Engine Monitor

tmyers said:
Matt,
To be honest I have no idea if I have a MEL or not. I know when the EGT went out the last time my A&P told me it was not an airworthiness item. But I want to be less dependent on him for answers and more dependent on myself which is why I ask so many questions. So with that in mind what is a TSDS?
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If you had an MEL (miminum equipment list) you would know it. Its not real common to have for part 91 operators, but its a book that tells you what to do basically if you have something INOP. I would be willing to bet you don't have, one as you have to apply for one from the FSDO. In you case the TCDS will tell you what equipment came on your airplane when it was certified. Alterations from this document will require paperwork.

tmyers said:
If I have a MEL where would it be? POH?
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Could be, but most likely it is a separate book all by itself. Here is a copy of 2A13, your TCDS. Just find you model and read on. There is also notes that apply to all models.
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_G...21AE845820577B998625774D005339F2?OpenDocument
 
rowerwet said:
you may have issues getting rid of any original airframe gauges as most of the time they are still original equipment.
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That was my concern - I don't think the JPI 700/730/760 is certified to replace most things, but the JPI 800/830 is. That may just be for oil pressure and the like, though. In any case, be sure that what you get is a certified replacement for the factory gauges. Just because it can show the same info doesn't mean it is. :frown2:

flyingmoose said:
In you case the TCDS will tell you what equipment came on your airplane when it was certified. Alterations from this document will require paperwork.

Could be, but most likely it is a separate book all by itself. Here is a copy of 2A13, your TCDS. Just find you model and read on. There is also notes that apply to all models.
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_G...21AE845820577B998625774D005339F2?OpenDocument
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I've read a bunch of TCDSs (Type Certificate Data Sheets, for the person who asked) and I've never seen an equipment list on one. It has weight and balance info, control surface travel, fuel type and capacity, engine/prop info, etc. but where would you look for equipment?

FWIW, we put a JPI 700 in the 182 a few years ago, with fuel flow, carb temp, and USB data transfer options. It's been a good unit.
 
Soon after I got my Comanche I had plenty of "want to do's" Then I added them up. Turbo Gami's; Engine analyzer; Speed mods, autopilot and Garmin 430 or 530. The total came to over $120k including what i had already invested.

I decided that I really needed to just enjoy my airplane and fly it. I didn't really buy it to sit behind a TV and autopilot. So I hand fly every hour. But if I want to sit and sleep I can go commercially.

Engine analyzer is nice to have, but where do you stop.

You will never recover one penny of any money you put into your airplane with the exception of up to 50% of a Major OH and possibly get 25% on a new paint job if it is not putting lipstick on a pig.

My advice fly your new to you airplane for 100 hrs before investing any money. Then think about it and fly another 100 hrs. If you still need to spend some money on it, fly it another 100 hrs.

Then Sell it and buy the plane you want. Almost always you can find a plane like you like it and buy it cheaper than what you will have in your plane by the time you get it perfect.
 
I guess my thought was that I need a working EGT since mine has died again. Rather than by an engine monitor $200 at a time (what I have been spending on the old EGT) I could just put a new one in that monitors all 4 cylinders for about $1200 installed.

If $1200 keeps me from cooking a cylinder it isn't really lipstick but rather BBQ sauce.
 
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The rationale makes sense. While EGT probes do go out now and then, with a proper installation, they shouldn't.
 
I looked at more than 25 airplanes before settling on the one I have so I try to be a smart and frugal buyer. I learn a lot by asking questions and I am confident that when I pull the trigger on an engine monitor it will be the best bang for the buck I could find and and will have future add on capabilities.
 
tmyers said:
I looked at more than 25 airplanes before settling on the one I have so I try to be a smart and frugal buyer. I learn a lot by asking questions and I am confident that when I pull the trigger on an engine monitor it will be the best bang for the buck I could find and and will have future add on capabilities.
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Seriously, when it comes to aircraft, those two issues are diametrically opposed far more often than cooperative. Frugality typically costs more in the long run, and may cost you your life.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
Soon after I got my Comanche I had plenty of "want to do's" Then I added them up. Turbo Gami's; Engine analyzer; Speed mods, autopilot and Garmin 430 or 530. The total came to over $120k including what i had already invested.

