F-35: What The Pilots Say

EvilEagle said:
"against multiple A-4's"... pretty impressive for an F-4... :)

The F-35 is never going to be able to brag about dogfighting, why try? As I said before - it's a tool for a few missions. Air supremacy isn't one of them. It doesn't need to be able to dogfight as long as we have airplanes that can.
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As you know, the Raptor and the F35 solve political problems more than tactical problems.

How’s the Guard Golden Eagle program coming along?
 
TCABM said:
Probably because there’s foreign aid dollars that are specifically required to be spent on F-35 foreign military sales purchases.
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We give foreign aid to Canada? U.K.?

EDIT - Apparently we give Canada $35.5 million in aid, but it's for their Department of the Interior; zip for military. We also give the U.K. $150,000 in aid for all agencies. Again, zip for military. We give Saudi Arabia $355,000, 3% for military.

https://explorer.usaid.gov/
 
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kyleb said:
Your opinion, please: What situations would you prefer your -15 over the -35 for A/A combat? Wouldn't the stealth and sensor attributes put you in the catbird seat in most situations other than a visual dogfight?
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That makes sense for the way the public thinks about stealth. Many times at airshows people ask similar questions - “you’ll never even know they are there”. When the 117 came out and to a large extent even when the 22 came out, there was not much that could find a “stealth” airplane. As technology changes, it’s just not the same. Since I have to keep it unclass, I’ll just say that the only time I’d want to do a/a in a 35 over the 15 is if I’m going after one fighter that’s in a double digit SAM mez. (Or one fighter per F-35 in my formation assuming we each still have our massive 2 missile loadout. Any other time I’ll take the Eagle.
 
TCABM said:
As you know, the Raptor and the F35 solve political problems more than tactical problems.

How’s the Guard Golden Eagle program coming along?
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Truth, but they are both good jets. The Raptor is a great jet now they have worked out the kinks. Should’ve bought 750 of em!

Golden Eagle is a thing of the past because we need all the ones that were supposedly “silver eagles” to stay as long as the other ones. Now it’s just the Eagle and we’re trying to find a way to stretch them as long as the DoD needs us flying. Thankfully It sounds like the F-15CX/EX is going to get bought which will solve a LOT of problems for our fighter force in the future.
 
EvilEagle said:
That makes sense for the way the public thinks about stealth. Many times at airshows people ask similar questions - “you’ll never even know they are there”. When the 117 came out and to a large extent even when the 22 came out, there was not much that could find a “stealth” airplane. As technology changes, it’s just not the same. Since I have to keep it unclass, I’ll just say that the only time I’d want to do a/a in a 35 over the 15 is if I’m going after one fighter that’s in a double digit SAM mez. (Or one fighter per F-35 in my formation assuming we each still have our massive 2 missile loadout. Any other time I’ll take the Eagle.
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Two missiles? Aren’t they supposed to have like 4 AIM-120s shoved up their cute little kangaroo pouch? Those would be useless?

*has no idea what I’m talking about. I suppose the SAM(s) would drop the 120? I also suppose there is nothing stealth about letting a 120 fly.

Also, the more I think about this, how stealth can a J35 be with two AIM-9s hanging off if. Seems like you’d need to stick with only 120s if you wanted full stealth. Got yourself a problem if that doesn’t work and you end up close.
 
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jesse said:
Two missiles? Aren’t they supposed to have like 4 AIM-120s shoved up their cute little kangaroo pouch? Those would be useless?
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They can carry up to 4 internal. If you ask them they don’t really ever plan on that if there are any SAMs or targets in the area. If they are loaded “wall to wall” it’s still half of what my Eagle brings, and 1/4th of what the CX will bring.

I don’t want to get down too many rabbit holes. The jet is great for some things. A/A just isn’t one of them. They are very useful for some missions and I’m glad other people fly them.

Remember not every country that’s buying these is a staunch supporter of ours and our interests. This technology WILL get out there and there will be even more vulnerabilities uncovered. Turkey, Isreael, Italy; at least we aren’t selling them to France or Belarus.
 
Seanaldinho said:
The Aviationist has been linked in this thread once already, and as it would happen they just published another topical article.

https://theaviationist.com/2019/04/...t-their-first-red-flag-with-the-lightning-ii/

Interesting read, and a good website for those interested in military aviation outside the US (with a healthy dose of US material too).
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That’s funny. I was at that flag, the numbers quoted are definitely not accurate. Ahh, the media (or maybe the fighter pilot ego when in front of the cameras!) haha
 
EvilEagle said:
That’s funny. I was at that flag, the numbers quoted are definitely not accurate. Ahh, the media (or maybe the fighter pilot ego when in front of the cameras!) haha
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Do have to take everything with a grain of salt.

