excessive instructor fees?

my girlfriend is a kindergarten teacher

She's well paid, considering she gets summers off and makes 35k with full benefits as a new (non-tenured) teacher. She earns that money though, she works hard and has to put up with a bunch of crap I would never be able to handle.

Probably the hardest part of the job for her is working with people at the school who are tenured and dont give a crap. a few bad apples that make things hard for everyone.
 
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ronnieh said:
I don't disagree with you Henning. I was just thinking that a guarentee of a 40 hour ticket might be a bit much.
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It really isn't. When you charge at the top of the market for your services, there is an expectation of extraordinary ability. Look at the Dog whisperer dude, comes in where others abjectly fail and in a few minutes has the situation in hand.

I expect a $75hr+ CFI to be able to accurately assess a candidates abilities in the intro flight as to whether they have the ability and personal/financial situation in place to allow it to happen. If they assess otherwise, it's up to them right there to disclose it to the candidate. This isn't rocket science, and if they are charging top dollar then this is the standard of ability I expect them to meet. I do not think it is too much to expect full competence and honesty from top of the market people.
 
ARFlyer said:
Our CFIs are payed:

CFI: $17
CFI + 1 (CFII/MEI): $20
CFI & CFII & MEI : $23

I pay $35/hr CFI charge to the FBO. So the FBO takes out +/-$15/hr
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The cost of living varies a great deal between different parts of the country!
 
Henning, you make a good point.
Ron, that might be just a tad over dramatic. I suspect a lot of mistakes are made by all pilots and many, many more by new pilots that do not lead to death and destruction. If you can teach a primary pilot to always make the correct choice and execute all manuvers perfect then I suggest that $80/hr is way too cheap for you.
Whether it is fair or not, instructing is entry level into a career in flying. It is like flipping burgers in the food service business. You are going to have a hard time making a living flipping burgers. On the other hand many "servers" in up scale resturants make a very good living. The requirements for being an instructor are just simply quite low. However, if you want to fly a lear 60 for a fortune 500 company your training and experience is going to be a lot higher. In fact I doubt they will even care if you have an instructor rating.
Like flipping hamburgers primary instruction is a poor career choice. Is it fair? I don't know. Maybe we should encourge McDonalds to double the price of their hamburgers so the flippers can make a career of it. Plumbing is a career, auto mechanic is a career, a medical doctor is a profession. Do you realy think that the requirements to be a CFI are as high as a doctor, how about a mechanic? My son spent 20 months full time in training to get an entry level as an auto mechanic. He makes a descent living now. However, if he takes longer than ther book says, he makes less, if he finishes quicker he gets more. Work comes back, he gets to do it again for free. If we want primary instructing to be a good career choice then yes it will need to be at least $80/hr most likely more than that. That will of course kill GA but at least the instructor when he is working is getting a living wage. The only way I see for a change is to sell the PPL for a set fee, perhaps $30K and then pay the instructor a living wage to get the job done. If he does not get the job done on time, he can do it over for free or another instructor is waiting to take his job. Introduce competition. For now, instructing is what it is. Poorly paid, entry level professional flying job used mostly as a stepping stone to a flying job that will pay the bills. Tough world.
 
It seems to me that the answer to the OP's question can only be found in what other instructors are making in the same area. The free market doesn't care whether we think people are worth what they're making.
 
Palmpilot said:
The OP was talking about San Carlos, but it's almost as high, at $106,021.
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You're right. It was Henning who was talking about Palo Alto.

If the CFI can charge $80/hour and has customers willing to pay it there's nothing wrong with that.
 
ronnieh said:
Ron, that might be just a tad over dramatic.
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Are you willing to be your life on that? If so, y'all have fun. But don't suggest that being a CFI is no more worthy of remuneration than flipping burgers at Mickey D's, because if the FBO is getting $35/hour, the CFI is getting about half of that, and it's almost impossible to give more than about 1000 hours of flight training in a single year.
 
