:
It is probably worth checking her B.P. My dad suffered numerous falls and near falls because his BP was low and would drop farther when he tried to rise quickly.
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That's a good point. She does have low BP.
 
Ted - maybe talk to your primary care physcian about what home services may be available in the area. Perhaps a PA can stop by and check her vitals and draw blood for analysis. Just a thought.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
That's a good point. She does have low BP.
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That would do it. :yes:

After my mom's stroke we went through the house looking for trip hazards. Rugs, chairs, shoes, etc. What ever was in the way was moved and she was taught to keep the paths clear of all potential trip hazards.

One thing we had to deal with is a very, very stubborn mother. Now you know where I get it. :D Anyway, threats of having her moved into a nursing home seemed to be the only thing we could do to get her to take her BP meds. She had stopped taking them and had a stroke. She got a second chance, with a 98% recovery from the stroke.

After 5 years she is doing just fine still living on her own with day time driving privileges returned. She turned 88 last month.

Good luck with your mom.
 
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Time for a thorough medical exam,could be several issues causing the falls. It's not going to be easy to get her to a doctor.the older we get the more obstinate we get. Good luck
 
Several years ago, Rachel's grandmother (mid/late 80's y/o) was having constant mini-fainting spells. They thought she was having mini-strokes or maybe just getting 'old'. Honestly, most everyone in the family had decided that she was 'on her way out'. After digging and researching and I believe a trip to the ER that resulted in being seen by a different Dr., the whole thing ended up being tied to a medication she was on - can't remember exact details of if it was causing a drop in her BP or if it was just affecting her mental capabilities, but I know that 1.) Rachel's bro-in-law and I had to basically carry her down the aisle so she could 'walk down the aisle' at Rachel's brother's wedding in the July of 05 and 2.) After taking her off of the meds shortly after that wedding, she was able to walk completely unassisted at my and Rachel's wedding in December of 05 - it was that quick of a turnaround. That was almost 10 years ago and she hasn't had any fainting issues since they took her off the med.
 
google orthostatic hypotension; I would think definitely worse if pre-existing hypotension.
(With TIAs is there not at least occasionally some temporary unilateral weakness/numbness?)
Best of luck with mom.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Steingar, I have no siblings, so it is all on me. There are many different ways to handle aging parents. Without getting into details, I've got a reasonable idea of how I want to handle it and have made certain changes/decisions I've made already.
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All I can say is good luck. One of the most difficult things is getting a parent to accept help.
 
Bob Noel said:
All I can say is good luck. One of the most difficult things is getting a parent to accept help.
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This. Inverting the parent/child relationship is enormously difficult, and often there are cognitive issues getting in the way. I have something not entirely different going on right now in my own rapidly diminishing family. Damn I miss my sister.
 
Yep, my mom is almost as stubborn as my grandmother, who was almost as stubborn as me. :D

Some good info on here. We don't let her hold her grandkids unless she's sitting in one particular chair that's basically impossible to fall out of. So that might be a good motivation for her.
 
Good luck, Ted. I know the kind of thing you're dealing with. At some point she'll be put in a position that will "force the hand" so to speak - when that happens, you need to be ready.

Best advice I can give is to spend as much time as you can with her while she's around.
 
wsuffa said:
Good luck, Ted. I know the kind of thing you're dealing with. At some point she'll be put in a position that will "force the hand" so to speak - when that happens, you need to be ready.
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Yes, we're completely expecting that. Could be tomorrow, could be 10 years.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Of course, if she refuses to see a doctor there are limits on what I can do, but I'm curious anyway. If I have some info I might have a better shot at changing her mind. Her brain in general has been on thedecline as I've said before.
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Balance problems and falls are also an early symptom of dementia or Alzheimer's, since you mentioned her brain being on the decline. If none of the more simple diagnoses pan out you could consider seeing a neurologist. Of course her refusal to see doctors is also a problem.

As you know, I have dealt with this too so I can truly sympathize. Good luck.
 
Everskyward said:
Balance problems and falls are also an early symptom of dementia or Alzheimer's, since you mentioned her brain being on the decline. If none of the more simple diagnoses pan out you could consider seeing a neurologist. Of course her refusal to see doctors is also a problem.