I decided that I really needed to just enjoy my airplane and fly it. I didn't really buy it to sit behind a TV and autopilot. So I hand fly every hour. But if I want to sit and sleep I can go commercially.

Engine analyzer is nice to have, but where do you stop.

You will never recover one penny of any money you put into your airplane with the exception of up to 50% of a Major OH and possibly get 25% on a new paint job if it is not putting lipstick on a pig.

My advice fly your new to you airplane for 100 hrs before investing any money. Then think about it and fly another 100 hrs. If you still need to spend some money on it, fly it another 100 hrs.

Then Sell it and buy the plane you want. Almost always you can find a plane like you like it and buy it cheaper than what you will have in your plane by the time you get it perfect.
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I disagree. I think the engine monitor is more than nice to have. It can be a safety item, alerting you to a critical condition early and will certainly help you extend the life of your engine, if you are keeping the plane for a while,
 
John221us said:
I disagree. I think the engine monitor is more than nice to have. It can be a safety item, alerting you to a critical condition early and will certainly help you extend the life of your engine, if you are keeping the plane for a while,
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I estimate that the engine monitors in the Aztec and 310 have helped me save enough fuel to pay for an engine overhaul. Nevermind the reliability improvement...

But I do think there's less room for improvement in a Cherokee.
 
John221us said:
I disagree. I think the engine monitor is more than nice to have. It can be a safety item, alerting you to a critical condition early and will certainly help you extend the life of your engine, if you are keeping the plane for a while,
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This.

I cannot imagine, now, flying a plane without one. It can tell you so much about what is happening inside your engine, and will generally tell you when something is wrong in a particular cylinder before you can tell by any other means.

And, like Ted said, properly-used, a good engine monitor can pay its own way in fuel saved.
 
tmyers said:
Matt,

To be honest I have no idea if I have a MEL or not. I know when the EGT went out the last time my A&P told me it was not an airworthiness item. But I want to be less dependent on him for answers and more dependent on myself which is why I ask so many questions. So with that in mind what is a TSDS?

If I have a MEL where would it be? POH?

Henning: I am thinking I would rather pick up a stand alone fuel flow device similar to an EI FP-5 since the UGB doesn't keep track of fuel remaining. In order to do this however I would need to pull the old EGT to make room.
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First, the odds of the airplane having a MEL are very low, probably zero. MELs are for aircraft used for commercial purposes and rarely in low-end spam cans, even those used for training. Think Part 135 and 121.

Next TSDS - a typo. Should be TCDS. If the EGT is specificaly called out in the TCDS then it required BUT the JPI and EI are STC'd as replacement so the Old EGT monitor can be removed. However, the oil temp & pressure gages are required and the JPI oil temp & pressure are not STC replacements, only secondary, which makes no sense to me, but I live with it and don't argue with the FAA over something as trivial.
 
snip.

murphey said:
BUT the JPI and EI are STC'd as replacement so the Old EGT monitor can be removed.
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where did you see that in the STC for the 700 series?

the first paragraph on the second page says "(list of intruments) required by the original type design or if required by other FAA approval, must remain installed and operable."

I read that as not a direct replacement.

however, the EGT 100 series is.
 
I understand what you are saying Vandy and I read it the same way. Do I assume that if the original single cylinder EGT came with the airplane that it is required or is there a way to determine that?
 
SCCutler said:
And, like Ted said, properly-used, a good engine monitor can pay its own way in fuel saved.
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At $1-4K + installation costs, exactly how long will it take to get that payback?

That's the only thing stopping me from getting a monitor (in my Cherokee).
 
Based on what I am reading, with an instrument that provides the information to let me properly lean my engine, I should be able to save a gallon or two an hour. This equates to $6 to $12 an hour.

Flying a conservative 10 hours a month would save between $60 and $120 a month or $720 to $1440 a year.