Yes I am. My primary instructor had little to do with me staying alive while I learned to fly over the past 30 years.
It may be worth more than flipping burgers. I made no judgement. I said if, I repeat IF flight instruction is to be treated as a viable career path, then some changes will have to be made. My suggestion was to make it competative. FBO offers PPL for a fixed fee perhaps $30K. Instructors are paid a living salary just like my son the mechanic. You either perform or you don't survive. Might be other ways this was just one suggestion.
Of course it might be that they will be few customers willing to pay that but, it is a free enterprise system. What you have to sell is worth only what you can get for it. If you can get $80/hr for primary instruction I will be there rooting for you. Just don't complain when the market place will not support your price structure. Simple second grade math.
 
ronnieh said:
If you can get $80/hr for primary instruction I will be there rooting for you.
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I only charge $60/hour, and the rate is the same regardless -- you're paying for me, not the level of training.
Just don't complain when the market place will not support your price structure.
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No complaints so far.
 
ronnieh said:
On the teachers salaries I agree with Ghery. In fact I would say that teachers are some of the most over paid government workers, I mean employees out there. Even $35K per year is pretty good for part time work.
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Keep in mind that around here teachers are paid for 180 days in the classroom. That's 36 weeks. My wife is cooped up with around 30 6th graders. I'm sorry, but you couldn't pay me enough to do that. And let's not get started on the unpaid OT she puts in virtually every night at home dealing with paperwork. Thanks, but I'll stick with my 'full time' engineering job.
 
Palmpilot said:
The OP was talking about San Carlos, but it's almost as high, at $106,021.
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These incomes aren't universal in those areas. The numbers are skewed by 7 and 8 figure incomes in some neighborhoods vs poverty in others.
 
Henning said:
These incomes aren't universal in those areas. The numbers are skewed by 7 and 8 figure incomes in some neighborhoods vs poverty in others.
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It sounds like you're confusing median with mean.

Are you arguing that the San Francisco Peninsula is not among the most expensive places to live in the U.S.? :confused:

San Francisco has the third highest cost of living of major U.S. cities, and it has a considerably lower median income than either Palo Alto or San Carlos.

http://www.kiplinger.com/slideshow/cities-with-most-expensive-cost-of-living-2011/4.html
 
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Palmpilot said:
It sounds like you're confusing median with mean.

Are you arguing that the San Francisco Peninsula is not among the most expensive places to live in the U.S.? :confused:

San Francisco has the third highest cost of living of major U.S. cities, and it has a considerably lower median income than either Palo Alto or San Carlos.

http://www.kiplinger.com/slideshow/cities-with-most-expensive-cost-of-living-2011/4.html
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It is. Are you going to tell me there aren't people living below the poverty line on the SF Peninsula within a few miles of any ultra wealthy neighborhood? I used to live in SF and keep a plane in the Bay Area on less than $40k
 
Henning said:
It is. Are you going to tell me there aren't people living below the poverty line on the SF Peninsula within a few miles of any ultra wealthy neighborhood? I used to live in SF and keep a plane in the Bay Area on less than $40k
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Henning, I would never claim that everyone lives AT the median! What's that got to do with determining the going rate for flight instruction in a particular area?
 
Palmpilot said:
Henning, I would never claim that everyone lives AT the median! What's that got to do with determining the going rate for flight instruction in a particular area?
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Because the reality remains that there are plenty of people right there on a $30k income that would like to fly as well but can't afford the extra $50hr nor the commute to a cheaper airport.
 
Henning said:
Because the reality remains that there are plenty of people right there on a $30k income that would like to fly as well but can't afford the extra $50hr nor the commute to a cheaper airport.
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And I used to be one of them!
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Yikes. Are you willing to drive to save money?
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Kimberly, I don't mind some extra driving.
I actually live nowhere near PAO, I always disliked Peninsula airports because of their tight squeeze and bad traffic (both on the ground and in the air). My first choice would be Hayward, Concord or Livermore. But I am becoming more philosophical - I see that higher instructor fees go together with more modern aircraft inventory. Call me spoiled brat but I want to fly some Cirrus-Perspectives (will settle for Cessna Columbia :wink2:) and choices here are limited. Sure there are many friendly clubs with friendly rates but they don't have stuff I want to fly. The JATO club (the one I had in mind from the beginning) is expanding to Livermore airport and I like combination of aircraft and location and instructor fees are what they are.
 
