Ethiopian Airlines Crash; Another 737 Max

[AnthonyS1]

I feel like if it were terrorism some organization would have claimed responsibility by now. Seems like terrorist organizations LOVE to say hey we did that after such attacks. Hopefully the CVR and FDR will give much further insight.

 

[Hawker800]

Reminds Be of another Ethiopian Airline 737 crash.

 

[1RTK1]

Reminds Be of another Ethiopian Airline 737 crash.

That was a cluster, and what was the "go around" mid flight all about.

 

[ircphoenix]

I feel like if it were terrorism some organization would have claimed responsibility by now. Seems like terrorist organizations LOVE to say hey we did that after such attacks. Hopefully the CVR and FDR will give much further insight.

Yup. Doesn't make much sense to have a secret terrorist attack.

 

[Bell206]

if it were terrorism some organization would have claimed responsibility by now

to have a secret terrorist attack.

Unfortunately, not all aircraft that experience a destructive in-flight event are due to nefarious individuals with an agenda. Value Jet, TWA 800, and China Air 611 come to mind. Time will tell.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I feel like if it were terrorism some organization would have claimed responsibility by now.

And the captain probably wouldn't be calling ATC for a return to the field before the bomb went off...

Pretty sure this one is going to be mechanical, and it sure doesn't look good for Boeing right now.

 

[Matthew]

This is claimed to be the impact site:

 

[AKBill]

This is claimed to be the impact site:

Wow....

 

[NoHeat]

Wreckage photos here

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...thiopia-crash-boeing-shares-dip-idUSKBN1QS15F

One of the photos shows a Caterpillar excavator digging, to search for bodies. I suppose that indicates that much of the airframe is buried in the soil.

 

[1RTK1]

Pilots rumor mill now is looking at a CG problem due to cargo loading error..........

 

[Palmpilot]

Recent articles:

Several Boeing 737 Max 8 pilots in U.S. complained about suspected safety flaw

Pilots have reported issues in US with new Boeing jet

Boeing to Make Key Change in 737 MAX Cockpit Software

From the third article:

"U.S. officials have said the federal government's recent shutdown also halted work on the fix for five weeks." ​

 

[Greg Bockelman]

From the third article:

"U.S. officials have said the federal government's recent shutdown also halted work on the fix for five weeks." ​

I wonder why that would be. Did the Government shutdown cause Boeing to shut down also?

 

[Tantalum]

This is claimed to be the impact site:

What's with the perspective? This looks like it was shot tiltshift

 

[Palmpilot]

I wonder why that would be. Did the Government shutdown cause Boeing to shut down also?

From the paragraph immediately preceding the one I quoted:

"A software fix to the MCAS flight-control feature by the FAA and Boeing had been expected early in January, but discussions between regulators and the plane maker dragged on, partly over differences of opinion about technical and engineering issues, according to people familiar with the details. Officials from various parts of Boeing and the FAA had differing views about how extensive the fix should be."
​

It was apparently just bad luck that the discussions mentioned needed to be taking place during the period of the shutdown.

 

[Tj1376]

Recent articles:

Several Boeing 737 Max 8 pilots in U.S. complained about suspected safety flaw

Pilots have reported issues in US with new Boeing jet

Boeing to Make Key Change in 737 MAX Cockpit Software

From the third article:

"U.S. officials have said the federal government's recent shutdown also halted work on the fix for five weeks." ​

The AP news article you linked got their facts wrong from the ASRS report. The copilot reported that the vertical speed reduced to 1200-1500 and he called out descending before the gpws called out DONT SINK. No doubt it nosed over but it never stopped climbing. (Gpws would have called out PULL UP had the aircraft actually been descending.)

The second ASRS report (there are only two post LionAir!!!) is from the exact same flight by the captain. So it’s one occurrence reported by both the first officer and the captain.

The other three reports (five total) complain of 2 pilots describing lack of training about MCAS and 1 pilot describing his experience of going from an 800 to a Max8.

It’s very clear that training was a problem for the Max8, but i don’t see anything in here that represents a serious safety concern that should cause us to ground the fleet.

What are the serious pilots saying?

TJ


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[MauleSkinner]

The AP news article you linked got their facts wrong from the ASRS report. The copilot reported that the vertical speed reduced to 1200-1500 and he called out descending before the gpws called out DONT SINK. No doubt it nosed over but it never stopped climbing. (Gpws would have called out PULL UP had the aircraft actually been descending.)

In my GPWS, “don’t sink” means I’ve lost approximately 10% of the altitude I’ve gained shortly after takeoff, so yes, the airplane would have been descending.

 

[Tj1376]

In my GPWS, “don’t sink” means I’ve lost approximately 10% of the altitude I’ve gained shortly after takeoff, so yes, the airplane would have been descending.

