excessive instructor fees?

[pericynthion]

I can recommend the Alameda Aero Club at OAK. Limited fleet (2 172s and a nice PA28) but friendly atmosphere and reasonable rates.

 

[SkyHog]

No, I'm not a CFI. I am a professional, however, and respect paying a professional an appropriate wage for the services they provide. Someone who is helping to ensure that I am properly trained and current to safely fly myself and my family is worth a lot to me.

$35/hr, when $10-$20/hr of it goes to the FBO, doesn't represent a reasonable wage for a professional CFI. The problem is that many CFIs don't consider themselves professionals.

I was living just fine on less than $15/hour. You're saying that they could be making up to $25/hr, and that's just not reasonable?

I was able to get my PPL a mere 8 years ago on that salary. That should say quite a bit.

 

[SkyHog]

BTW, the point behind "more than $35 is a ripoff" is that yes - some instructors may be worth more money, but if you are looking for a basic instructor that can do the job just fine and get you where you need to go, and you don't care about the "Awesomeness" that a particular instructor can impart, then you should be able to find someone that will do it for $35/hr.

Now, if I were going for something specific - say upset training, or tailwheel training, or something that contains a specialty, I'd be willing to pay more (to an extent...I'd never pay a CFI $80/hr).

But really, guys, the PPL should be so damned easy to teach (even with all the fluff the FAA has added to the real required skills), that charging much more than $35 seems kind of odd, unless you really think you can teach steep turns better than another instructor...

 

[Jeff Oslick]

unless you really think you can teach steep turns better than another instructor...

Any instructor can teach steep turns, sure, but an experienced instructor can impart additional knowledge through their experience, can better help a student efficiently through a "rough" patch in training, and better train a pilot for "real world" flying (like ADM for weather, more knowledge of the aircraft systems).

The CFII who did my instrument instruction was a 1,400-hr pilot (he got his ATP a year later when he was my Comm-ASEL instructor) who had hundreds of hours of his time in night and IMC in singles and light twins flying light cargo around California. He was still flying some of these routes while instructing me. He knew, from a good amount of experience, what it took to safely fly a minimally-equipped 152 to ILS minimums and CTL-minimums in fog/overcast with mountains surrounding the approaches. I paid him $35/hour (directly), but that was 10 years ago. I paid him $40/hr the next year getting my Comm. I would have no problem paying him $60-$65/hr now. He was a very good *teacher*, not just a CFI.

Jeff

 

[Jeff Oslick]

I was living just fine on less than $15/hour. You're saying that they could be making up to $25/hr, and that's just not reasonable?

If you feel that being a highly experienced CFI is monetarily limited to an entry to lower-mid level professional salary, you're right, that is not reasonable.

I started flying 20 years ago, and at the time I knew I had an incredibly good deal with a highly experienced ATP CFI for only $19/hr - which would be about $32-$35/hr today. He made a couple bucks an hour off me on the plane rental too, I think. That was in a modest cost of living area of the country.

I'm not saying you can't find a good, or even very good, instructor for $35/hr, but at that rate you will often find yourself sampling from the least-experienced instructor pool. In more expensive areas of the country it could be nearly impossible to find an instructor working for that rate.

 

[jesse]

I was living just fine on less than $15/hour. You're saying that they could be making up to $25/hr, and that's just not reasonable?

I was able to get my PPL a mere 8 years ago on that salary. That should say quite a bit.

It's pretty damn hard for a CFI at $25/hr to bill enough hours in a year to even come close to what you were making with your $15/hr full time job.

It also takes considerably more effort and financial investment to become a flight instructor then it does to man a Comcast call center.

 

[Henning]

If all the instructor has to give is PTS stuff they are worth minimum pay. If they have more they can be worth more.

 

[SkyHog]

If all the instructor has to give is PTS stuff they are worth minimum pay. If they have more they can be worth more.

That is my exact point. But, it should be stressed that not every student pilot needs "more," if they can fly a plane to PTS without much effort and plan on flying for fun, not for a profession.

 

[gprellwitz]

It's pretty damn hard for a CFI at $25/hr to bill enough hours in a year to even come close to what you were making with your $15/hr full time job.

