Engine Monitor

tmyers

tmyers

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Tim Myers
With my EGT gauge (single cylinder) going Tango Uniform for the second time in a year I am at the point of biting the bullet and purchasing an engine monitor. Not one of those that does everything but make coffee. but rather a unit that will provide all four EGT's, and all four CHT's. Lean find is nice too. At present I am leaning to known fuel flows.

I am torn between the JPI 700 and the EI UGB-16. They are similarly priced but through the end of December EI has a $300 rebate in affect which leans me toward the EI. I have also read here and other places that EI has better customer service.

I am considering LOP operations and realize that is not possible with my single EGT instrument, and also like the data that can be extracted from either instrument to look at recent engine performance.

With local shop labor I should be able to get it purchased and installed for about $1500 or $1600. If my A&P lets me do some of the grunt work I should be able to shave the install cost down to around $1100 or so.

I am interested on your thoughts as to which unit is better, and also which optional accessories you think would be worth while.

The optional accessories that can also be hooked to these units are as follows.


  • Oil Temp
  • Oil Pressure
  • Manifold Pressure
  • RPM
  • Fuel Flow
  • Fuel Pressure
  • Gyro Vacuum
  • Volts/Amps
  • OAT
I have all of those covered in existing gauges but wondered which if any I should include with the install.


Thoughts?
 
I just went through the same thing, and I am in the process of installing an Insight G1. The G1 has a nice color display that shows both EGTs and CHTs at the same time. It doesn't have fuel flow capability or storage, though. The storage thing was a real bummer, but the deciding factor for me was room behind the panel. The G1 only needs a few inches, but the EI needed at least 7 inches and I didn't have it.
 
John,

I really liked the insight unit but the price scared me away. What did yours run?
 
John221us said:
I just went through the same thing, and I am in the process of installing an Insight G1. The G1 has a nice color display that shows both EGTs and CHTs at the same time. It doesn't have fuel flow capability or storage, though. The storage thing was a real bummer, but the deciding factor for me was room behind the panel. The G1 only needs a few inches, but the EI needed at least 7 inches and I didn't have it.
Click to expand...

The JPI 730 is much smaller in depth and only needs about 3 in. I think JPI has a competing rebate program.
 
It ran me about $1,220 or something like that, plus installation. About the same as the EI, but the EI has a rebate right now until Dec. 31st (at least through Spruce) of $300.
 
murphey said:
The JPI 730 is much smaller in depth and only needs about 3 in. I think JPI has a competing rebate program.
Click to expand...

That is definately a nice unit, but for my needs I couldn't justify the extra $500.
 
Anyone seen (or have) the AuRACLE engine monitors in action? I spoke to one fellow at the Cardinal clinic last month who really liked it. I was curious to hear from others.
 
The JPI 730 is much smaller in depth and only needs about 3 in. I think JPI has a competing rebate program. .
Click to expand...

Hmm, Sarasota Avionics lists a $300 rebate, bringing it close. It might be good for the OP, if he has the panel space.
 
John221us said:
It ran me about $1,220 or something like that, plus installation. About the same as the EI, but the EI has a rebate right now until Dec. 31st (at least through Spruce) of $300.
Click to expand...


Was the $1220 with installation or was that the cost of the unit. If I read correctly the G1 does not have the lean find function, to get that I would need to look at the G3 which is closer to $3K.

The EI rebate is with EI so you can buy one anywhere and get the $300 back from them.
 
tmyers said:
Was the $1220 with installation or was that the cost of the unit. If I read correctly the G1 does not have the lean find function, to get that I would need to look at the G3 which is closer to $3K.

The EI rebate is with EI so you can buy one anywhere and get the $300 back from them.
Click to expand...

Installation is not in that price. My shop quoted me about 7 hours or possibly less (hopefully less, that sounds pretty high to me). That is for 4 EGT and 4 CHT probes and no other sensors. It does show lean peaks, but I guess doesn't have the advanced logic. The EI looks like a good deal, but it won't fit in my plane.
 
I was quoted 6 to 10 hours labor. Have met a couple A&P's in the area that might let me do most of the work and have them inspect and sign off for me. I have my fingers crossed.

I will need to purchase a firewall fixture to pass the wires through and the work out under the cowling looks to be pretty straight forward. The work inside however looks to be a pain in the backside. Both the EI and the JPI have buttons that are used to scroll through the various screens and with the raised plastic panel that comes with all the older Cherokees these buttons could be a huge pain. Actually saw in installation with an accessory blank off that sits in the larger hole and makes the buttons more install friendly. Both of these units have other items they can monitor listed at the beginning of this thread. My hope is that these connections could pass through the firewall and be there for future connection if desired but I am not certain of this option.

