EV vs ICE the real cost to individuals. N/A

[MauleSkinner]

Depending upon the assumptions.

That's at 7,400 miles per year; according to that article. The average in the US is 14,263 miles per year

I’d bet that the average for EVs will be the low side of the US average and gas/diesel will be on the high side, at least for a while. Sounds to me like the range capabilities of EVs isn’t high enough to do a lot of the heavy driving that brings those averages up.

 

[wayne]

I’d bet that the average for EVs will be the low side of the US average and gas/diesel will be on the high side, at least for a while. Sounds to me like the range capabilities of EVs isn’t high enough to do a lot of the heavy driving that brings those averages up.

Probably. Plus many will have an EV and an ICE car. If you want to drive the super long trip you could take the ICE car. Short of needing to take something that won't fit in the plane I won't be doing that.

I definitely pull the average miles/year down.

Commuting distance is a big contributor for many. I have coworkers with long commutes, well at least pre-pandemic; we're still working remotely. My annual mileage has always been low, and now it's really low. My wife used to put lots of miles on her car, but that was driving around meeting with customers; she was a client manager. Between not visiting customers in the pandemic and retiring in August her mileage is way down as well. None of her work related driving would have exceeded any of the EV's range other than the old Leaf models that were around 100 miles or less.

If we're going far we fly, private or commercial. When all three kids were at home and we'd go to Florida for a week, bringing everything but the kitchen sink, we took the minivan. Outside of that we flew. Now that the kids are out of college and working we rarely drive anywhere outside of the metro Atlanta area.

For my typical driving I'd only have to recharge one a week at most. That would be just charging to 80% and I wouldn't even be low when I plugged it in if I did it that frequently. I'd probably do it more often just because I could, but I wouldn't have to do it.

 

[Larry in TN]

Add to that the environmental cost of the battery replacement and recycling, which probably is needed a lot sooner than 9 years / 70K miles...

The design life of the current Tesla battery pack is 300,000 to 500,000 miles. The upcoming 4680 battery has a design life of 1,000,000 miles.

The majority of Teslas are less than four years old. The mass market Model 3 was introduced in mid-2017. The high-time cars are the relatively few Model S, and some early Model X, cars. The oldest of which are approaching their end of their tenth year in service.

The batteries, and battery management systems, have improved a lot over the past ten years but those oldest cars have done well, even the very high mileage cars. There have been a few battery failures but not many. Car engine and transmissions have a failure rate, too, when you put a couple hundred thousand miles on the fleet. The high-milage batteries have experienced relatively low degradation.

The battery and powertrain (motors) warranty on my car is 8 years or 120,000 miles.

EVs are a great idea for New York City, not so much for Wyoming or even western New York state.

Not sure why you say that. If I'm taking a road trip, I'm taking my EV and leaving the ICE cars at home. I have needed public chargers twice in the past five months. For all my daily driving, I charge at home.

I'll attached an imagine of a charger map from PlugShare.com of western NY state. This is mapping only chargers compatible with my Tesla and more will appear if you zoom in. Orange pins are Tesla Superchargers. Green are destination chargers. Tesla is in the process of tripling the Supercharger network

The vast majority of the charging happens at night, when power companies have lots of excess capacity.

And, when a utility is reaching its limits during peak times, they can establish off-peak discounts which EVs can easily be programmed to use which will shift even more EV charging to off-peak times.

 

[Bob Noel]

The design life of the current Tesla battery pack is 300,000 to 500,000 miles. The upcoming 4680 battery has a design life of 1,000,000 miles.
...

design life is one thing. real world experience is another.

we will see if the design life bears any resemblence to reality. I'm not saying it won't, but I've seen waaaaay too many designs that don't make it in the real world.

 

[Larry in TN]

design life is one thing. real world experience is another.

There are a good number of older cars over 200,000 miles and some fleet vehicles over 300,000. Battery performance has been very good. What evidence do you have that this will change as the newer, more advanced battery packs with better battery management systems age?

