Engine out on take off? How do you plan for it?

FloridaPilot

FloridaPilot

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Since joining POA a few years ago, I have noticed an increase of engine out accidents and I wanted to ask the community how do you plan ahead of time for an engine out emergency on take off with just a few hundred feet of altitude? The run up and pre flight doesn't count because many pilots did just that and still had an engine out on take off so that's not 100%. I know the plan is to land straight with slight turns but does anyone check out the airport and it's surrounding areas ahead of time with Google maps, Foreflight..etc I plan for an engine out and if it doesn't happen I'm grateful!

How do you folks plan?
 
At my home airport I have surveyed the surrounding areas and have practiced (GASP!) the "impossible turn" to know when I have room to turn back (even if I land on the apron or taxiway) and when I don't.

At new airports (since I'm flying there anyway) I look around when in the pattern for landing to get an idea of what's possible. Google maps with satellite view is a good idea.

Frankly, at my home airport, I'm more worried about an engine failure as I'm tooling along at 1400' AGL for a few miles to get out from under the Class B shelf of Orlando International. There's a lot of urban clutter and not a lot of landing spots.
 
FloridaPilot said:
Since joining POA a few years ago, I have noticed an increase of engine out accidents and I wanted to ask the community how do you plan ahead of time for an engine out emergency on take off with just a few hundred feet of altitude? The run up and pre flight doesn't count because many pilots did just that and still had an engine out on take off so that's not 100%. I know the plan is to land straight with slight turns but does anyone check out the airport and it's surrounding areas ahead of time with Google maps, Foreflight..etc I plan for an engine out and if it doesn't happen I'm grateful!

How do you folks plan?
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Holding on the runway at about 1/2 to 2/3 power counting to 5 then brake release has saved my bacon once. The engine sputtered about 200 feet into the takeoff roll at full throttle. That was a post maintenance check flight.

I tend to look behind me at the ground where I was parked during the runup to see if anything was leaking from the airplane.

I try (not always successfully) to survey where the best spots are to land are at unfarmiliar airports, if things don't go well when I try to takeoff.
 
I've played with the Google Earth planning idea before but am always very unsure of what distance from runway I should be looking. Anyone have any guidance in this regard?
 
Do all the usual checks that help prevent it happening in the first place.

If it does happen get the nose lowered to prevent a stall. Also, it may be a temporary condition and I want to keep the propeller turning. This one did happen to me.

Depending on altitude I can make a 90 degree turn or 180 degree turn to land on more favorable terrain. (A 180 turn gets the plane parallel to the runway, but not aligned with it.)

To be alignted with the runway takes a 90 degree left followed by a 270 right. That takes a lot of altitude.

Added: Use all the runway. Better to have an engine out on the ground than in the air.
 
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Like jsstevens, I have studied the surrounding land around my airport by Google Maps and have 'possible outs' for departing each runway. Before take off, I always brief myself and whoever is flying with me of what we'll do if we experience engine failure during the takeoff roll, immediately after departure and above 1000' feet.
 
Ryanb said:
Like jsstevens, I have studied the surrounding land around my airport by Google Maps and have 'possible outs' for departing each runway. Before take off, I always brief myself and whoever is flying with me of what we'll do if we experience engine failure during the takeoff roll, immediately after departure and above 1000' feet.
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Self briefing is a good way to keep from being complacent. It's a reminder that THIS TIME it could happen. And a pre-made decision saves time.
 
jsstevens said:
At my home airport I have surveyed the surrounding areas and have practiced (GASP!) the "impossible turn" to know when I have room to turn back (even if I land on the apron or taxiway) and when I don't.

At new airports (since I'm flying there anyway) I look around when in the pattern for landing to get an idea of what's possible. Google maps with satellite view is a good idea.

Frankly, at my home airport, I'm more worried about an engine failure as I'm tooling along at 1400' AGL for a few miles to get out from under the Class B shelf of Orlando International. There's a lot of urban clutter and not a lot of landing spots.
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Yeah, I've taken off there before, (KORL) you have the lakes which has Alligators, 408 and Colonial Dr....Really tough to put an airplane down there not much space. :(
 
Best to remember that when one is practicing an "impossible turn", one is primed to begin the maneuver RIGHT NOW.

In a real engine out, typically 3 to 4 seconds will pass before any action is taken. A lot of airspeed can be lost in that "deer in the headlights", so that when the turn is finally initiated, the plane might have very little margin over the stall.

I know a lot of pilots assume that 3 to 4 seconds is just for the "average" pilot, but that is a very dangerous assumption. Unlike Lake Woebegone, we are not all above average!
 