As you know, I have dealt with this too so I can truly sympathize. Good luck.
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Also a good point, and she is definitely in the early stages there. However, I don't see her doing anything with a positive diagnosis of that.

It seems like there are a lot of possibilities, some could be treated some not.

I do probably need to go to NYC, haven't been there in about 3 years.
 
Before getting worried about the more drastic possibilities, consider the more benign (and common) ones, such as orthostatic hypotension (already mentioned) and vasovagal syncope. The latter can cause unconsciousness at unpredictable times, so though it is "benign", it can lead to serious injury.

I don't envy you, Ted. I also have no siblings and went through this more or less alone with my Mom when she got into her late 80s. Luckily Dad was still around and very functional, and also, they lived within a few miles. It was still the most difficult and stressful situation I've ever dealt with.

Disclaimer: I'm not a physician and didn't sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night. I know about vasovagal because a close friend had it. She was an 80 year old 5k runner, had several bad falls during training, and wound up with detached retinas in both eyes and TBI. Hence the quotes around "benign". Someone who is falling unpredictably CANNOT live alone without a professional caregiver.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Yep, my mom is almost as stubborn as my grandmother, who was almost as stubborn as me. :D

Some good info on here. We don't let her hold her grandkids unless she's sitting in one particular chair that's basically impossible to fall out of. So that might be a good motivation for her.
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You might want to have a sit down talk with her. She knows that falls are a leading cause of death with seniors. Break a hip and you are almost done. She needs to get the fainting / falling thing under control ASAP.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
No, not me. My mom has been having a number of falling issues when she's here. Refuses a cane, refuses to see a doctor, denies it's an issue. Typical. Her balance isn't great, she's 70 and I've known 94 year olds who are in better shape.

Last visit she was sitting in a paspisan - chair kind of thing - and fell out of it. I can't fall out of it trying. So, of course, she blamed the chair. The odd thing was that she seemed to pass out as it was more of a limp fall. She came to almost immediately, but I'm wondering if this isn't what's happening with at least some of her falls. My grandfather was thought to have mini-strokes before he died (76), but that was the 80s and as I understand it mini-strokes weren't really discovered then. I'm wondering if this is what's happening with mom.

Of course, if she refuses to see a doctor there are limits on what I can do, but I'm curious anyway. If I have some info I might have a better shot at changing her mind. Her brain in general has been on thedecline as I've said before.
Click to expand...

There are several things like that unfortunately. My dad is kind of the same, he doesn't go 'unconscious' so to speak, but he does 'go away' every here and then. I wonder if they are not petite mal seizures.:dunno:
 
Geico266 said:
You might want to have a sit down talk with her. She knows that falls are a leading cause of death with seniors. Break a hip and you are almost done. She needs to get the fainting / falling thing under control ASAP.
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Already done. It's like convincing you certified is better. ;)
 
Geico266 said:
You might want to have a sit down talk with her. She knows that falls are a leading cause of death with seniors. Break a hip and you are almost done. She needs to get the fainting / falling thing under control ASAP.
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The leading cause of death is being alive, nobody survives it. Some go sooner than later, and making it to later is not always a favor to people.:(
 
Henning said:
The leading cause of death is being alive, nobody survives it. Some go sooner than later, and making it to later is not always a favor to people.:(
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I agree. If I ever buy a Duke and head for Hawaii, don't expect me to make it.
 
BP, TIA, stroke, blood sugar levels, the list of possibilities is pretty big, Ted.

Medical attention and testing needed.

My only advice is that you won't figure it out without the help of professionals, before she more seriously injures herself.

Wife just left home nursing care industry after almost 15 years and saw this stuff every day. Not just weekly.

You're significantly ahead of the game in that you're both aware it's happening, and you care, two things she saw lacking in the vast majority of cases.

When you've had a child of an elderly patient say on the phone that it's the home nursing care's fault that mom or dad fell again and the home care nurses job to get them all their medical treatments and tests because they're thousands of miles away and can't be bothered to send anything but checks, you come home pretty disgusted at how people treat their folks in many cases.

Good luck with it. Expect a lot of visits to Docs in your future and lots of making sure the system actually follows through and finds out what's going on.

