Favorite/Most Difficult IAP's?

MauleSkinner said:
I wouldn't hesitate to fly it, but I'm kinda weird.:goofy:
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It's marginally even an instrument approach. The DME ARC remains at en route widths to the runway (4 mile wide primary area, centerline to edge, plus a 2 mile secondary each side of the primaries). Also, the minimum final segment obstacle clearance is 500 feet, which is twice the 250 feet of final ROC that most NPAs have.

Jeppesen doesn't even carry it in the RNAV database (which Garmin and most other RNAV avionics manufacturers use).
 
All it's gotta do is get me below the clouds to spot the airport in time to land.:yes:
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
So where at Martin State is the MEA anywhere near 900 feet?
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I see 1,800. But, that wasn't my point in any case.

It is basically a VFR approach. It "works at this location because it is very flat around there.

There is no point to it. If there was they would be all over the country.
 
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aterpster said:
I see 1,800. But, that wasn't my point in any case.

It is basically a VFR approach. It "works at this location because it is very flat around there.

There is no point to it. If there was they would be all over the country.
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And the DME arc approach is hardly the only type that's a no point approach. SDF approaches have no point today either, yet they still are out there.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
And the DME arc approach is hardly the only type that's a no point approach. SDF approaches have no point today either, yet they still are out there.
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They provide a decent final approach course but they are 1960s technology. They did have a purpose. The ARC DME approach never did. Some military rep insisted it be placed in the original TERPS in 1967.
 
Sluggo63 said:
Flew this one in a KC-135 last September. Of all the times I've landed at Honolulu/Hickam, it was the first time landing to the west. It was eye opening.
http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1411/00754LDAD26L.PDF
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Note that it is a 45 degree offset. The maximum permitted by criteria is 30 degrees. But, the feds being the "inventive" folks they are write up a waiver with tortured logic that permits the 45 degree offset. More than one air carrier crew has been bitten by that approach, especially during a howling "Kona" storm with low ceilings, driving rain, and strong winds out of the southwest.

But, for those with the high tech equipment and the training have, instead, this option:

http://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1411/00754rr26l.pdf

I spoke with a Hawaiian Airlines a 330 crew about one year ago. That airplane could easily do this approach but their company doesn't spend the money to train and qualify for it. Go figure.
 
aterpster said:
Note that it is a 45 degree offset. The maximum permitted by criteria is 30 degrees. But, the feds being the "inventive" folks they are write up a waiver with tortured logic that permits the 45 degree offset. More than one air carrier crew has been bitten by that approach, especially during a howling "Kona" storm with low ceilings, driving rain, and strong winds out of the southwest.

But, for those with the high tech equipment and the training have, instead, this option:

http://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1411/00754rr26l.pdf

I spoke with a Hawaiian Airlines a 330 crew about one year ago. That airplane could easily do this approach but their company doesn't spend the money to train and qualify for it. Go figure.
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http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1412/00552LDAC.PDF
 
Pilawt said:
It's been simplified since then, but in the old days (1970-72 was when I flew it frequently) the Santa Barbara LOC/ILS 7 was a lot of fun. From Fillmore VORTAC you went in a westerly direction 30-some nm to CHANNEL, then a ~45° left turn to GOLETA, then a ~45° right turn to LOBSTER, ~90° right turn to HALIBUT, where you made a ~90° turn onto the localizer. (This was in the days before intersections were limited to five-letter names.) Try it with a single VOR, no DME, no transponder, and of course no LORAN or GPS.

I've never flown it, of course, but the "Checkerboard" Runway 13 visual step-down approach to the old Kai Tak Airport in Hong Kong had to have been a challenge, especially in large airplanes at high approach speeds.