FastEddieB said:
Best to remember that when one is practicing an "impossible turn", one is primed to begin the maneuver RIGHT NOW.
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On every takeoff, I consider the wind as well as the runway for the possible turn back and then self-brief. That stiff headwind on takeoff becomes a stiff tailwind after the turn and if you're on a relatively short strip you could be facing a serious overshoot. It might be better to just land straight ahead even if you know you can make the turn.

But then again at some airports it might be better to accept the overshoot because there aren't any good alternatives straight ahead. It's a pretty complex decision that bears sorting out as much as possible ahead of time.
 
FastEddieB said:
Best to remember that when one is practicing an "impossible turn", one is primed to begin the maneuver RIGHT NOW.

In a real engine out, typically 3 to 4 seconds will pass before any action is taken. A lot of airspeed can be lost in that "deer in the headlights", so that when the turn is finally initiated, the plane might have very little margin over the stall.

I know a lot of pilots assume that 3 to 4 seconds is just for the "average" pilot, but that is a very dangerous assumption. Unlike Lake Woebegone, we are not all above average!
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Acknowledged. And I've practiced quite a bit with the flight instructor startling me on a number of occasions and seeing what happened. The nice thing about KORL is there's lots of flat space to set down on even if you can't make a runway. Some of my practice attempts wound up positioned for the taxiway, some for the customs apron (which I've never seen even one airplane on).

John
 
I check out my destinations on Google maps and note possible options... I have surveyed my home base for options... Off one runway is a highway the other has a few possibilities (provided there's enough altitude)... A failure just after crossing the end of the runway or soon after and all bets are off. The plan then is to "fly it all the way to the crash site" as slowly as possible and :fcross: for the best...
 
I made this for my home airport (and shared it in another post). It shows the no-go in red, the maybe in yellow. I also put the traffic pattern in blue line to better envision where I might be in the pattern. Just cut & paste google maps into Excel and used the drawing function to overlay my lines and colors (not elegant, but does the job),

image.jpeg
 
Also handy to remember what roads are around when you land for fuel at strange airports. Usually on final after last checks I'm looking out past the runway or beside it for options later...
 
wrbix said:
I've played with the Google Earth planning idea before but am always very unsure of what distance from runway I should be looking. Anyone have any guidance in this regard?
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I've done this before. Take the takeoff roll distances from the manual, measure from the end of your desired runway and drop a pin for the lift off point (maybe make it a little longer to account for less than book performance and time between reaching rotation speed and getting airborne. Make a mental note on your next flight to see where you lifted off for even more accuracy.)

Use the climb performance numbers from the manual to figure out your time and distance to climb from your liftoff point. For instance, if your airplane climbs at 70 knots true airspeed at 500 FPM, figure you would be at 500 AGL at 1.16 NM from the liftoff point, 700 AGL at 1.62 NM from the liftoff point. Drop a pin on the map and label it for the altitude.

You can then figure out a glide distance from those numbers. If your airplane has a 9:1 glide ratio you could assume that from 700' AGL, you could glide 6,300 feet over ground. Of course this should probably be shortened to account for the variables.

Yeah, it isn't perfect, doesn't account for winds or anything like that but it gives you a picture.
 
Know the area, know your airplane (as in just "in the green" isn't good enough), the moment you think you should do something, be it abort a takeoff or something else, you probably should have done it 20 seconds ago. Don't second guess yourself
 
Home airport, I have my preferred runway and open areas in the event of engine failure. Outside of that, I just kinda take it as it comes, especially if departing in an urban area. In that case, it's about finding an open road and accepting its gonna suck. Just like flying over expansive wilderness with no open fields. You cross that bridge when you get to it and deal with the situation.

In helicopters I try and apply a similar thought process. Minimize vertical (altitude over airspeed) take offs and try and choose a departure path that will allow a safe auto to the surface. Always be looking for an area to set down on departure.
 
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Depends on the airport. At my home field, SEE, if I'm departing 28L or 28R then I'll start my climb at Vx, then about 400' AGL go to Vy. At 400' AGL I'm pretty sure I could make it to the 52 and land there. Once I'm at 800' AGL I could do a tight pattern and make it back to the airport. The glide range feature on ForeFlight is also pretty helpful

I mean in reality there is a very short amount of time where you are totally screwed, from about 100' AGL to about 400' AGL where you just say a prayer and land straight ahead. If the engine gives up the ghost in that 15-20 seconds then A.) my luck is really bad, and B.) the (G)god(s) have made it quite clear that it is my time to go
 
If less than 800' (which allows for reaction time), I'm landing more or less straight ahead (within ~45 degree arc left or right of straight ahead).

