Fanning: Air Force Having Trouble Keeping Pilots, and Pay Isn’t the Problem

Yeah, and right along with groundings of the jet drivers is the giving of medals and PTSD medical benefits to drone pilots.
Sure makes a fella want to sacrifice for his country.
 
I just have one question- how on earth is the Air Force having trouble retaining pilots when they have kicked a ton of experienced pilots out due to downsizing in the last few years???
 
Fearless Tower said:
I just have one question- how on earth is the Air Force having trouble retaining pilots when they have kicked a ton of experienced pilots out due to downsizing in the last few years???
Click to expand...

It's all about the year group that a pilot is in whether there's a shortage. There might be an surplus of pilots coming up for major so they force out a number of those but declare there's a shortage because there's fewer pilots who are junior O3's. It's not like a an airline where a pilot is a pilot until he either can't pass a Class 1 or he hits 65 (?). The Air Force tries to manage the number of pilots in every grade level and may be forcing out pilots from one while crying about a shortage in another. It often looks like the manpower folks generate a self inflicted PIO in manning levels.

In the up or out AF, you have to do something other than fly to get promoted and be allowed to stay in. It's not like they can keep a pilot flying for his entire career like an airline. With any reduction in force you end up with fewer staff positions as well as cockpits so career opportunities for AF pilots get fewer and civilian alternatives look better.
 
Last edited:
Always the same. Supply and demand. After every buildup during combat type operations they get rid of many many pilots, grunts, whatever. Logical .
 
Dr. O said:
Yeah, and right along with . . . is the giving of medals and PTSD medical benefits to drone pilots.
Sure makes a fella want to sacrifice for his country.
Click to expand...

Don't forget medals for not firing your weapon . . .
 
Statements on unit morale are an OPSEC violation there Mr Fannning. :D

Same problem the Army has only no bonuses are given. No money=no flying. Flight school acceptance rates around 30 % and promotion rates just as low. A lot of guys would love to get out anyway but they don't have the hours to get a decent flying job.

You're important in time of war, after that you're put out to pasture. So is the nature of the military in a post war atmosphere.
 
Velocity173 said:
Statements on unit morale are an OPSEC violation there Mr Fannning. :D

Same problem the Army has only no bonuses are given. No money=no flying. Flight school acceptance rates around 30 % and promotion rates just as low. A lot of guys would love to get out anyway but they don't have the hours to get a decent flying job.

You're important in time of war, after that you're put out to pasture. So is the nature of the military in a post war atmosphere.
Click to expand...

Not to worry, we'll come up with a new war shortly.
 
I've not seen any numbers on how many hours pilots are being allowed, but I hope to heck that someone is pointing out to the bean counters that currency is literally a matter of life and death. There is a reason our aviation units have always been successful, and that reason can in a large part be traced to training. Penny wise.......
 
Always an issue where there's a RIF (Reduction in Force). Way back in 1973 I went through one after the RVN war was over. Army told me I was being released; couple weeks later: I was doing great and where did I want to go? I chose civilian life. They over reduced pilots and gave them bonus pay at release. Year later, called many back and gave them an incentive to return. A real cluster...

Best,

Dave
 
Threefingeredjack said:
I've not seen any numbers on how many hours pilots are being allowed, but I hope to heck that someone is pointing out to the bean counters that currency is literally a matter of life and death. There is a reason our aviation units have always been successful, and that reason can in a large part be traced to training. Penny wise.......
Click to expand...

Since when do bean counters care?

"Not my job, man."
 
Witmo said:
In the up or out AF, you have to do something other than fly to get promoted and be allowed to stay in. It's not like they can keep a pilot flying for his entire career like an airline. ...
Click to expand...

Witmo is correct, but almost all other Air Forces do in fact 'keep a pilot flying for his entire career'. In particular, the British Royal Air Force has lots of 30 year Flight Lieutenants and Squadron Leaders who don't plan to ever be Air Chief Marshal. Those guys just show up, fly the airplanes, and go home.

Our Air Force could work that way also. It just doesn't.

The other cultural factor in the Air Force is that our Air Force doesn't like to see squadrons top heavy with senior Captains, Majors, and Lieutenant Colonels. For one thing, somebody has to be snack bar officer.

And for another it's common for the Squadron Commander to be a 'fast burner' who has been promoted early and may well have less experience than that passed over Major sulking in the corner over there.

The squadron commander would be much happier to have mostly Lieutenants and junior Captains that he or she can mold into his or her image.