 

[Huckster79]

I feel like this is a poor analogy. In the early 1900s, you could have also made your bet on one of the electrical vehicle manufacturers of the time. And you would have lost your money as they went out of business.

true too to a degree I’d say. Fords wife drive an EV… There’s potential to lose every bet- but I’d bet there were folks at the time that swore up n down cars wouldn’t catch on and that horses would remain the mainstay…

 

[Velocity173]

Tesloop has cars approaching 400,000 miles running on their original batteries. Their first car (Model S 85D) went 194,000 miles with abusive (100% to 0) charging practices. Even then, the battery was still useable, it would quit at 50 miles of remaining range so Tesla replaced it for free. Obviously there’s degradation involved but not that surprising considering the number of miles driven.

https://www.findmyelectric.com/blog/how-long-does-a-tesla-battery-last/

 

[Huckster79]

Their bet is based on what they expect the government to do.

That’s an assumption… It may be true and likely Is to a degree… however to assume it’s mostly that and not a capitalistic vision is quite a leap as well.. I doubt they would put ALL their eggs in a basket based on gov’t as it can change… So yes to a degree, but to what degree none of us know for certain… But I’d wager to say a majority of it is they see that’s where they’ll be able to make its most profit regardless. That either they can lead the world or let non-American companies be the leader of it…. Their bet right now is to not be in a spot to play catch up. My wager is always with innovation, especially American Innovation.

 

[wayne]

And, when a utility is reaching its limits during peak times, they can establish off-peak discounts which EVs can easily be programmed to use which will shift even more EV charging to off-peak times.

One can only hope.

Georgia Power has an EV rate, but I don't think it makes much sense. At least not for me. It does give a super cheap rate at night, but doubles the peak rate in the afternoon during the summer. Guess what we use every afternoon in the summer in Atlanta? Air conditioning. Lots and lots of air conditioning. If we use the oven for cooking dinner it would fall in that time slot too.

The EV on-peak rate is 20¢ / kWh in the afternoons, 2pm - 7pm, during the summer. Normal residential rates in the summer are 5.8¢ / kWh for the first 650 kWh, then 9.7¢ / kWh for 650 - 1000, then 10¢ / kWh for all over 1000. So the on-peak is double the highest normal rate.

The EV off-peak rate is 7¢ / kWh which is slightly above the first 650 kWh rate and slightly below the 650 - 1000 kWh rate in the summer. Unfortunately it's above the highest rate in the winter which is the first 650 kWh at 5.9¢ kWh. So all winter long I'll pay more for power.

The EV super off-peak is only 1¢ / kWh, which is great, but it's only in the middle of the night 11 pm - 7 am. There might be a little AC at night, but not much. No oven, TV, computers or much running at that time. Just the refrigerator, which is often the 2nd biggest electrical consumer after HVAC, and a little AC.

We use 1600 - 1900 kWh each month in the summer. The current billing doesn't show time of day, but I would imagine the 2pm - 7pm time slot is a lot of that power as that's the hottest part of the day. Charging an EV battery is a drop in that bucket. No way I can make that up with their "EV rate" package. I'm better off paying regular rates. I hope they have a better offer in the future. It doesn't even need to be 1¢ / kWh, just a lower rate at night. Just don't jack up the day time rates even higher. Sheesh.

I'd have to do a lot of driving to make up those "savings".

 

[Dana]

The design life of the current Tesla battery pack is 300,000 to 500,000 miles. The upcoming 4680 battery has a design life of 1,000,000 miles.

I didn't know that, good news... if it works out in the real world.

Not sure why you say that. If I'm taking a road trip, I'm taking my EV and leaving the ICE cars at home. I have needed public chargers twice in the past five months.

I was going to ask, but I googled instead... I must admit, Tesla's range is impressive, more than I realized. The recharge time is still a lot longer than refilling a gas tank, though. If they can cut that (and the price) down, ICE will be dead, at least for automobiles.

I really do like the idea of electric cars, piston engines really are absurdly complex... they're just not quite there yet.

 

[Larry in TN]

they're just not quite there yet.

On what do you draw that conclusion?

I don't mean that as a challenge, but you didn't know about the long design life of the batteries and you had to do a search to find out the range.