It also takes considerably more effort and financial investment to become a flight instructor then it does to man a Comcast call center.

And don't forget that his $15/hr job actually paid more like $30/hr when benefits, insurance, employer's portion of tax, etc. are factored in. On top of your point about one being a guaranteed number of hours per week and the other being variable.

Around here, instructor rates are in the $35 - $60/hr range. Now, specialized instruction (think aerobatic or L39 jet) can be $125 to $150/hr.

 

[SkyHog]

It also takes considerably more effort and financial investment to become a flight instructor then it does to man a Comcast call center.

Valid....but no more valid than the accountant that makes $35,000 with a CPA (that's approximately $16/hr).

Or how about a copy writer, who makes around $38,000 a year after a 4 year degree (~$18/hr)

Or we can get more accurate and look at similar jobs:
Student Driving instructor - $18/hr
SCUBA Instructor - $16/hr
Tennis Instructor - $11/hr

Fact of life: teachers, in every industry, are paid less than they think they are worth. But in reality, they are paid what the market will bear. Do you really think that a flight instructor is worth more money than a school teacher? Because most High School and Middle School Teachers are making about $35,000 a year, and they're not working one on one with a student, they are responsible for a lot of students throughout an entire school day.

 

[bluee]

Where I live, tennis instructors charge $50/hour, the same as my CFII.

I now know the difference between an okay instructor and a very good instructor. I had a just okay not great I wish I never met him PP instructor who charged $50/hour, the going rate. Then I looked for a CFII, and I really like the one I have now. He knows so much more, and is so much better at imparting that knowledge, I am so kicking myself I didn't find him sooner. He charges the same $50/hour.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

Dude, I know where you were. Probably that place at San Carlos airport where I took my Knowledge Exam. They charged me $50 more than anywhere else, flaked on my "appointment" and the guy tried to "coach" and "flirt" until I made him leave the room.

Run away.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

I'm assuming you're a CFI??

Anything over $35, and you're being robbed.

Where are you getting your information? I've called just about every airport in the Bay Area, and here is what I've found:

$49 (primary training, join a club, pay monthly dues to get the discount) - $75 (the same CFI who charged me $49). But I've NEVER heard of $80.

Anything (including checkouts) above primary training and outside a club, expect about $55 - $65 per hour.

Joining sometimes gets you discounts, saving you $10 per hour on CFI's.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

Actually, I did see some for "cheap".

See here:

http://www.oaklandflyers.com/instructors/

Note I posted about them when I was a student and the lowest was $35 - I see the same CFI's now charge $40 less than a year later.

 

[olasek]

But I've NEVER heard of $80.

Actually the roster of flight instructors associated with the West Valley Flying Club (readily available on internet) shows at least 3 instructors above the $80 rate, Max Trescott is at $90 and John Otte at $100. And there are quite a few in the $75-$80 range.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

Actually the roster readily available on internet of flight instructors associated with the West Valley Flying Club shows at least 3 instructors above the $80 rate, Max Trescott is at $90 and John Otte at $100. And there are quite a few in the $75-$80 range.

Yikes. Are you willing to drive to save money? It is not that much everywhere.

 

[Palmpilot]

Yikes. Are you willing to drive to save money? It is not that much everywhere.

Everything tends to be more expensive on the Peninsula. In addition to the link I posted earlier for West Valley's instructor rates, the FBOs on the field have rates in the same ballpark:

http://www.advantage-aviation.com/faa_instructors.php
http://www.advantage-aviation.com/pt_instructors.php
http://www.advancedflyers.com/instructors/
http://www.flysundance.org/cfi_frame.php

I think it has to do with the price of real estate, and salary levels generally in Silicon Valley.

 

[Henning]

Everything tends to be more expensive on the Peninsula. In addition to the link I posted earlier for West Valley's instructor rates, the FBOs on the field have rates in the same ballpark:

http://www.advantage-aviation.com/faa_instructors.php
http://www.advantage-aviation.com/pt_instructors.php
http://www.advancedflyers.com/instructors/
http://www.flysundance.org/cfi_frame.php

I think it has to do with the price of real estate, and salary levels generally in Silicon Valley.