With the present rebates an EI-ubg-16 or a JPI EDM-700 will cost less than $1000. Install has been quoted at 6 to 10 hours by two local shops or $450 to $750. Total purchase and install $1450 to $1750.

Worst case payback would be just over 2 years and best case just over a year.

I will be able to assist in the labor which should make is slightly less expensive.

Add to that the peace of mind of knowing and tracking my engine operation and is is not a hard decision for me.

Mileage may vary.
 
tmyers said:
I understand what you are saying Vandy and I read it the same way. Do I assume that if the original single cylinder EGT came with the airplane that it is required or is there a way to determine that?
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I was only able to take a quick glance thru the TCDS, but it will be under :Basis for certification, which for your aircraft is CAR 3 and limited parts of Part 23, (that'll i have to dig through tonight, ill have plenty of time ill be in class :))
 
VanDy said:
snip.

where did you see that in the STC for the 700 series?


the first paragraph on the second page says "(list of intruments) required by the original type design or if required by other FAA approval, must remain installed and operable."

I read that as not a direct replacement.

however, the EGT 100 series is.
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References:
1) Installation manual for the EGT-701 temperature indicator (also refered to as a scanner in the various documents). Further info, pg 3 describing the EDM-730/830 models. The 701 is the actual scanner, the 730/830 is the marketing "name" of the entire system with the color digital display. The 701 is also the scanner component for the EDM-700/800 models.

2) Pg 8 of STC #SA2586NM, STC-MEL101FF-Rev14.pdf, item 99 referencing TCDS 2A13 (I only refer to my cherokee at this point but there are 11 pages on the Master Eligibility List)

3) Same STC, "Cylinder head, oil, turbine inlet and/or exhaust gas temperature, fuel flow equipment, tachometer instruments and manifold pressure instruments required by the original type design, or if required by other FAA approval, much remain installed and operable."
Since the oil temp/pressure are required on the original TCDS 2A13 but not anything else, I'm required to keep the original oil temp/pressure instruments (and make sure they work properly) but nothing else is on the TCDS.

This is why airplane owners pretty much keep the appropriate TCDS handy for fast reference.
 
tmyers said:
Based on what I am reading, with an instrument that provides the information to let me properly lean my engine, I should be able to save a gallon or two an hour. This equates to $6 to $12 an hour.

Flying a conservative 10 hours a month would save between $60 and $120 a month or $720 to $1440 a year.

With the present rebates an EI-ubg-16 or a JPI EDM-700 will cost less than $1000. Install has been quoted at 6 to 10 hours by two local shops or $450 to $750. Total purchase and install $1450 to $1750.

Worst case payback would be just over 2 years and best case just over a year.

I will be able to assist in the labor which should make is slightly less expensive.

Add to that the peace of mind of knowing and tracking my engine operation and is is not a hard decision for me.

Mileage may vary.
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I would strongly suggest you read everything on both the JPI website (http://www.jpinstruments.com/technical-support/) and the EI website (http://www.buy-ei.com/) if you haven't already. Both will provide insight into installation times, STCs, etc.
 
I am looking at the TCDS for my airplane (2A13) but don't see any mention of the required instruments so I must be looking at the wrong info.
 
Now I get what you are saying and am agreeing with you, I thought oyu meant that the old EGT could be taken out DUE to the STC, not because it isnt a primary equipment.

murphey said:
References:
1) Installation manual for the EGT-701 temperature indicator (also refered to as a scanner in the various documents). Further info, pg 3 describing the EDM-730/830 models. The 701 is the actual scanner, the 730/830 is the marketing "name" of the entire system with the color digital display. The 701 is also the scanner component for the EDM-700/800 models.

2) Pg 8 of STC #SA2586NM, STC-MEL101FF-Rev14.pdf, item 99 referencing TCDS 2A13 (I only refer to my cherokee at this point but there are 11 pages on the Master Eligibility List)

3) Same STC, "Cylinder head, oil, turbine inlet and/or exhaust gas temperature, fuel flow equipment, tachometer instruments and manifold pressure instruments required by the original type design, or if required by other FAA approval, much remain installed and operable."
Since the oil temp/pressure are required on the original TCDS 2A13 but not anything else, I'm required to keep the original oil temp/pressure instruments (and make sure they work properly) but nothing else is on the TCDS.

