FAF to MAP Speeds

midlifeflyer said:
LOL! I was once asked to keep my speed up in a 172. Put the nose down, kept it below redline, and headed downhill at 120 KTS.
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Flying a 172 on the approaches at IAD at 120 knots was standard procedure. On short final, pull power, slip hard, drop 10 at 110, 40 at 85 and bring her down. I never missed the first turn off even when I started the slow down at the threshold (it is 4500 feet down and a wide highspeed).

I once had the controller ask if I could maintain 160 on the approach in the Navion. I told him "until I hit the ground."
 
aterpster said:
You need to read this:
View attachment 69643
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How does that impact what I posted?

Yes, if you are flying a higher speed, you are in a higher category, and you have higher mins because of the TERPS and the clear area for the circle.

That does not mean that a CAT B aircraft has to fly the approach at the max allowable speed for CAT B, which is what was implied in the post I was replying to originally.
 
Kritchlow said:
Yes... the way I always interpreted the category is the higher of 1.3 Vso or the speed flown after the FAF.
Generally that’s for circle, but I believe it can be a factor on the straight in approach in the event of a missed.
Correct me if I’m wrong...
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You're right. It affects straight-in minimums at some locations with turning missed approaches:

https://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1812/06978r18.pdf

There are more extreme cases than this one.
 
2nd505th said:
My instructor insists I fly 90kts FAF to the MAP on an ILS or LOC approach. I calculate (hopefully correctly) that a standard ILS 200' AGL MAP puts me 3,816 feet from the threshold at 3 degrees. That is about the distance I think I would be on a base to final in a VFR traffic pattern and normally in my plane I would be at 68kts. 90 kts seems way to fast and its bugging me. Am I wrong here?
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Here’s what the Instrument Flying Handbook has to say...
Most small airplanes maintain a speed well in excess of 1.3 times VSO on an instrument approach. An airplane with a stall speed of 50 knots (VSO) has a normal approach speed of 65 knots. However, this same airplane may maintain 90 knots (1.8 VSO) while on the final segment of an instrument approach. The landing gear will most likely be extended at the beginning of the descent to the minimum descent altitude, or upon intercepting the glideslope of the instrument landing system. The pilot may also select an intermediate flap setting for this phase of the approach. The airplane at this speed has good positive speed stability, as represented by point A on Figure 4-11. Flying in this regime permits the pilot to make slight pitch changes without changing power settings, and accept minor speed changes knowing that when the pitch is returned to the initial setting, the speed returns to the original setting. This reduces the pilot’s workload.
Aircraft are usually slowed to a normal landing speed when on the final approach just prior to landing....​
 
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PaulS said:
Can't do IR check rides in IMC.
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Sure you can... But the DPE has to agree to act as PIC, and it's their name on the flight plan.

I asked the DPE for my instrument checkride if he would be willing to do it in IMC, and he said "If we do it in VMC, you only have to meet PTS standards. If we do it in IMC, you have to meet MY standards."

IK04 said:
I flew a brand-new Cessna 152 into my home airport and the controller did not recognize the tail number. I was flying max RPM down the ILS course and he advised me "Citation 460, maintain best speed, please..."
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I was once coming back to KMSN in an Archer from the north (KAUW or KCWA), and since I was already pretty much on the FAC for the ILS 18, they cleared me for the approach almost as soon as I checked in with Madison Approach, 15-20 miles out. Almost as soon as they had done so, an airliner checked in, and they vectored him nearly back out of their airspace... There was a stiff headwind too, I think I was only getting 70-80 knots GS. When handing me off, they said "Archer 41E, contact tower now, and pedal as fast as you can!" :rofl:
 
90 knots is also helpful in the math department and makes it easy to calculate your time when you cross over in the event you lose your GS so you can still do the LOC approach.

You DO start a timer when you cross right????


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k9medic said:
90 knots is also helpful in the math department and makes it easy to calculate your time when you cross over in the event you lose your GS so you can still do the LOC approach.