Not like their planes are anything to write home about and their maint/squawk resolution is a bit lacking. The random 'hard left turn' autopilot had been on the squawk sheet for several months when I added my signature. Worse, this plane was available as IFR and the AP was not placarded INOP.

 

[ronnieh]

I know better than to get into this but, oh well. I am with Nick on this one. I got severly flamed a while back on a thread about flight instructors. I still maintain that CFI's are not teaching brain surgery. You are trying to learn enough to pass a private check ride. A skill that should take 20-30 hours of dual and perhaps that much ground instruction.
How many hours of training (including study for the written) does it take to be a CFI? How many hours of training does it take to be an RN, or second grade teacher, or a paramedic and this list goes on ad nauseam. There are many experienced CFI's out there, so what. The experience may get you bragging rights but the primary student only needs to learn how to get a single engine, low performance, non complex airplane around the pattern and fly to PTS standards. $35/hr is plenty to charge for that. It is just not that big of a deal. No cape, no tights, just your basic monkey see, monkey do. Ok, flame suit is secure, have at it.

 

[dmccormack]

I know better than to get into this but, oh well. I am with Nick on this one. I got severly flamed a while back on a thread about flight instructors. I still maintain that CFI's are not teaching brain surgery. You are trying to learn enough to pass a private check ride. A skill that should take 20-30 hours of dual and perhaps that much ground instruction.
How many hours of training (including study for the written) does it take to be a CFI? How many hours of training does it take to be an RN, or second grade teacher, or a paramedic and this list goes on ad nauseam. There are many experienced CFI's out there, so what. The experience may get you bragging rights but the primary student only needs to learn how to get a single engine, low performance, non complex airplane around the pattern and fly to PTS standards. $35/hr is plenty to charge for that. It is just not that big of a deal. No cape, no tights, just your basic monkey see, monkey do. Ok, flame suit is secure, have at it.

No one is forcing you to pay more than .35 cents an hour.

But -- you get what you pay for.

Here's another truth: No one gets paid what they're "Worth" (this is handy code for government determination of relative value).

People get paid based on supply (lots of teachers? lower pay) and demand (need people who know how to correctly manipulate complex financial transactions? higher pay).

In some areas there are lots of available CFIs who don't care how much they get paid.

Supply is high, demand is moderate -- pay is low.

In other areas, demand is high, supply is low thus higher rates.

Aviation labor rates are kept artificially low because there is a large supply of people willing to fly for nearly nothing, while the demand is -- at best -- moderate.

 

[cirrusmx]

Expensive is when you don't get the value worth out of your money. ie, I pay 30 for an instructor and he is a completely jack ass and doesn't teach anything that add to my skills. EXPENSIVE. On the other hand, I pay 80 for an instructor that is a two war veteran pilot, gold seal CFI, freight dog, 777 captain, commander of the space shuttle, and above all an eloquent teacher, well I would say thats cheap. Its all relative and directly proportional to value.

 

[ronnieh]

Dan' I agree. Not much to add.
Cirrus, let's see, the goal is to teach a person enough to pass the check ride. IOW, teach a person to fly to PTS for the PPL. Other than some fascinating war stories (for which you pay the hourly rate to listen) how does being a two war veteran ( do you mean flying F 16's or working in the chow hall) freight dog (good for instrument instruction, maybe), a 777 captain (not a clue how that helps) and a commander of the space shuttle (no comment) how do these attributes make for a better instructor. Perhaps an instructor with a few hundred hours of instruction might be an advantage. How mjuch more does an RN with six months work experience get than one fresh out of school. How about the para medic.
As Dan said pick what you want to pay and go for it. Nobody is forcing anybody to pay twice what an instructor is worth.
Edit: Don't know what the gold seal brings to the table.

 

[Henning]

Expensive is when you don't get the value worth out of your money. ie, I pay 30 for an instructor and he is a completely jack ass and doesn't teach anything that add to my skills. EXPENSIVE. On the other hand, I pay 80 for an instructor that is a two war veteran pilot, gold seal CFI, freight dog, 777 captain, commander of the space shuttle, and above all an eloquent teacher, well I would say thats cheap. Its all relative and directly proportional to value.