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olasek said:
Kimberly, I don't mind some extra driving.
I actually live nowhere near PAO, I always disliked Peninsula airports because of their tight squeeze and bad traffic (both on the ground and in the air). My first choice would be Hayward, Concord or Livermore. But I am becoming more philosophical - I see that higher instructor fees go together with more modern aircraft inventory. Call me spoiled brat but I want to fly some Cirrus-Perspectives (will settle for Cessna Columbia :wink2:) and choices here are limited. Sure there are many friendly clubs with friendly rates but they don't have stuff I want to fly. The JATO club (the one I had in mind from the beginning) is expanding to Livermore airport and I like combination of aircraft and location and instructor fees are what they are.
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Oh I didn't know you wanted fancy. I don't know anything about fancy since I'm always looking to save money. My new flight school is cheaper than my original one, but the planes are in much better shape. I pay $80 wet for a 150 if you can believe that!!!
 
Well if you like high instructor fees and fuel surcharges, and a fleet of unusual and awesome aircraft, you won't go wrong with Attitude at LVK.
 
pericynthion said:
Well if you like high instructor fees and fuel surcharges, and a fleet of unusual and awesome aircraft, you won't go wrong with Attitude at LVK.
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+1, if you have the money to spend and want nice planes to fly, go to Livermore, it's always been like that in the Bay Area.
 
SkyHog said:
I'm assuming you're a CFI??

Anything over $35, and you're being robbed.
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Yet Golf instructors who paid a lot less for their qualification and aren't teaching you how to do something that could potentially kill you can charge up to $100/hour? I gladly paid my primary/Instrument and Commercial CFI $48/Hour (all went directly to him since he's independent) because he provided good instruction. I personally charge the same for any free lance instruction I give in addition to the full-time instruction I give out of a flight school (where I do not see all of the money the student pays per hour).
 
Henning said:
At PAO I got charged instructor time at $75hr while I was filling out over 2 hrs worth of needless documents then proceeded with the most excessive checkout I have ever experienced so I would "know the Bay Area airspace".:mad: I'd drop a bomb on that place if I had the opportunity.
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I heard of an instructor that does 2 hours of ground for a 172 checkout. What he can possibly cover in 2 hours is anyones guess...
 
Depends on the value you receive.

I know a few CFIs who would be a bargain at twice that rate.

I have had the misfortune of flying with one or two who weren't worth $0.80/hr, let alone $80.

Price is not the same thing as value. Think about it.......:wink2:
 
n12365 said:
At JYO (Washington DC area), I pay $68/hour for instruction with Aviation Adventures.
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Hopefully Adventures has a better class of instructors now that they are at JYO.
When they were over at VKX you cloud learn such great things from them like:

1. How to kick people out of their tie down spots.
2. How to taxi your 172 into show quality warbirds
3. How to leave your plane blocking the fuel pumps for extended times between lessons.
 
LearDriver said:
Examiners in Los Angeles have have leveled their rates at $500 for a check ride. At that rate $85 per hour sounds reasonable for a quality CFI.
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I payed $600 for my CFI Initial in Las Vegas. DEs in ABQ generally charge around $300.
 
GCA319 said:
I payed $600 for my CFI Initial in Las Vegas. DEs in ABQ generally charge around $300.
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I think I paid like $200 or so back in 2004 in ABQ. $300 sounds like a reasonable increase.

Still overpriced, but what can you do?
 
Late to the party, I should mention that at my school, instructors all charge $25/hour. I think that is outrageous, and that they should be paid more. Most of them do it because they like to fly, I think. My total cost of dual instruction in a 152 is about $90/hour.
 
ChrisK said:
Late to the party, I should mention that at my school, instructors all charge $25/hour. I think that is outrageous, and that they should be paid more. Most of them do it because they like to fly, I think. My total cost of dual instruction in a 152 is about $90/hour.
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Dear Chris,

You suck.

Love,

Kimberly

PS - My dual in the 150, at the new school, if you are a club member or keep money on account is:

54 CFI
80 150
4 Fuel surcharge

So 138 per hour.

Without discounts I believe the CFI rate and plane rate jump 10 bucks, so 158 per hour then.

And at my old school, even more, for the 152 (after PPL):

90 plane
14 fuel surcharge (15%)
64 CFI

So - 168 non-club or 148 club.
 
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