This is why airplane owners pretty much keep the appropriate TCDS handy for fast reference.
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do you have copies of CAR 3 handy too? lol
 
tmyers said:
I am looking at the TCDS for my airplane (2A13) but don't see any mention of the required instruments so I must be looking at the wrong info.
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No, you're not wrong. I just read thru both the engine and aircraft TCDS. Nowhere does it require oil temp/pressure instruments. I'll be at the airport tomorrow and will ask the A&Ps. They're the ones who said I couldn't use the JPI as primary for oil temp & pressure.

Back to the STC - for CHT & EGT, the JPI can be the primary instruments. However, on the Installation document the relevant sentence is

"The Oil Temperature Probe PN 400505-C or 400505-L is installed as a supplemental oil temperature indicator."

which means it cannot be the primary instrument. I guess that's the reason the A&P didn't remove nor disable the existing oil temp/pressure gages.
 
murphey said:
No, you're not wrong. I just read thru both the engine and aircraft TCDS. Nowhere does it require oil temp/pressure instruments. I'll be at the airport tomorrow and will ask the A&Ps. They're the ones who said I couldn't use the JPI as primary for oil temp & pressure.
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Its under Certification Basis, which points you to Car 3 for the arrow III, along with parts of Part 23 as well.
 
VanDy said:
Now I get what you are saying and am agreeing with you, I thought oyu meant that the old EGT could be taken out DUE to the STC, not because it isnt a primary equipment.



do you have copies of CAR 3 handy too? lol
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No, all I have is the summary, but oil systems are under 3-4. However, since CAR 3 only goes to 1953 or so, and allegedly replaced by Part 23, not much of an issue I guess for airplanes built after that date.

Take a look at AC 23.1305, not much to say other than if it's there, it should work. Part 23 is really more for the manufacturers to get certified, not the owners. Then AC 20-88A talks about how to mark stuff (user interface in the dark ages). Can't find much (anything?) that describes how something should work, only that it should work.

Here's an interesting comment in that section under "Discussion" in AC23-17b:

"Digital fuel flowmeters are not a required powerplant instrument except for turbine engine airplanes with an Amendment 23-43 certification basis. They are optional equipment and should not be considered replacements for fuel quantity or fuel pressure indicators."
 
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murphey said:
No, you're not wrong. I just read thru both the engine and aircraft TCDS. Nowhere does it require oil temp/pressure instruments.
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You are right about that, but if you look in the back of 2A13 you will find certification basis, which points you to CAR3 for that airplane. If you look under basic equipment in CAR 3 you will find it there.
 
tmyers said:
Based on what I am reading, with an instrument that provides the information to let me properly lean my engine, I should be able to save a gallon or two an hour.
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What plane/engine do you have?

I have an O-360 in my Cherokee, and use the lean-until-rough, enchich-until-smooth-again method of leaning. I'm sure an engine monitor would help me be more precise, but I burn about 10 gph. I doubt I could reasonably expect much better than that. I doubt a monitor could pay for itself just in fuel savings for me, at least not in any reasonable length of time.

Mileage may vary
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Certainly true!
 
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Ok I really enjoy this type of searching which probably makes me a sick engineering type A personality, but I digress.

I see the following:

3.672 Fuel Quantity
3.673 Fuel Flowmeter
3.674 Oil quantity indicator. Ground means
3.675 Cylinder head temperature .... if airplane has cowl flaps
3.676 Carburetor air temperature indicating system

I still need to look at FAR 23 but I don't see EGT in CAR3

I have been told that my IO-360 could benefit from LOP operation which could yield a fuel flow as low as 9.5 GPH. I currently run around 11 in cruise with the old EGT when it works.
 