Only if they are actively passing on that experience, ability and eloquence while they are charging you for it. If they bring nothing more to that hour than the $30hr jackass, they are an even bigger ripoff.

My best instructor was my CFII for $30hr and he came with a wet 172 for that. Military->Corporate pilot in the 30,000hr range. 3 others were WWII pilots who didn't charge me (one of them paid me since he was training me to do a job for him).

What you spend is not a true sign of the quality you'll receive; some of the 'names' that go with those high prices earn it, many do not.

Any instructor charging > than $35hr though should be good enough that they guaranty completion in minimum instruction time listed in FAR 61. Any instruction time and half the plane time greater than that is on them. If they wanna claim they're better than the rest, they need to prove it.

 

[matthammer]

Any instructor charging > than $35hr though should be good enough that they guaranty completion in minimum instruction time listed in FAR 61. Any instruction time and half the plane time greater than that is on them. If they wanna claim they're better than the rest, they need to prove it.

Anyone who's instructed knows that that is simply not a realistic guarantee. Actually, if someone had guaranteed me that back when I started training, I would probably have written them off as a pencil whipper.

 

[cirrusmx]

Well, experience can always bring added value to the cockpit, such as real life flying situations and how they got resolved, airmanship, tricks of the trade, and other knowledge that can basically only be learned through many hours of flying. A pilot with a proven track of flying must be doing something correctly and can possibly transmit that knowledge if he is a good instructor. I just mentioned all those hypothetical CFI traits as opposed to the unproven, ink wet on the certificate, no teaching ability yet 80 dollar type of CFI to demonstrate my point that expensiveness is not the quantity of dollars you pay, but the quality you get.

The CFI goal should never be just about flying to PTS standards and Pass the checkride. If something that's only doing the minimum and expect no more than to pay the minimum. You can pass the written, practical and still don't know much at all and be a terrible pilot. PTS and for that matter regulations does not mean a competent and safe pilot. Again, another example where you can gauge the value of what you are paying the instructor.

 

[Henning]

Anyone who's instructed knows that that is simply not a realistic guarantee. Actually, if someone had guaranteed me that back when I started training, I would probably have written them off as a pencil whipper.

It is not ridiculous if they are $90hr competent because they will know immediately which ones they will not be able to get done and they will not milk 120hrs out of them on the way to PP. I'm sick of seeing **** poor CFIs who can't teach to save their lives milking students, that's another side to this CFI dice that needs to be addressed: If a student has gone beyond the FAA time slot, then a third party evaluation should be done to determine the problem to address before anymore paying is done. There are as many crappy CFIs as crappy students out there and both should be restricted to non commercial ops.

 

[matthammer]

It is not ridiculous if they are $90hr competent because they will know immediately which ones they will not be able to get done and they will not milk 120hrs out of them on the way to PP. I'm sick of seeing **** poor CFIs who can't teach to save their lives milking students, that's another side to this CFI dice that needs to be addressed: If a student has gone beyond the FAA time slot, then a third party evaluation should be done to determine the problem to address before anymore paying is done. There are as many crappy CFIs as crappy students out there and both should be restricted to non commercial ops.

The FAA minimum hours are simply that, the minimum hours required. It's not meant to be the standard for when "most students" will be ready for their checkride. It's meant to prevent CFIs from cutting students loose before they're really ready. That said, I agree that milking students for extra cash is a bad thing. If it's clear that a student is no longer progressing with a CFI, then a second opinion is absolutely in order.

 

[jsstevens]

If all you want is to learn how to fly to PTS standards, have at the $35/hr person.

My primary instructor had ~9000 hours. He was in his 70's and had learned to fly in the 1940's. What I got from him that I consider priceless had everything to do with ADM. There were gems buried in everyday conversation. One night flight I turned down the wrong taxiway and almost got trapped between a row of parked planes and a row of light poles. His comment? "If you have a choice, hit the poles. They're much cheaper." Amusing, and while not a safety of flight issue, still eminently practical advice.

There were countless variations of "I've tried that and here's why I wouldn't try it again."