The result is that when the budget doesn't grow as fast as we hoped the meat axe swings at 10-15 year pilots, and the pilot training pipeline is dialed back.

Four or five years later there is a 'unexpected' shortage, bonuses are handed out, recently separated pilots are offered reinstatement, and a few of the 'essential' staff jobs that required pilots are eliminated or opened to mere navigators.

The current Air Force promotion system and culture guarantee continuing feast and famine of useable pilots.
 
You beat me to it. "Up or out" is a choice the AF makes. And a poor one IMO. There's no reason a Captain or a Major shouldn't be allowed to stay in until 20 years and just fly, if that's what they want to do. I knew plenty of people that would have preferred to stay a Captain or Major and fly, versus get promoted and get some desk job, hoping they could fly every once in a while. But I guess that's not "aspiring to leadership positions" which the leadership thinks everyone should be doing, and if you aren't, then you're some kind of deadbeat.
 
RussR said:
You beat me to it. "Up or out" is a choice the AF makes. And a poor one IMO. There's no reason a Captain or a Major shouldn't be allowed to stay in until 20 years and just fly, if that's what they want to do. I knew plenty of people that would have preferred to stay a Captain or Major and fly, versus get promoted and get some desk job, hoping they could fly every once in a while. But I guess that's not "aspiring to leadership positions" which the leadership thinks everyone should be doing, and if you aren't, then you're some kind of deadbeat.
Click to expand...
We have some of the same issues in the Navy (although we haven't started forcing field grade officers out yet like the AF has - mostly because we have a much greater need for O4s and O5s for the staff billets). This idea of focusing so much more on things (particularly 'joint' stuff) outside of your specialty had started before I came on AD in 2000, but ran completely amuck under Rumsfeld. I think it frankly stupid. It is the classic case of 'jack of all trades, master of none'.
 
The article outlines the problem. They're still pilots, they just won't fly much. I mean, what would they do with all their free time? Hang around POA? :D

There's a great book written by Mike Novell, a Medal of Honor recipient. He started flying toward the end of WWII but never saw combat. The details are a little hazy, but I recall he was an officer and was RIFed right after the war. He volunteered to return for Korea, again he was an officer. When Viet Nam came around he volunteered to head that direction but was told they needed helicopter pilots more than fixed wing, and that they would only train him to fly helos as a warrant - so he took the demotion so he could serve.

His son followed in his footsteps and they were the only father/son team to fly under hostile fire together in VN.

I've read a lot of books by VN helicopter pilots but few are written with as much pride, and by someone displaying so much integrity and character.
 
Anyone who joins the military thinking they're going to be flying for 20 yrs, will be sadly mistaken. They don't have seperate MOSs for the various non flying staff positions that pilots have to fill. A flying squadron only needs one XO and one CO. The rest will be stuck in staff or non op positions. Just the way the system is designed.

Wanna fly for 20yrs and not worry about non operational stuff, then go Army WOFT. If you can put up with all the BS additional duties, you'll remain in the cockpit the whole time.
 
Gerhardt said:
The article outlines the problem. They're still pilots, they just won't fly much. I mean, what would they do with all their free time? Hang around POA? :D

There's a great book written by Mike Novell, a Medal of Honor recipient. He started flying toward the end of WWII but never saw combat. The details are a little hazy, but I recall he was an officer and was RIFed right after the war. He volunteered to return for Korea, again he was an officer. When Viet Nam came around he volunteered to head that direction but was told they needed helicopter pilots more than fixed wing, and that they would only train him to fly helos as a warrant - so he took the demotion so he could serve.

His son followed in his footsteps and they were the only father/son team to fly under hostile fire together in VN.

I've read a lot of books by VN helicopter pilots but few are written with as much pride, and by someone displaying so much integrity and character.
Click to expand...

Mike Novosel actually did fly B-29s in combat against Japan towards the end of the war. He wasn't able to stay active after the war with the drawdowns though.

First time I met Mike was in the Army Aviation Museum. I was in the gift shop and I actually had his book in my hand contemplating buying it. Just then Mike walked in. I took the oportunity not only to buy the book but have Mike sign it for me. We chatted for a bit and he wished me luck in flight school. Awesome guy.

Second time I saw him was on aircraft selection day drinking beers at the O club. There's Mike at the bar hanging out with the students telling stories. The guy's not much over 5 ft and he's standing up on the bar step to raise himself up. A MOH guy talking shop with a bunch of new aviators who've done nothing yet to prove themselves. Just one wise aviator passing down advice to the new crop. Awesome guy.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top