Try not to take her out for a birthday party at 97, keep her out many hours past her bedtime because the party is more important than her, and then scream at the home care nurse on call that her wound vac needs changed but she's still at a party at 10PM at night 50 miles from her home and not going to be home until midnight so "you people need to get up here right now and change this dressing at the party! The office promised that you have on call nurses everywhere!"

Yeah. Been in the car while my wife took THAT phone call... People are awful.

Oh. The client's kid... Had been trained personally by my wife on how to change the dressing themselves. They just didn't bring the supplies with them. They figured you could just call and get a nurse and supplies on a Saturday night to show up at a birthday party like you order a pizza.

I'll certainly say my opinion of the general public was not enhanced toward the positive by my wife's time in home care.

Ever seen the show Hoarders? They're real and they're out there and more often than not they lived in squalor while their children lived many States away and didn't care.

Often what they hoarded reminded them of the children they felt they'd lost. Lovely people.

Hate to say it, but I'm glad she got out and is working wound care at a hospital now. At least someone has to care enough to drag you to the hospital before she sees you as a patient now.

Keep caring. Take care of mom. She took care of you... That's all I can really say.
 
Tell ya one thing - if you have stubborn parents who will not listen to you, they're gonna need to break something and not be able to get up for a day or so - you're gonna need the pain to wear them down. It sounds completely unreasonable and cruel - but if they won't listen there are consequences. They always told us that - in this case the tables turn and they need to understand the consequences. I'm not saying you can't check up on them often - but stubborn is going to deal with the consequences.
 
Yep, I've more or less figured that if she won't listen, she'll have to eat her "actions have consequences" line, and it'll be nobody's fault but her own.

I can't imagine it's fun to be in her shoes, and I can get that as much as a healthy 30 year old can. But, she saw my grandmother's end of life, which sure had an impact on me.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Yep, I've more or less figured that if she won't listen, she'll have to eat her "actions have consequences" line, and it'll be nobody's fault but her own.

I can't imagine it's fun to be in her shoes, and I can get that as much as a healthy 30 year old can. But, she saw my grandmother's end of life, which sure had an impact on me.
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It's not fun to be in their shoes. There comes a point where a bad fall is a blessing.
 
Henning said:
It's not fun to be in their shoes. There comes a point where a bad fall is a blessing.
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My grandmother really did pretty well. Lived in her house on own until 88. Then went to a retirement home in "independent living" until 90 or so. Fell in the shower at Christmas and that got her in nursing, where she rotted for 4 years. Would've been better in many ways if she'd fallen and just died there, those 4 years were not living.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
My grandmother really did pretty well. Lived in her house on own until 88. Then went to a retirement home in "independent living" until 90 or so. Fell in the shower at Christmas and that got her in nursing, where she rotted for 4 years. Would've been better in many ways if she'd fallen and just died there, those 4 years were not living.
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The way I figure it, my dad's prostate surgery was a mistake. It had a detrimental effect on his quality of life for over a decade, and most likely wouldn't be killing him until around this time. He's by no means suffering and the place where he lives has superlative staff, but he's not really there.:(
 
My advice - sit her down and tell her that you love her and want her around longer, so please, please, PLEASE listen. Tell her what you see. Beg her to use a cane or a walker. Take her to senior workout classes, the more she stays upright, the better she'll be. Talk to her doctor for her and see about changing medicine.

If you don't, her result will be falls, broken bones and a shorter, decreased quality of life.

You've reached the point where you're required to take care of her now. Timothy 5:4
 
bflynn said:
My advice - sit her down and tell her that you love her and want her around longer, so please, please, PLEASE listen. Tell her what you see. Beg her to use a cane or a walker. Take her to senior workout classes, the more she stays upright, the better she'll be.
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Done. She ignored it. Next?
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Would've been better in many ways if she'd fallen and just died there, those 4 years were not living.
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]
That is exactly what happened to my grandfather (dad's dad). He stubbornly fought any kind of assisted living and then one morning a few months after turning 90 he slipped and fell in the bathroom, knocked himself out and never woke up. Passed away a couple weeks later in the hospital.
 
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