He taught me to fly the ILS into our home 'drome because "When it's hazy I don't want you stuck out here." I've since seen days when I could not find the runway in the haze until I was close to 3 miles from it. But I can always find it.

He taught me how to get a plane down from altitude and quickly, but safely, on the ground in case of fire. Not in the PTS standards and I hope I never need it, but I'm glad I know and have practiced it.

I learned that there would be clear air over the big lake a few miles from the field even on low overcast days. Also a lot of weather observation and prediction based on having watched the weather (in our area) for decades.

Learning to fly a plane, in my experience, involved maybe 30% how to do it when things go right, 50% what to do when things don't go right and 20% ADM - but that's misleading. Because the ADM was happening all the time I trained. I don't think I would've gotten that from somebody who hadn't had the experience my flight instructor had.

In my opinion, that part that is missing from the "Only have to learn to fly to the PTS" camp is the ADM.

John

 

[Henning]

The FAA minimum hours are simply that, the minimum hours required. It's not meant to be the standard for when "most students" will be ready for their checkride. It's meant to prevent CFIs from cutting students loose before they're really ready. That said, I agree that milking students for extra cash is a bad thing. If it's clear that a student is no longer progressing with a CFI, then a second opinion is absolutely in order.

The reality is though for a dedicated student of modest intelligence it is an achievable standard that is met every day and even in less time at the 141 schools.

There are 4 potential issues that take it over 40. Lack of ability and/or dedication of the part of the instructor and lack of ability and/or dedication on the part of the student.

The issue should be clarified and open on the table before going forward from 40. If the student knows it's that they haven't been putting in the time & effort required to make it in 40 for whatever reason and is good with continuing, fine, all is well. Such a system would eliminate many tale of woe threads from 100hr pre solo students.

 

[ARFlyer]

So I can see that $50/hour (which sounds like $2,000 per week or over $100k/year) easily translating into about $35-$40k, which would probably qualify them for food stamps. I think most CFIs are drastically underpaid. I congratulate those that are able to charge appropriately.

Our CFIs are payed:

CFI: $17
CFI + 1 (CFII/MEI): $20
CFI & CFII & MEI : $23

I pay $35/hr CFI charge to the FBO. So the FBO takes out +/-$15/hr

 

[ronnieh]

I am not quite with Henning but, he makes a good point. At $80/hr I would want some guarentees. A "not to exceed" for example.
Tricks of the trade? Guys, we are talking about the "private". There is not that much to know and the instructor does not need to know much either. Many CFI's do know more than is required. I get that. I have a very good friend that is my go to guy. He has all the ratings, ATP, multiple types, A&P. Has flown everything from a Cub to a CRJ. International flights the whole 9 yards. I get it. Many out there may have similar experience. So what? It does not matter because we are talking about the private student. If you could get your hamburger prepared by a brain surgeon would you pay $30 for the Big Mac. Conversely I don't want brain surgery done on me by the local burger flipper, even if he is a lot cheaper. You are saying the impressive credentials are worth a lot more when all you want is a big mac.
My friend mentioned above is the one I want in the right seat if I am transitioning from a piston twin to a turbine. I do not need his expertise for the private pilot training. If you want to pay $80/hr so you can brag that your instructor flew the space shuttle, or dropped bombs on Iraq or had a "gold seal" that is fine. Instructors need to charge every dime they can get. It is not a charity.
Look, the bar is so low for the private it is hard to make a profession out of teaching at that level. It is just that simple. I get flamed for implying that instructors don't know anything. New ink wet instructors don't know much, at least from the training to be an instructor. Many instructors are very knowledgeable, not because they are instructors but because of their experience. Again my friend would be just as knowledgeable if he dropped his instructor ratings or had never got them. The requirements for a CFI are very low. Does not mean that many instructors are exceptional pilots and perhaps exceptional instructors. It is just not that hard to make a big mac.

 

[Henning]

I am not quite with Henning but, he makes a good point. At $80/hr I would want some guarentees. A "not to exceed" for example.
Tricks of the trade? Guys, we are talking about the "private". There is not that much to know and the instructor does not need to know much either.