[EDIT: Sorry, didn't catch the 'USA only' in the OP]
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Thanks for publishing this. This is one approach that I just can't make out. I've watched many Youtube video's as taken from the flightdeck and it had to have been one of the most hairy approaches on the planet. Between the checkerboard as the aiming point and the strong crosswinds over the numbers, it must have made for one exciting ride. Just sorry I never got to make it.
 
aterpster said:
Note that it is a 45 degree offset. The maximum permitted by criteria is 30 degrees. But, the feds being the "inventive" folks they are write up a waiver with tortured logic that permits the 45 degree offset. More than one air carrier crew has been bitten by that approach, especially during a howling "Kona" storm with low ceilings, driving rain, and strong winds out of the southwest.

But, for those with the high tech equipment and the training have, instead, this option:

http://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1411/00754rr26l.pdf

I spoke with a Hawaiian Airlines a 330 crew about one year ago. That airplane could easily do this approach but their company doesn't spend the money to train and qualify for it. Go figure.
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As a matter of curiosity, does anyone know why HNL doesn't have a single LPV approach, despite having three ILS approaches?
 
RotorDude said:
As a matter of curiosity, does anyone know why HNL doesn't have a single LPV approach, despite having three ILS approaches?
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No.

I like the approaches. Keep them coming, if you can.
 
RotorDude said:
As a matter of curiosity, does anyone know why HNL doesn't have a single LPV approach, despite having three ILS approaches?
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No airport in Hawaii has a WAAS approach. The WAAS coverage is insufficient. It is robust in Alaska but not Hawaii.
 
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the ASE LOC/DME-E approach. 5 different nav frequencies, a really short leg off the IAF, several stepdowns, missed approach going onto the backcourse of a second localizer (which isn't reverse sensing because you're flying outbound - Think about that one for a minute)... That's one hairy approach.

http://flightaware.com/resources/airport/KASE/IAP/all/pdf

One that no longer exists, but that certainly ranks up there, is the old NDB/VOR/DME 34 (yeah, you read that right) into Sparrevohn, AK PASV. Among other notations, "Successful go-around improbable if initiated past the MAP." This one gets extra points for having a DME arc to an NDB FAC, and an obstacle just off the end of the runway that's higher than the mins for the approach, hence the notation.
 

Attachments

  • PASV NDB-VOR-DME 34.pdf
    151.6 KB · Views: 9
Rutland Vermont Ils 19 Y and Z


http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1412/00968ILDY19.PDF the "Y"

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1412/00968ILDZ19.PD the "z"

When this first came out, the glide slope was inop for a long time.

Consider doing this localizer only.

If you have dme, you have to note that the distances are from IRUT, the localizer until the missed, then it needs to be from Rut, the vor for the missed.

This is often not caught and it is very rough country all around.



I know that there is a gps approach to the same runway but play along for a second.

If you do the loc approach and try to use your Garmin 430W as the substitute for dme, here's what happens to you:

First the step downs are not in there at all. Well the actual named fixes aren't in there, and you have to do mental math to figure out where they should be.

Remember that the dme distances are from the localizer dme which is at the end of the runway but the Garmin is counting down to the end of the runway.

The actual missed approach point is .5 miles before the runway, even though the Garmin is telling you that the missed is still ahead of you, as it is counting to the runway. The actual miss is 1/2 mile sooner.

You could program the Garmin to the localizer dme fix and the count down would be correct, but then when you want the Garmins help on the difficult missed, it is not in there.

Real bad time right at the missed to be re programming.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the ASE LOC/DME-E approach. 5 different nav frequencies, a really short leg off the IAF, several stepdowns, missed approach going onto the backcourse of a second localizer (which isn't reverse sensing because you're flying outbound - Think about that one for a minute)... That's one hairy approach.

http://flightaware.com/resources/airport/KASE/IAP/all/pdf
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The interesting thing about KASE is what you do if you break out at minimums or if you need to go around after committing to descent from the MDA.
 
Everskyward said:
The interesting thing about KASE is what you do if you break out at minimums or if you need to go around after committing to descent from the MDA.
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Do tell - I've only flown *over* Aspen, not *into* Aspen!