The quote "...we neutralized more than 100 SAM systems and never lost a plane..." could easily mean that during the entire flag, all aircraft combined accomplished that number.
 
Seanaldinho said:
Do have to take everything with a grain of salt.

The quote "...we neutralized more than 100 SAM systems and never lost a plane..." could easily mean that during the entire flag, all aircraft combined accomplished that number.
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Oh I know that’ll be for the whole exercise - the part I was talking about was “never lost a plane” - that’s just not true.
 
EvilEagle said:
Oh I know that’ll be for the whole exercise - the part I was talking about was “never lost a plane” - that’s just not true.
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Did a lot of the various flags over 20 years and to say the reality of what happened on the range and what came out of the big debrief and the small debriefs were different is an understatement. Mix a magazine article with an agenda in and you have a real field day.
 
EvilEagle said:
Truth, but they are both good jets. The Raptor is a great jet now they have worked out the kinks. Should’ve bought 750 of em!

Golden Eagle is a thing of the past because we need all the ones that were supposedly “silver eagles” to stay as long as the other ones. Now it’s just the Eagle and we’re trying to find a way to stretch them as long as the DoD needs us flying. Thankfully It sounds like the F-15CX/EX is going to get bought which will solve a LOT of problems for our fighter force in the future.
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New F-15s may solve near time fighter shortfalls, but these new fourth generation jets will be in the inventory long after our adversaries have fifth generation jets on the ramp so we may be digging ourselves a future hole. I sure wish we had the capability for reopening the Raptor line and getting the number we actually need for both today and tomorrow's Air Force instead of something that will be obsolete about the time the new airplane smell has worn off.
 
EvilEagle said:
That makes sense for the way the public thinks about stealth. Many times at airshows people ask similar questions - “you’ll never even know they are there”. When the 117 came out and to a large extent even when the 22 came out, there was not much that could find a “stealth” airplane. As technology changes, it’s just not the same. Since I have to keep it unclass, I’ll just say that the only time I’d want to do a/a in a 35 over the 15 is if I’m going after one fighter that’s in a double digit SAM mez. (Or one fighter per F-35 in my formation assuming we each still have our massive 2 missile loadout. Any other time I’ll take the Eagle.
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What does the text in bold mean?
 
Velocity173 said:
Chinese are already one step ahead of us. So is anyone on the list to get S-400s from Russia.

https://www.ibtimes.com/china-devel...cting-stealth-planes-including-f-35-f-2644452
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My impression reading the citation is they they have similar capabilities to our current AWACS. The reference to certain angles agrees to what I've heard about why these planes have leading/training edges and other edges all at the same angle- to reduce the angles a RADAR is reflected. It wouldn't surprise me if they were using satellites to scatter a signal off aircraft that they could detect with their planes.
 
Restart of the Raptor line has been thrashed out a couple of times over the years. Last estimate I saw, was in excess of 2 billion bucks and more than two years prep work before the first part would be made. Lead time on engines is almost two years and there would have to be a major redesign and qualification of the electronics suite due to obsolete parts in some of the boxes.
 
Craig said:
Restart of the Raptor line has been thrashed out a couple of times over the years. Last estimate I saw, was in excess of 2 billion bucks and more than two years prep work before the first part would be made. Lead time on engines is almost two years and there would have to be a major redesign and qualification of the electronics suite due to obsolete parts in some of the boxes.
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Maybe, but still far, far less expensive than designing new engines and a new airframe from scratch.
 
Double digit SAM - the double digit part is the SA-10 family of systems. (SA-10A/B/C, 12, 20, 21)

And the MEZ as described above.
 
Witmo said:
New F-15s may solve near time fighter shortfalls, but these new fourth generation jets will be in the inventory long after our adversaries have fifth generation jets on the ramp so we may be digging ourselves a future hole. I sure wish we had the capability for reopening the Raptor line and getting the number we actually need for both today and tomorrow's Air Force instead of something that will be obsolete about the time the new airplane smell has worn off.
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That’s the point though, “stealth” as thought of IRT airplanes is talking about a very small RCS (Radar cross section). Radar is in the X-band spectrum. LONG long L O N G before the 15X would be retired, the X band will be all but retired. (Thus making “stealth” irrelevant). We’ve gone to plaid with the thought that every future plane has to be “stealthy” in order to survive. 10 years ago I would probably agree with you but what I’ve learned (especially in recent years is) the X band is getting very crowded and very easy to counter with EA (jamming). A jammer is on an order of 30-50x cheaper to purchase than developing/investing further into stealth. Out of band solutions are the future, stealth is great right now when those x band systems are up and operating. That won’t be the case for long (relative to the life cycle of any new fleet of jets).
 
First public demo in the US last weekend.