I have never met a CFI that charges $80hr for primary flight instruction; and I know some pretty good ones. They typically have a sliding scale starting at a small premium over the local mean for primary and heading up as they are teaching more unique and involved subject matter such as war bird transitions and aerobatics.

If I saw someone charging $80hr for primary, I'd just walk away, this person will have too many issues to be my kind of instructor.

 

[John Collins]

I am not complaining but I don't know of many flight instructors who are in it for the money. Most have ulterior motives such as building time, paying for their own flight time, or just for the love of instructing and flying. As a means of earning a living, I would not recommend flight instructing to any but my worst enemies. The actual hours are long and boring between flights, pay is often based on Hobbs time, not the time that the instructor is scheduled, weather and short winter days interfere with available training time, maintenance and aircraft availability can be issues as well. In my experience, most instructors are only able to charge for half of their time on a good flying day and depending on the geographical part of the country they reside in, much less than that. So an hourly rate of pay for an instructor doesn't translate to an equivalent hourly rate at a steady job. At a hourly rate of $35, one could expect to have a W2 around $20,000 a year, verses a salaried position would yield over $70,000. So it is unfair to just look at hourly rates, not many on POA would trade their job for being an instructor.

Flight schools and aircraft rental are a poor business to be in. If you own your own airplanes, it is almost impossible to make a profit. To make a go of it, someone needs to subsidize the operation. One of the most common ways is to use lease back aircraft where the owner of the aircraft undoubtedly takes a loss and strictly speaking will not have a return on their investment. Again the only reason that such an owner is willing to submit to this is that they don't look at the lease back arrangement as a money making proposition but often think of it in terms of reducing their cost of ownership and operation.

So, you drive up in your BMW or Mercedes, check out the car of your instructor. In my day it used to be a 10 year old Pinto.

 

[Everskyward]

Remember we are talking about Palo Alto where the median income is pretty high, as is the cost of living. That means that people are used to both paying more and making more.

Estimated median household income in 2009: $118,989 (it was $90,377 in 2000)
Palo Alto: $118,989
California: $58,931

http://www.city-data.com/city/Palo-Alto-California.html#ixzz1nywFVcg8

 

[matthammer]

I am not quite with Henning but, he makes a good point. At $80/hr I would want some guarentees. A "not to exceed" for example.
Tricks of the trade? Guys, we are talking about the "private". There is not that much to know and the instructor does not need to know much either. Many CFI's do know more than is required. I get that. I have a very good friend that is my go to guy. He has all the ratings, ATP, multiple types, A&P. Has flown everything from a Cub to a CRJ. International flights the whole 9 yards. I get it. Many out there may have similar experience. So what? It does not matter because we are talking about the private student. If you could get your hamburger prepared by a brain surgeon would you pay $30 for the Big Mac. Conversely I don't want brain surgery done on me by the local burger flipper, even if he is a lot cheaper. You are saying the impressive credentials are worth a lot more when all you want is a big mac.
My friend mentioned above is the one I want in the right seat if I am transitioning from a piston twin to a turbine. I do not need his expertise for the private pilot training. If you want to pay $80/hr so you can brag that your instructor flew the space shuttle, or dropped bombs on Iraq or had a "gold seal" that is fine. Instructors need to charge every dime they can get. It is not a charity.
Look, the bar is so low for the private it is hard to make a profession out of teaching at that level. It is just that simple. I get flamed for implying that instructors don't know anything. New ink wet instructors don't know much, at least from the training to be an instructor. Many instructors are very knowledgeable, not because they are instructors but because of their experience. Again my friend would be just as knowledgeable if he dropped his instructor ratings or had never got them. The requirements for a CFI are very low. Does not mean that many instructors are exceptional pilots and perhaps exceptional instructors. It is just not that hard to make a big mac.