From the plate, it looks like you have to drop a lot of altitude in a hurry, which is why it's a circling-only approach - I suppose you either make a 360 to the right to land straight in, or circle right to make a left-hand pattern for the opposite end?

Go-around, it looks like you'd need to circle to the right as well. Or maybe a half cuban. ;)

I flew up the Crystal River, around the end of the ridge northwest of Capitol Peak, then over ASE from the same direction as the approach and continued down the Roaring Fork River before landing at Leadville. But that's definitely NOT something you can do while IFR/IMC!
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Do tell - I've only flown *over* Aspen, not *into* Aspen!

From the plate, it looks like you have to drop a lot of altitude in a hurry, which is why it's a circling-only approach - I suppose you either make a 360 to the right to land straight in, or circle right to make a left-hand pattern for the opposite end?

Go-around, it looks like you'd need to circle to the right as well. Or maybe a half cuban. ;)

I flew up the Crystal River, around the end of the ridge northwest of Capitol Peak, then over ASE from the same direction as the approach and continued down the Roaring Fork River before landing at Leadville. But that's definitely NOT something you can do while IFR/IMC!
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Actually because of the configuration of the terrain, once you are passed the missed approach point it's better to circle to the left (meaning northeast).
 
dtuuri said:
Nope.

dtuuri
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Yup. I've done it. A number of times.

It's how we are trained and I fly into Aspen a lot.

Also, from the AF/D, runway 15 is standard (left) traffic while runway 33 is right traffic.

RWY 15–33: H8006X100 (ASPH–GRVD) S–75, D–100, 2D–160
MIRL
RWY 15: MALSF. PAPI(P4L)—GA 3.5o TCH 56 ́. 1.9% up.
RWY 33: REIL. Thld dsplcd 1000 ́. Road. Rgt tfc. 2.0% down.
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So you circle to the northeast, just as I stated in my previous post.
 
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Everskyward said:
So you circle to the northeast, just as I stated in my previous post.
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I can only go by the advice I paid for after the first time I landed there. I thought it would be a good investment to hire a C-182 and a local CFI to familiarize me and my copilot with local techniques. I was interested in the best way to circle and what to do if the tower clears an airplane for takeoff while coming in the opposite way on final. My review of the charts led me to think as you, but he said the same thing to me I said to you, "Nope."

So, off we went and did a few of the approaches. Then on our last landing, damned if the very thing I was concerned about didn't happen--tower cleared a jet for departure and told us to go around. At this point we were well below circling minimums, so he explained how you want to climb to the right of the runway and "bite off" as much extra turning radius as you can by sliding up Buttermilk as you gain altitude. Buttermilk rises from the airport and the more room you can give yourself by climbing and widening out farther as you're able, the more turning radius you have to reverse course. Going the other way, he contended, can leave you running out of room after you've committed yourself.

But I haven't been there often enough to say there isn't another way, only that the logic made sense and I saw it done with my own two eyes. If I had to do it tomorrow, that's how I'd do it.

dtuuri
 
dtuuri said:
I can only go by the advice I paid for after the first time I landed there. I thought it would be a good investment to hire a C-182 and a local CFI to familiarize me and my copilot with local techniques. I was interested in the best way to circle and what to do if the tower clears an airplane for takeoff while coming in the opposite way on final. My review of the charts led me to think as you, but he said the same thing to me I said to you, "Nope."



So, off we went and did a few of the approaches. Then on our last landing, damned if the very thing I was concerned about didn't happen--tower cleared a jet for departure and told us to go around. At this point we were well below circling minimums, so he explained how you want to climb to the right of the runway and "bite off" as much extra turning radius as you can by sliding up Buttermilk as you gain altitude. Buttermilk rises from the airport and the more room you can give yourself by climbing and widening out farther as you're able, the more turning radius you have to reverse course. Going the other way, he contended, can leave you running out of room after you've committed yourself.