You think that airplane was descending at -1500? I don’t fly 737s... here is the whole ASRS report

Day 3 of 3 departing in a MAX 8 after a long overnight. I was well rested and had discussed the recent MAX 8 MCAS guidance with the Captain. On departure, we had strong crosswinds (gusts > 30 knots) directly off the right wing, however, no LLWS or Micro-burst activity was reported at the field. After verifying LNAV, selecting gear and flaps up, I set "UP" speed. The aircraft accelerated normally and the Captain engaged the "A" autopilot after reaching set speed. Within two to three seconds the aircraft pitched nose down bringing the VSI to approximately 1,200 to 1,500 FPM. I called "descending" just prior to the GPWS sounding "don't sink, don't sink." The Captain immediately disconnected the autopilot and pitched into a climb. The remainder of the flight was uneventful. We discussed the departure at length and I reviewed in my mind our automation setup and flight profile but can't think of any reason the aircraft would pitch nose down so aggressively.


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[MauleSkinner]

You think that airplane was descending at -1500? I don’t fly 737s... here is the whole ASRS report

Day 3 of 3 departing in a MAX 8 after a long overnight. I was well rested and had discussed the recent MAX 8 MCAS guidance with the Captain. On departure, we had strong crosswinds (gusts > 30 knots) directly off the right wing, however, no LLWS or Micro-burst activity was reported at the field. After verifying LNAV, selecting gear and flaps up, I set "UP" speed. The aircraft accelerated normally and the Captain engaged the "A" autopilot after reaching set speed. Within two to three seconds the aircraft pitched nose down bringing the VSI to approximately 1,200 to 1,500 FPM. I called "descending" just prior to the GPWS sounding "don't sink, don't sink." The Captain immediately disconnected the autopilot and pitched into a climb. The remainder of the flight was uneventful. We discussed the departure at length and I reviewed in my mind our automation setup and flight profile but can't think of any reason the aircraft would pitch nose down so aggressively.


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According to the GPWS callout, the airplane was descending. According to the copilot, he called out “descending” before the GPWS did.

I don’t know how fast, but it sounds to me like both man and machine saw the airplane descending.

 

[Tj1376]

According to the GPWS fallout, the airplane was descending. According to the copilot, he called out “descending” before the GPWS did.

I don’t know how fast, but it sounds to me like both man and machine saw the airplane descending.

Thanks. Yeah I just read the ASRS report as a drop in climb rate of 3000ish to 1200-1500 fpm. Still climbing but obviously headed into a situation where it would be losing altitude without intervention. I thought that was actually the difference between DONT SINK and PULL UP. Don’t sink meant stop the trend. Pull up, well obviously...


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[Larry in TN]

the Captain engaged the "A" autopilot after reaching set speed. Within two to three seconds the aircraft pitched nose down bringing the VSI to approximately 1,200 to 1,500 FPM.

MCAS is not active when the autopilot is engaged.

 

[Tj1376]

MCAS is not active when the autopilot is engaged.

Agreed- that’s why they are saying it’s two issues. An issue with mcas that we know about. And another issue with the autopilot that we don’t yet know about.

TJ


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[Bell206]

An issue with mcas that we know about.

FYI: the MCAS is also not active with flaps down. According to other reports the aircraft never attained sufficient altitude where the flaps would be fully retracted as part of normal ops.

FDR/CVR being sent to BEA in Germany.

 

[Tj1376]

FYI: the MCAS is also not active with flaps down. According to other reports the aircraft never attained sufficient altitude where the flaps would be fully retracted as part of normal ops.

FDR/CVR being sent to BEA in Germany.

Right. When I said that I was referring to LionAir. Not this crash.

TJ


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[1RTK1]

Posted this in another thread too.

Read this on Avweb, Question- is it not unheard of to have logged 8000 hours at the rip old age of 29?

According to reports, the captain, Yared Getachew, was 29 years old with 8000 hours, but the first officer had just 200 hours. At this stage, it is not clear if this is total time or time in type.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Read this on Avweb, Question- is it not unheard of to have logged 8000 hours at the rip old age of 29?

That’s probably less than 800 hours per year of professional flying, depending upon when he started. Not unheard of at all. I started flying professionally at 22, had a couple of really slow years during the recession, and I was probably at 6000 by age 29.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

And, that's it... The 737 Max is now grounded in the US, and effectively grounded worldwide:

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-...-13/us-grounds-remaining-boeing-max-8s-and-9s

 

[3393RP]

MCAS is not active when the autopilot is engaged.

One ASRS report inserted prominently into an AP story damning the MAX discussed an issue where the autopilot was engaged and the autothrottles did not function as anticipated. The pilot disconnected the autopilot and manually handled the throttles to increase thrust.

I'm not a 737 pilot, but I'm pretty sure the reported problem was entirely unrelated to the MCAS system.

 

[Stan Cooper]

Yeah, but they're not parallel.