You DO start a timer when you cross right????


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Not in the past 8 or 9 years (some training scenarios excepted).
 
flyingcheesehead said:
There was a stiff headwind too, I think I was only getting 70-80 knots GS. When handing me off, they said "Archer 41E, contact tower now, and pedal as fast as you can!" :rofl:
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I once was asked to slow to 80 knots which is on the back side of the power curve for me, when I switch over to tower, they asked me for my best speed?! Rookie controller? Fortunately is was borderline IFR conditions.
 
k9medic said:
90 knots is also helpful in the math department and makes it easy to calculate your time when you cross over in the event you lose your GS so you can still do the LOC approach.

You DO start a timer when you cross right????
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"Losing your GS" could mean it's stuck in the middle, making you think you're the best ILS flyer since Jimmy Doolittle. Multi-tasking with a LOC approach would seem to be good insurance you aren't getting too low too soon.

EDIT: Or low enough too late. Had it not been for my suspicion the GS needle was stuck and then the middle marker coming on way before minimums, my Captain would have landed our Learjet on the last 1000' of runway 23 in Buffalo, instead of the first 1000', forty years ago. I made him go around and we learned a lesson about glide slope indicators.
 
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This is the problem with automation.

I was taught how to “push the head and pull the tail” as well as to start a clock when shooting an ILS.

I fully embrace glass cockpit but there are some basics that are just not being taught anymore thanks to GPS.


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dtuuri said:
"Losing your GS" could mean it's stuck in the middle, making you think you're the best ILS flyer since Jimmy Doolittle. Multi-tasking with a LOC approach would seem to be good insurance you aren't getting too low too soon.

EDIT: Or low enough too late. Had it not been for my suspicion the GS needle was stuck and then the middle marker coming on way before minimums, my Captain would have landed our Learjet on the last 1000' of runway 23 in Buffalo, instead of the first 1000', forty years ago. I made him go around and we learned a lesson about glide slope indicators.
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I had that happen on an ILS to my home base. GS came in normally and stuck there. Not being Dolittle, I knew there had to be something wrong. Multi-tasking with the LOC (the information was all there even without thinking in terms of switching to it).
k9medic said:
This is the problem with automation.

I was taught how to “push the head and pull the tail” as well as to start a clock when shooting an ILS.
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...Or the benefit of it. I prefer not to push the head or pull the tail of an ADF, or, for that matter, rely on 4-course LF Radio Range. I like ILS better than VOR too. I guess I'm just some young kid with no appreciation for how much better the past was.

I also used to start a clock all the time on the ILS, but it wasn't to be able to fly the localizer if the GS went away. My preferred answer to the loss of any equipment on an approach is going missed.
 
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James331 said:
I would have failed you.

First off it’s not real life, they ain’t going to clear two planes on the same approach at the same time.
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Are you sure about that? Don’t tell the approach controllers at O’Hare that they’re doing it wrong then....
 
Jmcmanna said:
Are you sure about that? Don’t tell the approach controllers at O’Hare that they’re doing it wrong then....
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The OP was flying into ORD?

Even if he was, if approach screwed up and stacked a LR close behind a 182RG or something, and it’s to the point you need to suck your gear and flaps back up, especially for a student/low instrument time guy, I’d say just keep flying that stabilized approach and let ATC deal with their mistake, don’t get yourself screwed up by their screw up.


I stand behind what I said if you re-configuring the aircraft at that stage of flight/IAP thats not good, any DPE who would ask you to do that on a check ride it’s not a DPE you want to do a check ride with
 
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teejayevans said:
Really?! You clearly couldn’t recognize it as Mooney, but now you think you know more about it’s flight characteristics?
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Not exactly. I have over 1000 hours in various Mooney's, as I was delivery and checkout pilot/instructor for the Mooney dealer at Boeing Field. I also owned N201MW, a 77' 201.