Take the EGT out, have your A&P/IA help ya with the install and send in the paperwork. :D
 
Facts:

Since you have an IO360 you can do LOP and probably save 1 gph. This will fly slower and use less HP than ROP 75%. Anyone who tells you otherwise has not done it in a Lycoming engine.

You can run LOP without engine analyzer and supposedly the guys who push LOP down in Ada OK say it is safer to run LOP than ROP without engine analyzer.

You can just pull back the gas 1 gph either way ROP and save the same $6 per hour and still go the same net speed as going LOP.

Obviously you can afford to buy yourself a nice Christmas gift so go for it. But you do not need it with or without LOP operations.

I have flown my Comanche both LOP and ROP and my speed performance per gallon of gas works out to the same either way 2 gph savings cost me 10 knots.

Finally, if you think it is for safety? Well then go for the fuel computer first as there are more deaths due to fuel out situations than engine out in any year. Fuel management is the biggest bane of our existence. Especially if you do long x-country trips.

Safety ideas: Buy a hand held battery operated radio and have your A&P put a permanent connection to your antenna for a alternator out situations. Also by an Ox system. They are great anytime you are in the air 3 hrs you get foggy. Couple of breaths of air will bring back your alertness like you cannot believe. Also flying night, ox is great to help your night vision.
 
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Here is some of the stuff out of FAR 23.

[FONT=&quot]§ 23.1305 Powerplant instruments.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The following are required powerplant instruments:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](a) For all airplanes. (1) A fuel quantity indicator for each fuel tank, installed in accordance with § 23.1337(b).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](2) An oil pressure indicator for each engine.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](3) An oil temperature indicator for each engine.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](4) An oil quantity measuring device for each oil tank which meets the requirements of § 23.1337(d).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](5) A fire warning means for those airplanes required to comply with § 23.1203.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](b) For reciprocating engine-powered airplanes. In addition to the powerplant instruments required by paragraph (a) of this section, the following powerplant instruments are required:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](1) An induction system air temperature indicator for each engine equipped with a preheater and having induction air temperature limitations that can be exceeded with preheat.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](2) A tachometer indicator for each engine.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](3) A cylinder head temperature indicator for—[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](i) Each air-cooled engine with cowl flaps;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](ii) [Reserved][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](iii) Each commuter category airplane.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](4) For each pump-fed engine, a means:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](i) That continuously indicates, to the pilot, the fuel pressure or fuel flow; or[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](ii) That continuously monitors the fuel system and warns the pilot of any fuel flow trend that could lead to engine failure.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](5) A manifold pressure indicator for each altitude engine and for each engine with a controllable propeller.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](6) For each turbocharger installation:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](i) If limitations are established for either carburetor (or manifold) air inlet temperature or exhaust gas or turbocharger turbine inlet temperature, indicators must be furnished for each temperature for which the limitation is established unless it is shown that the limitation will not be exceeded in all intended operations.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](ii) If its oil system is separate from the engine oil system, oil pressure and oil temperature indicators must be provided.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](7) A coolant temperature indicator for each liquid-cooled engine[/FONT]


I am going home now:blueplane:
 
Tony: Why do you care so much about convincing someone to not buy a piece of equipment? I've never seen someone put so much effort into talking someone out of a purchase.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Tony: Why do you care so much about convincing someone to not buy a piece of equipment? I've never seen someone put so much effort into talking someone out of a purchase.
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I really don't care. Just hoping to enlighten the topic with information and sometimes I like playing devils advocate....:) I think EA are neat and useful.

PS it goes a little further. Safety trumps everything but I like people to have knowledge which might help them safe money. But really it doesn't matter to me. I go to the air shows and spend my fair share of money on stuff that next year doesn't matter one bit. One thing you will never hear me oppose, buying more gas! :)
 
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It is all good food for thought. Tony may have missed the post about my EGT being Tango Uniform so I have to replace it with something.
 
Since you said you like adding some information, a bit more info.