Best glide first, keeping absolutely focused on not stalling it. Once I see my spot, I'm aiming for whatever area doesn't involve hitting a solid wall with the nose of the plane. The key to survival is keeping the sudden deceleration forces to a minimum. Keep under control, fly it all the way to a stop. I don't care about the airframe if the engine quits on takeoff from a short field; my insurance deductible is $100. I also don't care what I hit, cost-wise, so long as I've done what I can to not hit someone on the ground.

I also have a 4-point BAS harness, which gives me some additional confidence.
 
Tantalum said:
I mean in reality there is a very short amount of time where you are totally screwed, from about 100' AGL to about 400' AGL where you just say a prayer and land straight ahead. If the engine gives up the ghost in that 15-20 seconds then A.) my luck is really bad, and B.) the (G)god(s) have made it quite clear that it is my time to go
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I hope you don't mean that literally. If I lost power at 100' AGL departing KFUL, I'm likely going to either shove it back on the ground and maybe take out the chain link fence at the end of the runway 24 departure, rwy 6 has a better grass overrun area), or I'm hopping to the other side of the street at the end of the airport and landing in the bit of grass on the other side of the road.

A worthwhile read:
https://www.avweb.com/news/features/The-Art-of-Crashing-223447-1.html
 
Jeff Oslick said:
If I lost power at 100' AGL departing KFUL, I'm likely going to either shove it back on the ground and maybe take out the chain link fence at the end of the runway 24 departure
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For sure, but like I said it depends on the airport. Ramona has a nice long field off the end of it too. Runway 28L and R don't have much room to put it down straight ahead. The other pilots I've flown with here pretty much say the same. If you're that low just stay coordinated, slow to best glide, and land straight ahead (more or less, obviously if there is a small road or parking lot go for that)
 
If I lose an engine taking off on our most common runway (08), I have an option of trees, intracostal waterway, a narrow section of A1A with all kinds of power lines or the ocean.
Everyone that hit the trees around here died.
The ocean here is great, with a lot of good surfing waves, but they sort of suck for a light plane landing (watering?).
And I am wondering how the EPA would react to me sloshing 80 gallons of avgas into the waterway, not that I would die to find out. After all, Sully didn't go to jail.

The other runways would be just as bad, but without the ocean.
 
Dead foot, dead engine, then secure the dead engine return to the traffic pattern and land.....

Here in Gallup there is a trailer house park on each end of the runway.
 
At my home airport (KSRQ) you pretty much have the water as a go-to for engine death if you can't make it back to the field. There's some interstate roads, but depending on the time of day those may not be an option. They are JAM packed during rush hour.

The runways are pretty long though, more than enough space to put it back down again even after climbing to 200-500' after takeoff in a 172. The tower does hand out intersection departures though so, you gotta balance taking one of those with the likelihood of an engine out.

If I'm by myself I'll take one occasionally, but I prefer full length with pax, more options.
 
Tantalum said:
Depends on the airport. At my home field, SEE, if I'm departing 28L or 28R then I'll start my climb at Vx, then about 400' AGL go to Vy. At 400' AGL I'm pretty sure I could make it to the 52 and land there.
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Vx is for obstacle clearance. Vy is best rate. You want altitude a quickly as possible because altitude gives you more options. Further, Vx also has the disadvantage of poor over the nose visibility and poor engine cooling. Climb at Vy. I'm sure if you look around you can find a thread on this argument.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
I hope you don't mean that literally. If I lost power at 100' AGL departing KFUL, I'm likely going to either shove it back on the ground and maybe take out the chain link fence at the end of the runway 24 departure, rwy 6 has a better grass overrun area), or I'm hopping to the other side of the street at the end of the airport and landing in the bit of grass on the other side of the road.
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Jeff, have been to KFUL several times and that'd be a nasty field for an engine out. It's good that you pre-plan and are ready for it.

Without pax I have an audible similar to "lights, camera action" and " instruments green, rpm, air speed alive"" as I'm rolling and climbing (abort runway, abort straight, slight turn and return to base) dependent on field, altitude, etc. When the stuff hits the fan, unless it's obvious (oil all over the place and no thrust), and especially if its RPM reduction, most pilots will be changing tanks, verifying boost on, cramming everything that isn't carb heat and losing about 3-4 seconds right there.

CFI friend lost a prop seal in the pattern and basically dumped all the oil before getting it back down (windshield obscured). Lost my prop seal a couple of years ago, but was on the ground 10 seconds before engine shutdown - talk about good luck!
 
jkaduk said:
Vx is for obstacle clearance. Vy is best rate.
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Right, VX gets me the most altitude in the shortest distance and Vy gets me the most altitude in the shortest time. So for the first 15-20 seconds I'll be looking for the most altitude in the shortest distance. Once I'm high enough that I can make it the 52 I'll bring the nose down... and eventually settle into a cruise climb. Ofcourse that's at SEE and using 34NK which has the JPI in it

Skyrys62 said:
You're also likely to find and argument on this thread
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Wouldn't be PoA without it. Just don't mention Cirrus!
 