EVs are different. They're different in a lot of ways that people who haven't paid close attention to them don't know. Road trips will take a little longer, but not much. For the most part, when you're done with the restroom break and grabbing something to eat or drink the cars just about ready to go again. That's the trade-off for never going to the gas station for your daily driving. Your car is charged every morning when you pull out of the garage. Energy costs, when charging at home, are one-quarter to one-third what you'd pay for a similarly-sized ICE vehicle. A "full tank" for my car costs about $8.00.. Charging costs more away from home but it's still noticeably less expensive than gasoline.

I think the biggest thing that determines if someone is ready for EVs is if they can have charging at home. If you live in an apartment without charging you won't be able to take advantage of some of the biggest benefits. More and more complexes are adding chargers so that'll change in time.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

On what do you draw that conclusion?

I don't mean that as a challenge, but you didn't know about the long design life of the batteries and you had to do a search to find out the range.

EVs are different. They're different in a lot of ways that people who haven't paid close attention to them don't know. Road trips will take a little longer, but not much. For the most part, when you're done with the restroom break and grabbing something to eat or drink the cars just about ready to go again. That's the trade-off for never going to the gas station for your daily driving. Your car is charged every morning when you pull out of the garage. Energy costs, when charging at home, are one-quarter to one-third what you'd pay for a similarly-sized ICE vehicle. A "full tank" for my car costs about $8.00.. Charging costs more away from home but it's still noticeably less expensive than gasoline.

I think the biggest thing that determines if someone is ready for EVs is if they can have charging at home. If you live in an apartment without charging you won't be able to take advantage of some of the biggest benefits. More and more complexes are adding chargers so that'll change in time.

Supporting your statements, I'm seeing chargers in hotel parking lots now although I won't claim they are common as yet.

 

[Everskyward]

EVs are a great idea for New York City, not so much for Wyoming or even western New York state.

I think owning an EV would be difficult in NYC. Best for people with garages and 220v available.

 

[Larry in TN]

Supporting your statements, I'm seeing chargers in hotel parking lots now although I won't claim they are common as yet.

When I've looked at some interesting destinations on PlugShare.com, There's always a number of hotel choices with chargers. They're showing up at restaurants, too.

 

[FastEddieB]

Road trips will take a little longer, but not much. For the most part, when you're done with the restroom break and grabbing something to eat or drink the cars just about ready to go again.

Exactly. Just got home from a 1,450 mile FL trip. Supercharged multiple times. Can’t think of a single time we groused, “Damn! Sitting here charging when we’d rather be doing something else”. And we charged more than necessary, due to irrational neophyte range anxiety. Which no doubt we’ll get over.

Trip summary to follow after we get some rest.

 

[Captain]

…they're just not quite there yet.

IMO they are absolutely there. And Tesla being production limited despite price increases, tax incentive expirations, and production doubling year over year would support my position.

I absolutely love my Tesla (used 2019 model S 85D). I drive 90 minutes to MCO and use the super charger for 10 min or so on the way there to hit MCO at 65%. That covers sentry mode (employee lot can be brutal) and my drive hone. Sentry mode burn 2% per day and I want to get home above 10%…ideally closer to 20%.

The rest of the time charging is at home while I sleep. I cant recall the last time I stood in line waiting for someone to buy lottery tickets!

And the car itself is just amazing. More performance than anything ive ever driven before, let alone owned. I can be at a red light and when it turns green be over 50 mph by the other side of the intersection! And the FSD (im not in beta so i just get highway for now) makes that 90 min trip to work breeze. Sit there and monitor just like the plane’s autopilot.

Maintenance? What maintenance? The only fluid to replace is windshield washer fluid and the only thing to wear out is tires. Even the brakes should last 200k miles as you never use mechanical brakes except for emergency stopping and that last 5 mph to stop. The rest is regen braking so no wear and it actually converts that energy back into the battery.

EV batteries will be recycled at end of life to make new batteries so basically the mining efforts will be much reduced once the global conversion is completed… unlike the constant drilling and searching for oil now.

