Entering Mode C veil without Mode C question

Huckster79

Huckster79

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Huckster79
So my old girl has no mode C, not big hinderance to me. The class C nearby me routinely lets you in with a phone call ahead of time, and often a call from the air and they have no issue. for the rarity I even “need” to go there..

However there is a fly in at KPTK every Saturday all summer, it’s just inside the mod C veil of Detroit metro. I called PTK tower and asked them, and phrased it this way:

“ I’m negative mode c, with a call ahead can you give me permission to come in for your fly in, or do I need permission from Detroit metro being it’s their Mode C veil”

He said well just stay under it on your way in, I explained I was concerned about the veil not their airspace. Airspace starts at 6000 ft in that area I’ve never been that high in her yet.

He said “oh yea, you should be fine, just call us before you depart home and I don’t see an issue”

Very nice guy but I’m concerned he didn’t understand the heart of my question... and the word “should” is a concern of mine.

There is no floor to the veil right? Is that ok, just getting permission from that tower (class D) to come in even though it’s not their veil? Or is it as long as I’m talking to someone in the system and they are aware and have blessed it that’s sufficient?
 
Well it ain’t gunna be 2020 yet this summer ;) so what about now? Is it within PTKs authority to say I can be in Detroit’s veil?
 
Huckster79 said:
Well it ain’t gunna be 2020 yet this summer ;) so what about now? Is it within PTKs authority to say I can be in Detroit’s veil?
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I know... I was just asking for all the people that will not do ADSB in 2020... The V35B I fly has it so I can fly it in any airspace. I may put it in my Bonanza but really don't want anyone tracking my N number and watching everything I do..... I won't put it in the other planes.
 
pigpenracing said:
I know... I was just asking for all the people that will not do ADSB in 2020... The V35B I fly has it so I can fly it in any airspace. I may put it in my Bonanza but really don't want anyone tracking my N number and watching everything I do..... I won't put it in the other planes.
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Oh I know- I was being snarky for fun of it.

If there’s no exception to the occasional flight- I’ll deal without it... if it were a long cross country that really added conscience or was a bit of a “need” I’d take my club plane. I didn’t sell my share when I bought my burger chaser... for this and her other two seats..

But I’d be talking a lot of gas $ at 5 gal an hour for a duhicky that’ll allow a non necessary flight every year or five... but I know other guys it wud b huge hibderance if not a show stopper without
 
I would call the TRACON.

edit, come to think of it, I routinely flew a non-electric Luscombe in the MIA Mode C veil. I do not think you need to contact anyone, the exception is built into the rule. You would only contact the TRACON in advance if you need to enter the Bravo.
 
91.225 (ADSB) has a similar exemption

14 CFR § 91.225 - Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast (ADS-B) Out equipment and use.
...
(e) The requirements of paragraph (b) of this section do not apply to any aircraft that was not originally certificated with an electrical system, or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, including balloons and gliders. These aircraft may conduct operations without ADS-B Out in the airspace specified in paragraphs (d)(2) and (d)(4) of this section. Operations authorized by this section must be conducted -

(1) Outside any Class B or Class C airspace area; and

(2) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport, or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower.
 
I don't know if your C-140 has an electrical system or not.
If not, then the Mode C Veil and ADSB are essentially the same requirement for you, equipment not needed. No prior permission is required in the Veil, only for VFR entry to Class B.
They are separate but co-located airspace.

Now assuming a normal plane with an electrical system, PTK seems like a special case. It's right on the edge of the Veil, and in fact extends outside of it a bit. Technically the airport class D is inside the Veil and Mode C and ADSB are and will be required for most normal planes.
But not for planes that don't have an electrical system, if yours is like that.
But since you already are talking to PTK while arriving and departing, I think it will be fine either way. I would try and arrive and depart straight north, and then go on your merry way, whichever direction that is.
 
champ driver said:
Now assuming a normal plane with an electrical system, PTK seems like a special case. It's right on the edge of the Veil, and in fact extends outside of it a bit. Technically the airport class D is inside the Veil and Mode C and ADSB are and will be required for most normal planes.
But not for planes that don't have an electrical system, if yours is like that.
But since you already are talking to PTK while arriving and departing, I think it will be fine either way. I would try and arrive and depart straight north, and then go on your merry way, whichever direction that is.
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Right or wrong, that’s how I would do it too.
 