I am assuming that after this is complete I can eliminate the existing Alnor EGT and maybe install CO detector or something in the hole.

One of the items I am questioning is also whether or not I can remove the dead ADF to make room for the EI. I had an A&P tell me the old ADF can't be removed because it was on the original minimum equipment list even though it is placarded as INOP.

Nothing is easy with these upgrades is it?
 
tmyers said:
I was quoted 6 to 10 hours labor. Have met a couple A&P's in the area that might let me do most of the work and have them inspect and sign off for me. I have my fingers crossed.

I will need to purchase a firewall fixture to pass the wires through and the work out under the cowling looks to be pretty straight forward. The work inside however looks to be a pain in the backside. Both the EI and the JPI have buttons that are used to scroll through the various screens and with the raised plastic panel that comes with all the older Cherokees these buttons could be a huge pain. Actually saw in installation with an accessory blank off that sits in the larger hole and makes the buttons more install friendly. Both of these units have other items they can monitor listed at the beginning of this thread. My hope is that these connections could pass through the firewall and be there for future connection if desired but I am not certain of this option.

I am assuming that after this is complete I can eliminate the existing Alnor EGT and maybe install CO detector or something in the hole.

One of the items I am questioning is also whether or not I can remove the dead ADF to make room for the EI. I had an A&P tell me the old ADF can't be removed because it was on the original minimum equipment list even though it is placarded as INOP.

Nothing is easy with these upgrades is it?
Click to expand...

I am puting mine in the hole where my EGT is (left side of right side yoke, where often you see a Hobbs, which I don't have). Because of the travel on the yoke, I only have about 5" of depth to work with. I have gotten quotes to remove my ADF and the only gotcha was one shop insisted that all the antennas had to go to and that added a bunch of costs. Mine has been placarded since my checkride :D
 
We did a lot of research in 1996 before putting a JPI 700 in our Cheetah. Based in that experience, in 2001, we out a JPI 760 in our Cougar. And based on all that, in 2006, I put a JPI 930 in the Tiger. The equipment is first rate, tech support on installation is outstandingly and I've never had a lick of trouble.
 
When I've installed engine monitors (an Insight Gemini 1200 and a JPI 960), we just went for the straight up CHT/EGT. From my point of view, the other options aren't really necessary - they're just nice-to-haves and add to the cost. So I'd go for the straight engine monitor.

On a Cherokee with an O-360 (which I believe is what your plane has), LOP is pretty limited. Lean until rough, richen until smooth. You're not going to get much better, and an engine monitor isn't really going to help you with that. On a plane like yours, I consider them optional.

That said, I think the information is valuable. I'd just go for a straight JPI.
 
tmyers said:
I was quoted 6 to 10 hours labor. Have met a couple A&P's in the area that might let me do most of the work and have them inspect and sign off for me. I have my fingers crossed.

I will need to purchase a firewall fixture to pass the wires through and the work out under the cowling looks to be pretty straight forward. The work inside however looks to be a pain in the backside. Both the EI and the JPI have buttons that are used to scroll through the various screens and with the raised plastic panel that comes with all the older Cherokees these buttons could be a huge pain. Actually saw in installation with an accessory blank off that sits in the larger hole and makes the buttons more install friendly. Both of these units have other items they can monitor listed at the beginning of this thread. My hope is that these connections could pass through the firewall and be there for future connection if desired but I am not certain of this option.

I am assuming that after this is complete I can eliminate the existing Alnor EGT and maybe install CO detector or something in the hole.

One of the items I am questioning is also whether or not I can remove the dead ADF to make room for the EI. I had an A&P tell me the old ADF can't be removed because it was on the original minimum equipment list even though it is placarded as INOP.

Nothing is easy with these upgrades is it?
Click to expand...

I had a broken hobbs meter at the bottom of my cherokee panel, just to the right of the yoke. I had the JPI 730 installed there. Yes, a small amount of cutting on the plastic panel, but the hole for the hobbs was about the same size (might have needed a bit of enlarging, don't remember) and was easy to install. Anywhere else on the panel, due to the rectangle shape, didn't fit.
 
Another thing to look at is how you get data OUT of the different unit for analysis. Dealing with screwed up USB to serial converters isn't high on my list of "fun".

Perfect world, what you want is a unit that has a USB port on the FRONT that accepts a USB stick formatted FAT-32 and does its own copying.