OTA updates? Amazing. The car gets better with age, not worse. Creature comforts like a pin to open the glove compartment, summon mode, sentry mode, fart mode, submarine mode, spotify, dog mode, the app to remote start, turn on climate, sched maintenance, see location, honk the horn / flash lights and frunk are all just icing on the cake.

TLDR. Teslas are there. Theres a reason Tesla owners do all the advertising for Tesla.

 

[Kenny Phillips]

One can only hope.
...
I'd have to do a lot of driving to make up those "savings".

On the other hand, if you want the quickest accelerating production sedan in the world, it's a mouse clicks (and a few months) away, and doesn't burn gasoline.
9.25 seconds as 150 mph, out of the box. Plus take your family on vaca. You'll have a lot of fun with that, and fun costs money (as everyone on these boards knows.)

 

[Albany Tom]

I think owning an EV would be difficult in NYC. Best for people with garages and 220v available.

Owning ANY vehicle in NYC is difficult, or more accurately expensive. But it's a large city (I so want to say "feed lot"), so many of the folks that live there don't find any need to have a vehicle at all. Many don't even have drivers licenses. They just wander around to the different stations where they can get food and entertainment.

 

[Bob Noel]

Your car is charged every morning when you pull out of the garage.

How many people have a garage and actually put the car in it?

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Owning ANY vehicle in NYC is difficult, or more accurately expensive. But it's a large city (I so want to say "feed lot"), so many of the folks that live there don't find any need to have a vehicle at all. Many don't even have drivers licenses. They just wander around to the different stations where they can get food and entertainment.

It's a large city with a decent transit system. When I go there, and a few other places such as Chicago, San Francisco, Boston, Philadelphia and London, UK, I don't need a rental car at all.

How many people have a garage and actually put the car in it?

Raises hand....I do, most of my neighbors do as well. I recognize, though, that some don't have a usable garage. It's a solvable problem, as a first draft, assigned street parking if for no other reason than billing for the electricity used. Alternatively, some sort of metered parking to bill the electricity.

 

[wayne]

How many people have a garage and actually put the car in it?

I'm always surprised when people leave their cars outside. It ages them quicker, and they are more vulnerable to damage, from people breaking windows to steal things in the car to just pure vandalism. I've sold cars and buyers are surprised at how good they look. They were in the garage at home and in a parking deck at work. Not much in the way of sun damage.

It's a large city with a decent transit system. When I go there, and a few other places such as Chicago, San Francisco, Boston, Philadelphia and London, UK, I don't need a rental car at all.

Those are all "old cities" (built before cars) and were big before cars as well. Mass transit works well in those locations as they were built compact to start with as one had to walk everywhere back then. We never get a rental car in those cities either. We only got a rental car for the day in San Francisco to drive out of the city for day trips.

Raises hand....I do, most of my neighbors do as well. I recognize, though, that some don't have a usable garage. It's a solvable problem, as a first draft, assigned street parking if for no other reason than billing for the electricity used. Alternatively, some sort of metered parking to bill the electricity.

I've seen some pop-up chargers (cylinder that goes into the ground/sidewalk when not in use) in articles, for in-town parallel parking locations. Theory being they won't get damaged by bad parkers when lowered. I don't know if they are in production or not. Something along that line with credit card/app payments for the electricity would work in those locations.

The big thing people in apartments need it access to 220v outlets in the parking. Some are starting to offer that. That would let them charge at home, which is one of the big benefits of an EV car. Having to go to a remote location to recharge doesn't help them over an ICE car; plus it takes longer.

 

[JOhnH]

Owning ANY vehicle in NYC is difficult, or more accurately expensive. But it's a large city (I so want to say "feed lot"), so many of the folks that live there don't find any need to have a vehicle at all. Many don't even have drivers licenses. They just wander around to the different stations where they can get food and entertainment.

My SIL has lived in Manhattan for over 30 years (in a tiny rent-controlled apartment). She has never owned a car or had a driver's license, and the same with practically all of her neighbors.
But as I say that, I have to ask myself, where does all that traffic come from if nobody has cars? Sure lots of them are taxisand Ubers, but still . . .