This one was an abrupt cessation of all inflight signals, which means something catastrophic. My read is either an (unlikely) instantaneous failure of an aircraft system in such a way that it destroyed the entire aircraft or some external factor, like a terrorist attack. I have been reading in the news where the terrorist groups are getting reorganized again in eastern Africa. They attempted a hijacking a month or two ago for the first time over 15 years. A bomb would seem to be a logical next try.

Oh, really?

From the FAA emergency order: “On Mar. 13, 2018, the investigation of the ET302 crash developed new information from the wreckage concerning the aircraft’s configuration just after takeoff that, taken together with newly refined data from satellite-based tracking of the aircraft’s flight path, indicates some similarities between the ET302 and [October 2018 Lion Air Flight] JT610 accidents that warrant further investigation of the possibility of a shared cause for the two incidents that needs to be better understood and addressed,”

 

[Tj1376]

Oh, really?

From the FAA emergency order: “On Mar. 13, 2018, the investigation of the ET302 crash developed new information from the wreckage concerning the aircraft’s configuration just after takeoff that, taken together with newly refined data from satellite-based tracking of the aircraft’s flight path, indicates some similarities between the ET302 and [October 2018 Lion Air Flight] JT610 accidents that warrant further investigation of the possibility of a shared cause for the two incidents that needs to be better understood and addressed,”

Have you seen the data linking them? What are your thoughts? How do you draw that conclusion?

When I look at it, There is really only one oscillation that looks like LionAir. It then doesn’t look anything like LionAir to me.

It almost looks like ET caught the first downward trend of the nose, then it happened again and they reacted differently to the second nose down than the LionAir flight.

In the LionAir data you saw these consistent patterns of ups and downs, every 20 seconds. In ET you see this twice and then something else all together.

I wish the FAA would release the data they have from 3/13 which makes them think the two flights do parallel. I really hope it’s not the same flightradar data that the news has been spewing all week.

TJ


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[FlySince9]

total? or in that type? no, can't be total, right?

 

[Larry in TN]

One ASRS report inserted prominently into an AP story damning the MAX discussed an issue where the autopilot was engaged and the autothrottles did not function as anticipated. The pilot disconnected the autopilot and manually handled the throttles to increase thrust.

The A/P and A/T are separate systems. No need to disconnect the A/P in order to operate the thrust manually. On airplanes with the Speed Intervene feature we have to do exactly that at times.

A/T will adjust power to maintain the selected airspeed or set a specific power setting (N1). That airspeed could be selected manually on the MCP (Mode Control Panel) or calculated by the VNAV function of the FMS (Flight Management System). During takeoff and climb, the A/T are in "N1" mode and will set the applicable max, reduce-thrust, or climb power.

 

[TFulwider]

Have the reports of the plane trailing smoke and pieces been debunked?

 

[Tj1376]

Have the reports of the plane trailing smoke and pieces been debunked?

Not that I’ve seen. But eyewitness accounts rarely paint an accurate picture.

TJ


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[Bell206]

Looks like the NTSB will still be involved in the CVR/FDR download.
https://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/NR20190314.aspx

 

[3393RP]

The A/P and A/T are separate systems. No need to disconnect the A/P in order to operate the thrust manually. On airplanes with the Speed Intervene feature we have to do exactly that at times.

A/T will adjust power to maintain the selected airspeed or set a specific power setting (N1). That airspeed could be selected manually on the MCP (Mode Control Panel) or calculated by the VNAV function of the FMS (Flight Management System). During takeoff and climb, the A/T are in "N1" mode and will set the applicable max, reduce-thrust, or climb power.

Right, I know that the AT is a standalone system. The report made little sense and had nothing to do with the MCAS, but By God they put it in the newspaper.

The pilot also reported something like "I may have caused the situation, I'm not sure what happened.

Journalism 2019: It was like, you know, a Problem With The 737 MAX, so we had to report it.

Thanks for the information, Larry.

 

[Tj1376]

Right, I know that the AT is a standalone system. The report made little sense and had nothing to do with the MCAS, but By God they put it in the newspaper.

The pilot also reported something like "I may have caused the situation, I'm not sure what happened.

Journalism 2019: It was like, you know, a Problem With The 737 MAX, so we had to report it.

Thanks for the information, Larry.

Do you have links to the ATC communication?

TJ


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[bflynn]

Have you seen the data linking them?

My comment was based on early reporting which said there was a sudden cessation of inflight signals + smoke.

My understanding now is around a computer control problem, similar to but not specifically an autopilot runaway trim problem.

 

[3393RP]

Do you have links to the ATC communication?

TJ

No, perhaps you have confused me with another poster.

 

[Tj1376]

No, perhaps you have confused me with another poster.

The pilot also reported something like "I may have caused the situation, I'm not sure what happened.

I was talking about this line where you said the above.

TJ


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[3393RP]

It was in an ASRS report filed by a 737 MAX pilot in 2018. I paraphrased it because now I can't find it.