Tony_Scarpelli said:
Facts:

Since you have an IO360 you can do LOP and probably save 1 gph. This will fly slower and use less HP than ROP 75%. Anyone who tells you otherwise has not done it in a Lycoming engine.
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This is true for any engine, not just Lycomings. It's basic laws of physics. On turbocharged engines, some people advocate adding manifold pressure to make up for the lost speed. On naturally aspirated, that isn't an option at typical cruising altitudes.

You can run LOP without engine analyzer and supposedly the guys who push LOP down in Ada OK say it is safer to run LOP than ROP without engine analyzer.
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There are a great deal of variables with this, and the industry as a whole would disagree with them on that point. The issue is if you do not run lean enough (or rich enough) being in what they call the "red box." That is for another discussion.

You can just pull back the gas 1 gph either way ROP and save the same $6 per hour and still go the same net speed as going LOP.
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Are you aware what you are doing when you just lean the engine out? I'm guessing not, but an engine monitor would tell you. Depending on how rich or lean you are, your CHTs can be in a very undesirable range. This also has to do with engine cooling, condition of your baffles, etc., but saying you can "just lean out" is technically true, but the cause for a number of cylinder problems. You'd be surprised how much CHTs can and do rise when you operate in the wrong range.

Obviously you can afford to buy yourself a nice Christmas gift so go for it. But you do not need it with or without LOP operations.
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In the particular case of a Cherokee, I would agree with that as a rule. What I know about Comanches and their cooling, it's not a big deal either. On an Aztec, you'll run the cylinders at somewhere near thermonuclear - ask me how I know. ;)

I have flown my Comanche both LOP and ROP and my speed performance per gallon of gas works out to the same either way 2 gph savings cost me 10 knots.
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If I'm reading what you're saying properly and you're saying you get the same MPG ROP or LOP, then you're doing it wrong.

Finally, if you think it is for safety? Well then go for the fuel computer first as there are more deaths due to fuel out situations than engine out in any year. Fuel management is the biggest bane of our existence. Especially if you do long x-country trips.

Safety ideas: Buy a hand held battery operated radio and have your A&P put a permanent connection to your antenna for a alternator out situations. Also by an Ox system. They are great anytime you are in the air 3 hrs you get foggy. Couple of breaths of air will bring back your alertness like you cannot believe. Also flying night, ox is great to help your night vision.
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I agree with all of these points, and I think the folks that say an engine monitor is for safety are overstating a bit, especially on a Cherokee. Strictly from a safety perspective, there are better places to spend your money.

What it does definitely help you with is diagnosing engine problems. The safety aspect is more pronounced on a higher powered engine (especially turbocharged). I can say that my engine monitor kept me from throwing a cylinder on the 310 at least twice, though, and there is a definite safety aspect to not losing an engine at night over hostile terrain.
 
I do have a handheld and also have an antenna connection. What I do not have is the proper cable to run between them. Have looked but haven't found. Any ideas?
 
tmyers said:
Based on what I am reading, with an instrument that provides the information to let me properly lean my engine, I should be able to save a gallon or two an hour. This equates to $6 to $12 an hour.

Flying a conservative 10 hours a month would save between $60 and $120 a month or $720 to $1440 a year.

With the present rebates an EI-ubg-16 or a JPI EDM-700 will cost less than $1000. Install has been quoted at 6 to 10 hours by two local shops or $450 to $750. Total purchase and install $1450 to $1750.

Worst case payback would be just over 2 years and best case just over a year.

I will be able to assist in the labor which should make is slightly less expensive.

Add to that the peace of mind of knowing and tracking my engine operation and is is not a hard decision for me.

Mileage may vary.
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No, best case is it pays for itself on the test flight when you notice you have a partially clogged injector nozzle and adjust the fuel flow to keep from melting down a piston and lunching your entire engine or even just a cylinder.
 
Henning,

I am with you 100% on that thought.

I am reviewing the install manuals now of the EI and the JPI units. I am leaning towards the JPI because of its fuel tracking features. EI doesn't do that. Now do I want to spend the extra $400 to $500 for the 730 over the 700.

Not really sure how the 730 will look setting on the plastic panel overlay of my Cherokee yet.
 
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