I'm finding myself coming just shy of agreeing with you. While I agree that becoming a private pilot is far from rocket science, I don't think it's quite as simple as you make it out to be. For the guy who just wants to be able to fly a Cub to survey his farm over the weekend, maybe. But what about the students who plan on using their new certificate for long distance cross countries? They need to be prepared to fly through some of the world's most complex airspace, most dynamic weather, and ultimately they will likely also move up to some fairly high performance aircraft. The modern day private pilot does a whole lot more than buzz around in the traffic pattern. Sure, you could get by by only teaching them the bare minimum that the FAA requires -- but for those guys that really plan to put their certificate to work, that is not enough. I think the FAA's shift in emphasis from the rote performance of maneuvers towards scenario based training is evidence that they recognize this discrepancy between what is legally required and what is actually necessary to make a safe pilot.

 

[Ghery]

Fact of life: teachers, in every industry, are paid less than they think they are worth. But in reality, they are paid what the market will bear. Do you really think that a flight instructor is worth more money than a school teacher? Because most High School and Middle School Teachers are making about $35,000 a year, and they're not working one on one with a student, they are responsible for a lot of students throughout an entire school day.

Where do you get the figure for "most...teachers"? Granted, my wife has been at it for 20 years and has a Masters, along with a boatload of other post graduate education, so she's at the top of the pay scale in her district. However, looking at the district's current budget (available on-line) the low end of teachers' salaries (at all level, K-12) is $33,851 per year. It goes up with each year of experience up to 10 years and there are additional adjustments for education level. In addition, there are additional extra jobs they get paid for. So, unless you are suggesting that most teachers are just starting out (bad assumption in this district) I think you'll find teachers are doing a bit better than $35k per year.

Or are you saying that ours are doing particularly well?

 

[ronnieh]

I don't disagree with you Henning. I was just thinking that a guarentee of a 40 hour ticket might be a bit much. However, your last statement is spot on. $80/hr, "have a nice day"
John has pretty much summed up the situation. As I stated making a career out of teaching primary students is very iffy. There are more than one reason but one main reason is it just does not require much expertise and therefore has less value than is required for a professional career.
This is one reason that instructing is so often used as a stepping stone.

One can be a proficient, competent pilot and an instructor. One can be a proficient and competent pilot and not be an instructor. Being a competent and proficient pilot does not make you an instructor. Being an instructor does not make you a competent and proficient pilot. One does not have to be a competent and proficient pilot to be an instructor. An instructor must be able to teach an individual to PTS. A low bar.
Is there a better way, I don't have a clue. Every time we get into this discussion the fresh private pilots and new or low time instructors get their nickers in a wad and the discussion goes down hill quickly. I guess we all have a oppinion.

 

[ronnieh]

On the teachers salaries I agree with Ghery. In fact I would say that teachers are some of the most over paid government workers, I mean employees out there. Even $35K per year is pretty good for part time work.

 

[poadeleted20]

I still maintain that CFI's are not teaching brain surgery.

You're right -- we are, in effect, teaching you how to do brain surgery on yourself. We're giving you the knowledge and skills necessary to operate an airplane in an extremely hostile environment where any failure of that knowledge or skill can kill you instantly, and unlike driving a car, you can't just hit the brake and stop until you get things together. Folks pay $50-100 for a half hour with a golf or tennis pro, where failure only costs you a few bucks to your playing partner, not your life. Plumbers get $100/hour and the worst that happens is you have to go next door to use your neighbor's toilet. Even your auto mechanic costs you about $85/hour, and if s/he screws up, odds are you can pull over and stop without getting hurt -- not so in an airplane. OTOH, you pay $75 and up for 5-10 minutes with a doctor -- that's $500/hour or more.

If golf and tennis pros and plumbers are worth that when your life is not at stake, then a flight instructor in whose hands you are (as with a doctor) putting your life ought to be worth more than $35 per hour to you. If not, well, you'll get what you paid for -- not much.

 

[Everskyward]

Typical fees for golf lessons.

http://fitness.costhelper.com/golf-lessons.html

Typical costs:
Fees average $50 to $60 for a 30- to 45-minute private lesson. Instructors sometimes offer hour-long sessions for $75 to $90, which is a better overall value. There is usually no cost break for children's lessons.
Instructors typically reduce fees by 15 percent or more if golfers buy a bundle of lessons, usually offered in groups of six. Golfers can buy a package of six 30-minute lessons for about $250 ($42 per session) or six hour-long classes for $375 ($62.50 per session.)