Learned a long time ago. The three most useless things in flying are runway behind you, altitude above you and gas on the ground. No intersection takeoffs for me unless directed and choose the most favorable terrain direction for anything under 5 kts tailwind if possible considering traffic and not a tail dragger.

Cheers
 
Tantalum said:
Right, VX gets me the most altitude in the shortest distance and Vy gets me the most altitude in the shortest time. So for the first 15-20 seconds I'll be looking for the most altitude in the shortest distance.
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Try this. Take off from an airport with a long runway (SDM) and climb at Vx with an observer on board to note how high you are and how far down the runway you are after 20 seconds. Then repeat at Vy. I'm betting the difference will be negligible. Then climb to a safe altitude and commence a climb at Vx. Then quickly throttle back to idle and count one potato two potato before you push the nose over. See how exciting that is. Lastly, find a reference in the Airplane Flying Handbook or source of your choice that suggests climbing at Vx for other than short field obstacle clearance takeoffs. I'll be happy to be your observer. And I'll readily admit I'm wrong if you find that reference.
 
FloridaPilot said:
Since joining POA a few years ago, I have noticed an increase of engine out accidents and I wanted to ask the community how do you plan ahead of time for an engine out emergency on take off with just a few hundred feet of altitude? The run up and pre flight doesn't count because many pilots did just that and still had an engine out on take off so that's not 100%. I know the plan is to land straight with slight turns but does anyone check out the airport and it's surrounding areas ahead of time with Google maps, Foreflight..etc I plan for an engine out and if it doesn't happen I'm grateful!

How do you folks plan?
Click to expand...
Short answer is, prepare for it as best you can, expect it, and be pleasantly surprised when it doesn't happen.
 
I had recently been giving this more thought at my home base, Copperhill, TN:

36238957945_a3090e110b_c.jpg


Runways are 2/20.

RWY20 leaves precious few options. I do have a very small clearing to the left in mind, but it would be tough.

RWY2 gives US64 as a decent option. I drove the stretch from the airport west and there are no powerlines to contend with. That would be my first, best option.

All things being equal, I think I'm going to start giving a heavier preference to RWY2, even with a slight tailwind on takeoff. At least in my Sky Arrow, which uses very little of the 3,500' of runway to get airborne. Traffic permitting, of course.
 
FastEddieB said:
I had recently been giving this more thought at my home base, Copperhill, TN:

36238957945_a3090e110b_c.jpg


Runways are 2/20.

RWY20 leaves precious few options. I do have a very small clearing to the left in mind, but it would be tough.

RWY2 gives US64 as a decent option. I drove the stretch from the airport west and there are no powerlines to contend with. That would be my first, best option.

All things being equal, I think I'm going to start giving a heavier preference to RWY2, even with a slight tailwind on takeoff. At least in my Sky Arrow, which uses very little of the 3,500' of runway to get airborne. Traffic permitting, of course.
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Great Idea to post your home airport!

My home airport is nothing special, it's actually the best place to have an engine out in my opinion a lot of places to put her down. It's pretty much farmland all around the airport. That will probably change in the next decade or so because they are starting to develop the surrounding areas aggressively. Airport Manatee has runway 7 and 25. Pretty wide open but my favorite is runway 7 because I take off from there most often and we get most of our winds from the east. It's a grass strip so putting down an airplane in this situation shouldn't be a big deal in an engine out situation.

Airport Manatee.jpg

Now another airport I frequent KCLW is a more challenging situation with an engine out:

KCLW.jpg

A very congested area (Pinellas County) in Florida is 98% build out so not many places to land in an engine out situation I have Drew Street south of me, (Not listed in the photo) which is a pretty big street but there are many cables crossing the street so you will be pretty lucky not to hit one of them, there is the golf course beside the airport but it's parallel to the runway so you might as well land correctly. There is a little bit of space at the end of each runway but more often then not people like to park airplanes there. I should consider KSPG because there is more options there to land in case of an engine out:

KSPG.jpg

Water landings are not out of the question here because there are quite a few boats around that would be willing to help. Taking off from Runway 25 there is not many options but some vacant land in the surrounding areas but with many power lines, people and vehicles on the ground. Fate would have to be on your side that day.

I would love to see some of your runways and the options you have!!

Thanks!
 
besides checking out the terrain around the airport I always remind myself that crashing as slow as possible with the airplane still flying and the wings level is the ultimate goal.

Edit: actually landing is. But when that aint possible then crashing slow, flying and wings level is the path to survival.
 
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