The tower does not have the authority to waive the veil requirement. Call Tracon each time and it should not be an issue.
 
Clip4 said:
The tower does not have the authority to waive the veil requirement. Call Tracon each time and it should not be an issue.
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That's 100% correct, that's what I did every time I wanted to fly from a Class D inside the MSP Class B Veil after 9-11.
 
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champ driver said:
I don't know if your C-140 has an electrical system or not
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The 140 was the DEELUX version - had flaps, an extra window, and a 15 amp generator. High tech.

The Detroit TRACON has been pretty accommodating in the past with non-transponder aircraft as long as you agree to stay clear of bravo and Canada (not likely to be an issue going into PTK :-) )
 
You guys confirmed my gut feeling...

The gentleman was very nice but I just didn’t think he got it when he seemed confused as to why I couldn’t stay under the veil then said you “should” be okay. I’ll call TRACON...

I don’t think “the guy I talked to at the tower said I SHOULD be okay” would be a solid defense...
 
Anything can be worked out in advance. I've gone in and out of IAD NORDO several times (including after 9/11).
 
Coordinate with the controlling facility, usually Approach or Tracon. I've gotten permission to fly through the Mode C veil at MSP before when my encoder failed on a trip. They just wanted me on flight following and flying a confirmed altitude so they knew who I was and more importantly, how high I was.

My opinion is that the ADS-B requirements will be treated like Mode C, you will be able to get permission with advanced coordination.
 
texasclouds said:
I read an article in Gen Aviation News that said a new rule will let you call for special approval for non-frequent flights in the veil with no adsb out
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Help me rationalize the emphasized text with "weekly fly-ins."

I think @Huckster79 needs to pony up some ADSB dollars like the rest of us fools.
 
Ravioli said:
Help me rationalize the emphasized text with "weekly fly-ins."

I think @Huckster79 needs to pony up some ADSB dollars like the rest of us fools.
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Nah, it’s just a Saturday fly in, I’ll skip it and go to a pancake breakfast the other direction if they said no... no skin off my back... with needing a new transponder to do adsb I’m looking at what 5k minimum? That’s enough for VGs and 180 hours of gas For fly ins not in a mode c veil! Lol
 
pigpenracing said:
I know... I was just asking for all the people that will not do ADSB in 2020... The V35B I fly has it so I can fly it in any airspace. I may put it in my Bonanza but really don't want anyone tracking my N number and watching everything I do..... I won't put it in the other planes.
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Wow! Give us the scoop. What do you have to hide?
 
Until the end of the year flying under the veil is no big deal. In the world of ADS-B, however, you will need it under the veil, or need to call for permission. For you now, you need to call for permission because of no Mode C.
 
MBDiagMan said:
Wow! Give us the scoop. What do you have to hide?
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I don't have anything to hide...
Does your wife have a tracker on your iphone and watch everything you do? Probably so....
My wife trusts me so she don't track my every step.
It's the point.
 
My wife and I trust each other fine, so she or anyone else can track me on flightaware all they want. If I had something to hide I suppose I would be worried about it like you were.
 
MBDiagMan said:
My wife and I trust each other fine, so she or anyone else can track me on flightaware all they want. If I had something to hide I suppose I would be worried about it like you were.
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Each to his own... I stated above the V35B Bonanza has ADSB already. I can fly that airplane anywhere ADSB is required. I have a bunch of other airplanes and do not plan on doing them... Its my choice. Not hiding anything....
FAA don't need to watch me fly my Cub, Pitts or Stearman out in the country do they?
Soon people are going to rely on this ADSB traffic on their stupid little screen and not be looking outside for traffic like they need to be.
 