 
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One of my best friends flies the F-35 (after the A-10 and Tornado) I would like to have the money the government pays for the helmet alone. $300K
 
EvilEagle said:
That’s the point though, “stealth” as thought of IRT airplanes is talking about a very small RCS (Radar cross section). Radar is in the X-band spectrum. LONG long L O N G before the 15X would be retired, the X band will be all but retired. (Thus making “stealth” irrelevant). We’ve gone to plaid with the thought that every future plane has to be “stealthy” in order to survive. 10 years ago I would probably agree with you but what I’ve learned (especially in recent years is) the X band is getting very crowded and very easy to counter with EA (jamming). A jammer is on an order of 30-50x cheaper to purchase than developing/investing further into stealth. Out of band solutions are the future, stealth is great right now when those x band systems are up and operating. That won’t be the case for long (relative to the life cycle of any new fleet of jets).
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I'm not going to get into a discussion of electronic attack with you but anything that emits is subject to exploitation (re HOJ?). I don't have a crystal ball to know what will be around in thirty years (possible lifespan of new F-15s) but I do know that they won't be survivable against even fifth generation jets long before their airframes age out. There are reasons certain radars use certain frequencies not the least of which is the relation of frequency, wavelength, antenna size, cell resolution, track update rates, etc. Current stealth is designed to counter the radars used for tracking and terminal guidance and I'd bet those frequencies are still going to be in use in thirty years. Will other tracking technology probably exist in the future--I'd bet on that also. Today's F-15s will be even more vulnerable to the new technology in all likelihood.
 
Witmo said:
I'm not going to get into a discussion of electronic attack with you but anything that emits is subject to exploitation (re HOJ?). I don't have a crystal ball to know what will be around in thirty years (possible lifespan of new F-15s) but I do know that they won't be survivable against even fifth generation jets long before their airframes age out. There are reasons certain radars use certain frequencies not the least of which is the relation of frequency, wavelength, antenna size, cell resolution, track update rates, etc. Current stealth is designed to counter the radars used for tracking and terminal guidance and I'd bet those frequencies are still going to be in use in thirty years. Will other tracking technology probably exist in the future--I'd bet on that also. Today's F-15s will be even more vulnerable to the new technology in all likelihood.
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Agree to disagree. The X band is not long for this world.
 
EvilEagle said:
Agree to disagree. The X band is not long for this world.
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Old radars/weapons don't go away, they just get sold to other countries that may, perhaps, need a reminder whacking once in a while. For most of the last 30 years we've been dueling with the cutting edge of 1960 SAMS. They will still kill you and took great joy in showing them the pointy end of a HARM.
 
Pugs said:
Old radars/weapons don't go away, they just get sold to other countries that may, perhaps, need a reminder whacking once in a while. For most of the last 30 years we've been dueling with the cutting edge of 1960 SAMS. They will still kill you and took great joy in showing them the pointy end of a HARM.
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I know all about how SAM systems are proliferated. I’m not saying they won’t be there, I’m saying that the X band will be unusable. If the X band radars are completely blinded it couldn’t see a B-52 any better than a 35.
 
Before the air force completely went bonkers and abrogated the EA mission to the Navy, some concepts were thrown around to replace the EF-111 lost capability with a "EB-52". I read some of the specs and boy, that thing would have been a monster lol.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Before the air force completely went bonkers and abrogated the EA mission to the Navy, some concepts were thrown around to replace the EF-111 lost capability with a "EB-52". I read some of the specs and boy, that thing would have been a monster lol.
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I wonder why not an EB-767 or similar? Lots more airframes to pick through
 
kyleb said:
I wonder why not an EB-767 or similar? Lots more airframes to pick through
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There was no KC-46 at the time; it was just a white paper anyways. Predictably it never went anywhere, just like the re-engine idea. The USAF didn't get rid of the EF-111 to get right back and procure yet another dedicated mission aircraft and all the lifetime costs it entails, so that's right out. Joint and multi-role is the flavor of the decade these days it seems. Jack of all trades, master of none. Yipeee.
 
I forgot I had an early model of one in my office - forgive the dust :)

F35.JPG
 
hindsight2020 said:
Before the air force completely went bonkers and abrogated the EA mission to the Navy, some concepts were thrown around to replace the EF-111 lost capability with a "EB-52". I read some of the specs and boy, that thing would have been a monster lol.
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Hey, we got a lot of nice ALQ-99 transmitters out of that deal.:).

EW is changing and an EB-52 would have just been a larger target for home on jam regardless of the amount of noise it puts out.:eek: The future is a high/low mix of Manned and UAV Electronic Attack plus a whole lot of cyber from remote locations.

How this will against the threat is being worked out in labs and ranges but EW is truly one of the most dynamic areas the DoD deals with. It's not sexy, but it's critical and it's always an intellectual mission. Few of us wanted Prowlers out of VT-86 but it ended up being a good mission for me for 20 years.
 
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