 

[orca64]

The average battery used in an auto contains over twenty pounds of lithium; sixty pounds of nickel; over 40 pounds of manganese; about 30 pounds of cobalt; over 200 pounds of copper, and over 500 pounds of aluminum, steel and other materials, including plastics. Cobalt is considered “conflict” material, mined primarily in the Congo. In order to obtain the pure raw metals alone, nearly 500,000 pounds of earth and sea water must be used or mined, and processed. Electricity is used heavily in this processing, produced almost entirely from fossil fuel use.

These are just some of the embedded costs of producing that “green” EV.

Wind turbines are even more wasteful of raw materials and have a service life of only about twenty years for those huge blades, which then cannot be recycled. We cannot store that power, when produced.

I hope you all might forgive me my skepticism for the deification of the electric vehicle and other “green” technologies.

Our battery technologies are still quite primitive, and very, very costly. They are the Achilles Heel of “green” energy systems.

I think we’d all be better off if we concentrated on readily available, and very clean, fuels like propane and lng.

 

[weilke]

My SIL has lived in Manhattan for over 30 years (in a tiny rent-controlled apartment). She has never owned a car or had a driver's license, and the same with practically all of her neighbors.
But as I say that, I have to ask myself, where does all that traffic come from if nobody has cars? Sure lots of them are taxisand Ubers, but still . . .

Still plenty of people who are willing to pay the eyewatering charges from a full-service parking garage in Manhattan for the privilege of not having to stand in line at Enterprise friday evening. It's a bit pricey to Uber your way to the Catskills or the Hamptons. When I used to live in Brooklyn, there were Manhattanites who paid to keep their car in some warehouse in Brooklyn. If they needed the car, someone would pull it and meet them at the subway station. The other option was to park it in one of the outlying industrial areas that doesn't have 'alternate side parking' so you could leave it parked for a week. But those cars tended to lose wheels, steering wheels, ignition modules and airbags which is kind of a drag.

 

[Kenny Phillips]

The average battery used in an auto contains over twenty pounds of lithium; sixty pounds of nickel; over 40 pounds of manganese; about 30 pounds of cobalt; over 200 pounds of copper, and over 500 pounds of aluminum, steel and other materials, including plastics. Cobalt is considered “conflict” material, mined primarily in the Congo. In order to obtain the pure raw metals alone, nearly 500,000 pounds of earth and sea water must be used or mined, and processed. Electricity is used heavily in this processing, produced almost entirely from fossil fuel use.

These are just some of the embedded costs of producing that “green” EV.

Wind turbines are even more wasteful of raw materials and have a service life of only about twenty years for those huge blades, which then cannot be recycled. We cannot store that power, when produced.

I hope you all might forgive me my skepticism for the deification of the electric vehicle and other “green” technologies.

Our battery technologies are still quite primitive, and very, very costly. They are the Achilles Heel of “green” energy systems.

I think we’d all be better off if we concentrated on readily available, and very clean, fuels like propane and lng.

You know that the math has been done on ICE vs. EV.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

The average battery used in an auto contains over twenty pounds of lithium; sixty pounds of nickel; over 40 pounds of manganese; about 30 pounds of cobalt; over 200 pounds of copper, and over 500 pounds of aluminum, steel and other materials, including plastics. Cobalt is considered “conflict” material, mined primarily in the Congo. In order to obtain the pure raw metals alone, nearly 500,000 pounds of earth and sea water must be used or mined, and processed. Electricity is used heavily in this processing, produced almost entirely from fossil fuel use.

These are just some of the embedded costs of producing that “green” EV.

Wind turbines are even more wasteful of raw materials and have a service life of only about twenty years for those huge blades, which then cannot be recycled. We cannot store that power, when produced.

I hope you all might forgive me my skepticism for the deification of the electric vehicle and other “green” technologies.

Our battery technologies are still quite primitive, and very, very costly. They are the Achilles Heel of “green” energy systems.

I think we’d all be better off if we concentrated on readily available, and very clean, fuels like propane and lng.