I like being tracked. That way if there is a complaint from someone about "suspicions" behavior or a buzz job, or whatever, then I can be the one that popped up in the system closest to whatever happened on that day.Or, if I set my altimeter wrong, I'm sure to get at call from the FSDO telling me that I bumped up against the Class B. And, as an added bonus, if the big game runs over by an hour or so, then it's easy for the FAA to know who nicked the "Stadium TFR".
 
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DaleB said:
I get so flippin’ tired of that attitude. Some of us don’t have a bloody thing to hide. We just don’t like the idea of anyone on the planet being able to see everything we do and everywhere we go.
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I won’t even bank at the institution my significant other works at... my checkbook is as boring as day is long- but by God I don’t want her able to poke around n see what I got or how I spend it...
 
I would like to fly a PPC out of a grass strip inside a Mode C Veil and under the 3000' floor of associated Class B airspace … my interpretation is that, so long as I stay under & clear of the B airspace, I am okay flying the PPC without a "mode c" and there is no requirement for ATC contact / permission .. am I correct?
 
CLP said:
I would like to fly a PPC out of a grass strip inside a Mode C Veil and under the 3000' floor of associated Class B airspace … my interpretation is that, so long as I stay under & clear of the B airspace, I am okay flying the PPC without a "mode c" and there is no requirement for ATC contact / permission .. am I correct?
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I could be wrong on this, but my understanding is there is no floor to a veil...
 
The OP needs to call the controlling authority for the airspace, I think the TRACON for Detroit would be the right guys. If not whoever the OP talks to will get him to the right people. In my experience controllers are really nice on the phone. Tell them what's going on, and give Approach Control a call on departure. Shouldn't be a thing. Might change after 2020, but I doubt it.
 
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CLP said:
I would like to fly a PPC out of a grass strip inside a Mode C Veil and under the 3000' floor of associated Class B airspace … my interpretation is that, so long as I stay under & clear of the B airspace, I am okay flying the PPC without a "mode c" and there is no requirement for ATC contact / permission .. am I correct?
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I assume you are part 103...
The transponder requirements inside the mode C veil applies to "All Aircraft" (91.215)... But under part 103, you are operating a "ultralight vehicle", not an "aircraft" so 91.125 does not apply, and you are only required to remain outside the actual A,B,C, or the lateral boundaries of the surface area of Class E airspace designated for an airport... (103.17).
Should be good to go.

There are also exceptions to mode-C and ADS-B (after 2020) for aircraft without an electrical system.
 
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ADS-B or no ADS-B, all you need to be "tracked" is your tail number which can easily be tracked by anyone with internet, to the person or company that it is registered to complete with an address and shoe size....okay that last part is a lie but you get the gist.
 
Salty is correct, there is no floor to the Mode C Veil, you are in it or out of it, to be under it would require you to be underground.
Now, you can be under any of the Class B shelves, which is different.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
I assume you are part 103...
The transponder requirements inside the mode C veil applies to "All Aircraft" (91.215)... But under part 103, you are operating a "ultralight vehicle", not an "aircraft" so 91.125 does not apply, and you are only required to remain outside the actual A,B,C, or the lateral boundaries of the surface area of Class E airspace designated for an airport... (103.17).
Should be good to go.

There are also exceptions to mode-C and ADS-B (after 2020) for aircraft without an electrical system.
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Thanks ... N numbered PPC = "aircraft without electrical system", so exception would apply ....
 
pigpenracing said:
I don't have anything to hide...
Does your wife have a tracker on your iphone and watch everything you do? Probably so....
My wife trusts me so she don't track my every step.
It's the point.
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While data may be gathered, that is not the same as tracking. One is passive, the other active. Unless something interesting happens, nobody will care about your flights for anything beyond statistics.
 
So here's a question that the TRACON has to give me the real answer, but I'll throw it out there: I plan to make several flights this summer over a location (no landing) that's only one mile inside the mode C veil, well clear of the class B itself, and probably not over 2000 AGL, in a plane that has an electrical system but no transponder or ADS-B. In a wood and fabric biplane, probably won't even show up on their primary radar. I'll call the tracon on the phone, of course, for permission. Is it likely they'll want me to call them on the radio too? Radio communications in an open cockpit are always challenging.
 
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