But I haven't been there often enough to say there isn't another way, only that the logic made sense and I saw it done with my own two eyes. If I had to do it tomorrow, that's how I'd do it.



dtuuri
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I knew you wouldn't let it go without a rebuttal. :rofl:

Yes it's good to climb out a bit to the right of the runway on a go around on 15 but you still make left traffic.

As I said, I've done the circle the way I described (and according to what is published in the AF/D) a number of times and it works fine. I've also been to Aspen as recently as a month ago, not sometime in the distant past.
 
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dtuuri said:
I can only go by the advice I paid for after the first time I landed there. I thought it would be a good investment to hire a C-182 and a local CFI to familiarize me and my copilot with local techniques. I was interested in the best way to circle and what to do if the tower clears an airplane for takeoff while coming in the opposite way on final. My review of the charts led me to think as you, but he said the same thing to me I said to you, "Nope."

So, off we went and did a few of the approaches. Then on our last landing, damned if the very thing I was concerned about didn't happen--tower cleared a jet for departure and told us to go around. At this point we were well below circling minimums, so he explained how you want to climb to the right of the runway and "bite off" as much extra turning radius as you can by sliding up Buttermilk as you gain altitude. Buttermilk rises from the airport and the more room you can give yourself by climbing and widening out farther as you're able, the more turning radius you have to reverse course. Going the other way, he contended, can leave you running out of room after you've committed yourself.

But I haven't been there often enough to say there isn't another way, only that the logic made sense and I saw it done with my own two eyes. If I had to do it tomorrow, that's how I'd do it.

dtuuri
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Are you talking about landing on 33 or executing a go-around?
 
MauleSkinner said:
Are you talking about landing on 33 or executing a go-around?
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A go-around for 15 or circling. The phrase "circle to the left (or right)" is ambiguous to me, since it could be taken to mean either counter-clockwise (or clockwise) or mean veer left/right of the final approach course. I assume at ASE, unless really wierd conditions, nobody lands downhill on 33 in a jet. So I commented based on "(meaning northeast)".

dtuuri
 
Everskyward said:
Then you agree it's left traffic for 15, reversing you position from earlier in the thread?
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I didn't have that position. See my comment above about ambiguous terminology. I commented based on your "meaning northeast" description of the maneuver. Initiating a circle to land maneuver from that quadrant was against the advice I got, so I passed it on for consideration. I did not understand you to be discussing left-hand vs. right-hand directions of VFR traffic patterns.

dtuuri
 
dtuuri said:
I didn't have that position. See my comment above about ambiguous terminology. I commented based on your "meaning northeast" description of the maneuver. Initiating a circle to land maneuver from that quadrant was against the advice I got, so I passed it on for consideration. I did not understand you to be discussing left-hand vs. right-hand directions of VFR traffic patterns.

dtuuri
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Reread your post #62 and your blanket "nope" quoting my post about circling left. When you circle to land you are using a VFR traffic pattern so you basically stay in the northeast quadrant which is left traffic for 15 and right traffic for 33.
 
Banjo33 said:
http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1412/00552LDAC.PDF
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Horse of a different color. The VNY procedure is circling only.

For many years that was the only IAP to VNY. Then they installed the ILS with several waivers. When it eventually comes up for review it may not survive the process. It's the steepest ILS in the country (3.9 degrees) with CAT D minimums. CAT D is normally limited to 3.1 degrees.
 
Many decades ago I started IR training in my native country Sweden. Never finished it there. But I remember the instructors used to show the approach into Mo I Rana in Norway as an example of a weird one. It's a localizer approach where the rwy is 90 degrees to left. So at minimums, you should look to your left and if you see it, circle that way to land. If not, go missed straight ahead. Bit like Kai Tak on a smaller scale. Here it is:

https://www.ippc.no/norway_aip/current/aip/ad/enra/EN_AD_2_ENRA_5-1_en.pdf
 
Everskyward said:
Reread your post #62 and your blanket "nope" quoting my post about circling left. When you circle to land you are using a VFR traffic pattern so you basically stay in the northeast quadrant which is left traffic for 15 and right traffic for 33.
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Here it is again w/my emphasis:

Everskyward said:
Actually because of the configuration of the terrain, once you are passed the missed approach point it's better to circle to the left (meaning northeast).
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dtuuri said:
Nope.

dtuuri
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If you go around, say on short final for 15, the advice I'm passing along was to circle southwest up the Buttermilk slope staying as close as possible to the terrain, so you have more maneuvering room to turn left. If that's what you mean by "northeast", I missed it.

dtuuri
 
dtuuri said:
If you go around, say on short final for 15, the advice I'm passing along was to circle southwest up the Buttermilk slope staying as close as possible to the terrain, so you have more maneuvering room to turn left. If that's what you mean by "northeast", I missed it.
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Turning left is circling northeast to make left traffic even if you slide a little bit to the right at first to make more room for your turn. I definitely wouldn't call that "circling southwest". But you do it however you want. I was answering Kent's question as to how I do it.
 
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Everskyward said:
Actually because of the configuration of the terrain, once you are passed the missed approach point it's better to circle to the left (meaning northeast).
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Whoa... What? So you turn toward the *closer* terrain? :confused:

I just used ForeFlight to do a semi-transparent overlay of the plate on top of a VFR chart to help understand this... It looks like even past CEYAG (MAP) that you have more room on the right than on the left, though when very close to the airport it kind of evens out and if you fly the runway centerline past the airport, there is more room on the left.

It looks like the radius of the turn to the missed approach procedures is about 1.75nm, which would be standard rate at 330 knots... So it seems like it could be done a bit past the MAP! But at what point is left better than right?

Mari, you've made this approach even MORE interesting... Thanks! ;)
 
A little familiarity with the local topography helps. The blue lines show where the lowest terrain is. The low ridges on the west side of the valley don't show up so well on the sectional. Turning left could put you in Starwood, turning right could lure you up to Snowmass and a very bad ending. There's also high terrain on the missed approach, I think they are just trying to minimize panic by not putting the brown on the plate. Well maybe not. If ya stay at or above minimum altitudes there is plenty of room either way.

One concern with cheating to the right is that it will put one in conflict with departing traffic. A left turn avoids the departing traffic. Of course at 10.2 the traffic really shouldn't be a problem...

Land at Eagle and avoid all that. Of course that didn't work out too well for a couple of guys from Texas a few years ago...so land in Denver and avoid all that.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Whoa... What? So you turn toward the *closer* terrain? :confused:

I just used ForeFlight to do a semi-transparent overlay of the plate on top of a VFR chart to help understand this... It looks like even past CEYAG (MAP) that you have more room on the right than on the left, though when very close to the airport it kind of evens out and if you fly the runway centerline past the airport, there is more room on the left.

It looks like the radius of the turn to the missed approach procedures is about 1.75nm, which would be standard rate at 330 knots... So it seems like it could be done a bit past the MAP! But at what point is left better than right?
Mari, you've made this approach even MORE interesting... Thanks! ;)
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Once you are past the MAP you are using your eyes rather than any approach criteria so you would need to make the judgement for yourself when left is better than right. I agree that just past the MAP right might be better. When you are close to landing there is a pretty substantial ridge on the right, though. When you are past the threshold or if you are circling to land, left is definitely better than right, although you can slide a bit to the right to give you more room for the circle to the left.

I guess what I really wanted to point out with this example is that many think the "difficulty" in the approach comes from the procedure, where I think that, many times, the difficulty lies in what happens after you break out, especially if it is a circling approach or something unusual happens.
 
Everskyward said:
Turning left is circling northeast to make left traffic even if you slide a little bit to the right at first to make more room for your turn. I definitely wouldn't call that "circling southwest". But you do it however you want. I was answering Kent's question as to how I do it.
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If you only slide a little bit southwest... you're "semi-circling".

dtuuri
 
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