But you seem to be more knowledgeable????????
 
kgruber said:
STILL wouldn't be behind the power curve!
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80 knots actually is behind the power curve in some Mooneys... Like Mine. I don't know what model @teejayevans has or what his L/dmax is, but mine is 91.5 knots.

Now, 80 knots isn't so far behind it that you have to drag it through the air with the engine. It is still a Mooney, after all, and 80 is still a healthy margin above the stall, so you're still near the bottom of the curve.
 
kgruber said:
Not exactly. I have over 1000 hours in various Mooney's, as I was delivery and checkout pilot/instructor for the Mooney dealer at Boeing Field. I also owned N201MW, a 77' 201.

But you seem to be more knowledgeable????????
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Best glide for the J is 91K....so 90K or less behind the power curve.
 
midlifeflyer said:
...Or the benefit of it. I prefer not to push the head or pull the tail of an ADF, or, for that matter, rely on 4-course LF Radio Range. I like ILS better than VOR too. I guess I'm just some young kid with no appreciation for how much better the past was.

.
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That or you have never flown outside of US airspace.






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James331 said:
The OP was flying into ORD?

Even if he was, if approach screwed up and stacked a LR close behind a 182RG or something, and it’s to the point you need to suck your gear and flaps back up, especially for a student/low instrument time guy, I’d say just keep flying that stabilized approach and let ATC deal with their mistake, don’t get yourself screwed up by their screw up.


I stand behind what I said if you re-configuring the aircraft at that stage of flight/IAP thats not good, any DPE who would ask you to do that on a check ride it’s not a DPE you want to do a check ride with
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I didn’t say he was flying into ORD, I was disputing that more than one aircraft can’t be cleared for an approach at the same time, because they absolutely can be.
 
Jmcmanna said:
I didn’t say he was flying into ORD, I was disputing that more than one aircraft can’t be cleared for an approach at the same time, because they absolutely can be.
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Depends.
Not into a uncontrolled field.

Also that doesn’t change anything, he ether should have kept on with his stabilized approach, or gone missed.
 
dtuuri said:
From 10 miles out??
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From the point you drop gear, which is for most 1 dot off the glide slope or 3nm from the FAF, at that point I’m not swinging my gear back up/changing configuration shy of going missed.
 
How about 20 miles out, on the GS? 30? Doesn't range kind of make a difference?
 
kgruber said:
You Mooney types need some refresher training. Behind the power curve has NOTHING to do with max glide speed.

You would have to be below max endurance speed to get behind the power curve.

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2013/november/pilot/proficiency-behind-the-power-curve
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They are the same, here is just 2 examples I found...
3817206969bd4f2e6b7d3fad4f44a6ed.jpg

fafbe7d53a19b4a92a7d5fc280915f6b.jpg


BTW, max range (point D on AOPA chart) is different than max endurance.
 
Like I said.................you need remedial training!!

You don't even have a clue as to what L/D means!!!!!!!!!!
 
James331 said:
Think I addressed that.


1 dot off / 3nm from the FAF
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Well, the OP was 10 miles out and apparently put the wheels down according to your simple rule--then was faced with how silly that rule is and did something about it. As a former DPE, I wouldn't dock him for it.
 
dtuuri said:
Well, the OP was 10 miles out and apparently put the wheels down according to your simple rule--then was faced with how silly that rule is and did something about it. As a former DPE, I wouldn't dock him for it.
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Or 3nm
 
dtuuri said:
"Or 3nm, whichever comes last?"
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Where did I say that?

It’s common sense, if those are the two cues to drop gear and configure, if you’re positioned waaaay out there and it comes to one dot and you’re still 10nm or something to the FAF you’re not going to drop the gear, if ya lack that common sense you probably shouldn’t be taking the checkride.
 
kgruber said:
Like I said.................you need remedial training!!

You don't even have a clue as to what L/D means!!!!!!!!!!
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I do, the fact you point to an article that doesn’t even reference best glide speed , which is what we’re talking about tells me you’re the clueless one.
Maybe you should find the authors of the 2 presentations I screenshot and tell them they need remedial training.
 
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