You are picking a battery chemistry. Some batteries don't need cobalt, for example. All of those metals can be recycled easier than mining them in the first place.
As for wind turbines, the electricity is sold elsewhere, and we can, if we choose to, store that power. There's a device...let me think of it....called a "battery" that can store energy. They use batteries in the United Kingdom and other places using wind power.
USA Today isn't usually the best source, but they link to other references about windmill blade recycling: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...wind-turbine-blades-out-landfills/8647981002/ It isn't done much, yet, but the USA doesn't yet have many blades that need recycling.

The batteries are certainly good enough now, and better ones coming, hopefully real soon now.

 

[orca64]

Economic and Energy policies must not be predicated upon hope.

 

[orca64]

Unless Tesla is planning to go Old School and start using Edison batteries, Lithium Ion is about the best mass- produced, cost effective battery technology out there. So the physics picks the battery chemistry.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Economic and Energy policies must not be predicated upon hope.

No, I prefer using science, engineering, and factual data.

Unless Tesla is planning to go Old School and start using Edison batteries, Lithium Ion is about the best mass- produced, cost effective battery technology out there. So the physics picks the battery chemistry.

There many types of lithium ion batteries. Some don't use cobalt.

 

[hindsight2020]

Cobalt is considered “conflict” material, mined primarily in the Congo.

I'm glad you brought that up. The sourcing of metals in our global chain right now is replete with human suffering, and as demand for these consumer preferences go viral, the suffering will really intensify. I know american consumers prefer to view things in sterility, but there are costs to convenience and "progress" that are anything but innocent. Blood diamonds abound. And before people get the notion this is reflexive "america bad" rhetoric, the ascending imperial power of China has their hands wrist deep in the business as well, not only as a major producer of rare minerals, but their meddling in South America (Bolivia et al).

I don't have a dog on the front-end EV fight as a perennial/purposeful late adopter to anything consumer culture, but it's a conversation that ought to be encouraged at least.

My hope is that battery engineering will continue to improve so as to not default to the same classist cost-shifting to humanity. Wish in one hand, crap on the other type of thing, I digress.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

I'm glad you brought that up. The sourcing of metals in our global chain right now is replete with human suffering, and as demand for these consumer preferences go viral, the suffering will really intensify. I know american consumers prefer to view things in sterility, but there are costs to convenience and "progress" that are anything but innocent. Blood diamonds abound. And before people get the notion this is reflexive "america bad" rhetoric, the ascending imperial power of China has their hands wrist deep in the business as well, not only as a major producer of rare minerals, but their meddling in South America (Bolivia et al).

I don't have a dog on the front-end EV fight as a perennial/purposeful late adopter to anything consumer culture, but it's a conversation that ought to be encouraged at least.

My hope is that battery engineering will continue to improve so as to not default to the same classist cost-shifting to humanity. Wish in one hand, crap on the other type of thing, I digress.

That's one reason I'm hoping the LiS batteries will be more widely used. It seems to be a better battery that uses more widely available materials. Yes, sourcing of many things seems to involve human suffering.

 

[Captain]

A resource that is quickly and efficiently recycled is exponentialy better than a fuel source that is burned during consumption, screws up the earth whilst airborne, takes thousands of years to be reabsorbed by plants, 100s more years to then decompose and THEN millions of years to be heated and compressed into crude oil to then be discovered, drilled, processed and sold to restart they cycle.

With the worst of the battery materials you mine it, make it, use it, recycle it, use it, recycle it, use it ect. All that can be done several times in a single human lifespan.

And even with that benefit Tesla is reducing greatly the reliance on so called "blood minerals" like cobalt.

 

[dans2992]

If you found good information on that, it would most likely point to EVs not being the panacea they’re advertising.

For performance, ease of use and overall consumer experience, they’re every bit the panacea.

“environmental?” I don’t really care.

 

[FORANE]

Seems like a high wing vs low wing debate.

 

[Albany Tom]

Economic and Energy policies must not be predicated upon hope.

Policies? Hope is one of the better things they're based on. Mostly, they're based on following what's socially popular at the time. Sometimes they're based on fear. Either fear of the unknown, or fear of the people being afraid of the unknown. Greed is always a great motivator, too. Once in a while, they're based on trying to advance a cause for the improvement of the world. For that last group, the real reason usually isn't the stated reason. Actual science and data are probably in the lowest group.

 

[Larry in TN]

How many people have a garage and actually put the car in it?

Well, you don't need a garage, just a place to park where you can bring power. The charging connectors do fine outdoors.

I never understood the folks who use their garages for storage and park outside. I've always fully utilized my garage bays for cars.

I've seen some pop-up chargers (cylinder that goes into the ground/sidewalk when not in use) in articles, for in-town parallel parking locations. ... The big thing people in apartments need it access to 220v outlets in the parking.

I've seen those, online, too. Not sure you need the complexity. You can, and do, have charging stations at the curb just like parking meters.

Apartment buildings can do the outlets or put in charging stations like those on the Blink, Chargepoint, or other networks. Those would even be a revenue source for the building owners. The 240v outlets would likely be cheaper for the residents. The complex could charge a monthly fee for access to avoid the need for metering.

There many types of lithium ion batteries. Some don't use cobalt.

The standard range Model 3 now comes with an LFP battery which is a lithium-iron chemistry. It doesn't have the energy density needed for the longer range models but the LFP chemistry has some other advantages. A big one is that charging daily to 100% doesn't affect it's longevity so that is the norm instead of charging to 80% to 90% daily on the other models. That means that your daily range is about the same as the longer-range models. It negates the LR's range advantage during daily driving but you still have to charge more often on road trips. I'm not sure but I think it also has a better charging curve during DC fast charging.

The 4680 battery is going to be a big improvement and Tesla recently made it's one-millionth 4680 cell. That's only enough for about 1,000 Model Ys so there's still a ways to go on ramping up production. With a million-mile design life, the 4680 packs are going to outlast the cars. When they come out of the cars, they'll go to fixed-based applications where energy density isn't as critical as it is in vehicles.

 

[Rich Holt]

It makes financial sense as I get a $7500 credit from Uncle Sam

I doubt that a car dealer, or the manufacturer for that matter, would allow the consumer to benefit from a government tax credit. That is just a good reason to inflate the price by $7500.
I went about trying to purchase a non-Tesla EV while I living in CA many years back because the state offered an additional $2500 tax credit. I looked at the sales price in San Diego and also across the border in Yuma(no additional $2500 tax credit). The sales price for the SAME car in Yuma was, unsurprisingly, $2500 less than the one offered in San Diego. Weird.

 

[Velocity173]

Another thing to consider. Over half the country has road use charges for EVs. Georgia is around $230. Starts to eat into the savings of EV vs ICE.

 

[schmookeeg]

I doubt that a car dealer, or the manufacturer for that matter, would allow the consumer to benefit from a government tax credit. That is just a good reason to inflate the price by $7500.
I went about trying to purchase a non-Tesla EV while I living in CA many years back because the state offered an additional $2500 tax credit. I looked at the sales price in San Diego and also across the border in Yuma(no additional $2500 tax credit). The sales price for the SAME car in Yuma was, unsurprisingly, $2500 less than the one offered in San Diego. Weird.

Fair argument.

For leases, the $7500 is taken out of the cap cost, and occasionally can push the net lease price below zero (likely not lately, it's been 18 months since I looked -- pre-CV you could literally get paid to lease a Nissan Leaf) -- when there is some sort of national lease "deal", it can make sense to game the system.

For used cars, the sweet spot would be to have owned one prior to a state incentive being published. I did this for our Leaf and was instantly up $2500 in equity.

So in the end, I suppose, buy a car that you like, and if it's EV, maybe you win some government cheese into the bargain?

 

[Larry in TN]

I doubt that a car dealer, or the manufacturer for that matter, would allow the consumer to benefit from a government tax credit. That is just a good reason to inflate the price by $7500.

When Tesla's $7,500 tax credit ran out they lowered the prices of the cars.

Another thing to consider. Over half the country has road use charges for EVs. Georgia is around $230. Starts to eat into the savings of EV vs ICE.

$100, in Tennessee, to make up for to gasoline taxes you aren't paying. Probably a good deal for those who drive an average, or higher, amount of miles. I drive less than average so am probably paying a bit more than I would have paid in gasoline tax.