I don't remember any of them doing that, last time I looked. I found all the methods to be relatively stupid that required a PC be drug out to the airplane.
 
denverpilot said:
Another thing to look at is how you get data OUT of the different unit for analysis. Dealing with screwed up USB to serial converters isn't high on my list of "fun".

Perfect world, what you want is a unit that has a USB port on the FRONT that accepts a USB stick formatted FAT-32 and does its own copying.

I don't remember any of them doing that, last time I looked. I found all the methods to be relatively stupid that required a PC be drug out to the airplane.
Click to expand...

The JPI x30 models all have a USB port on the front.
 
denverpilot said:
Another thing to look at is how you get data OUT of the different unit for analysis. Dealing with screwed up USB to serial converters isn't high on my list of "fun".

Perfect world, what you want is a unit that has a USB port on the FRONT that accepts a USB stick formatted FAT-32 and does its own copying.

I don't remember any of them doing that, last time I looked. I found all the methods to be relatively stupid that required a PC be drug out to the airplane.
Click to expand...

The JPI 730 has a USB on the front and the Insight G2 uses an SD card (pretty cool). That is a downside of the EI, you need to hook it up to an RS232 port. The G1 that I ordered doesn't even offer storage. It has an SD slot for future upgrades, though :mad2: just to rub it in.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
On a Cherokee with an O-360 (which I believe is what your plane has), LOP is pretty limited. Lean until rough, richen until smooth. You're not going to get much better, and an engine monitor isn't really going to help you with that. On a plane like yours, I consider them optional.
Click to expand...

Would LOP be a better thing to consider if my Lycoming is an IO-360?

By the way I would love the JPI-730, but at $1800 it is double the cost of the EI, unless someone knows something i don't know.
 
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tmyers said:
Would LOP be a better thing to consider if my Lycoming is an IO-360?

By the way I would love the JPI-730, but at $1800 it is double the cost of the EI, unless someone knows something i don't know.
Click to expand...

There is a $300 rebate on that. It is a bigger and easier to read screen and easier to download the trending. You are looking at a $500 difference, basically for the larger screen and color. When you add in labor, that is no more than 20% to 25%. It doesn't sound like it will provide any additional functionality, though.
 
tmyers said:
Definitely sexier though
Click to expand...

Yes, there is something to be said for that. Some might view it as lipstick on a pig, but on the other hand, you will enjoy watching every time you fly and it might help sell the plane someday.:yes:
 
tmyers said:
Would LOP be a better thing to consider if my Lycoming is an IO-360?

By the way I would love the JPI-730, but at $1800 it is double the cost of the EI, unless someone knows something i don't know.
Click to expand...

If it's an IO-360 you probably have better balance from the factory. I also find that the IO-360s seem to respond well to GAMIjectors.

The fuel flow might help you out in that regard since your plane doesn't have one, but now you're looking at spending more money. Fuel flow is nice because, once you figure out your power setting, you can just lean to the fuel flow and that will get you about 90% of where you want to be.
 
I wouldn't be using all the information because I wouldn't get the full flow option bigger is much easier to see when leaning to LOP operation. I would just have to weigh the cost difference on a unit that does the same basic work.

I will weigh the options
 
Look on the used market too, lots of folks going glass and ditching their nice JPIs etc. Seen a few for 6-700, probably go swing one for 500 if you look and are patient.
 
tmyers said:
The optional accessories that can also be hooked to these units are as follows.


  • Oil Temp
  • Oil Pressure
  • Manifold Pressure
  • RPM
  • Fuel Flow
  • Fuel Pressure
  • Gyro Vacuum
  • Volts/Amps
  • OAT
I have all of those covered in existing gauges but wondered which if any I should include with the install.
Thoughts?
Click to expand...
as a mechanic who has installed and worked with both, I prefer the JPI, CHT/EGT are very useful for troubleshooting, MAP, FUEL FLOW, FUEL PRESS, and Volts are also very useful to troubleshoot engine issues. Most aircraft have an amp meter, but not a volt meter and hooking in a meter to do electrical, alternator troubleshooting isn't always the easiest.
The nicest thing about these meters is that they will call your attention to problems faster than your normal instrument scan, or even let you know NOW rather than trying to recall what happened later at the shop.
you may have issues getting rid of any original airframe gauges as most of the time they are still original equipment.
 
If the engine monitor I install has an stc for my aircraft do I need to hang onto the old EGT?

One of the nice things about most of the engine monitors is that I wouldn't have to purchase and install the add ons at this time. I could install them as EGT/CHT only and then decide that I want to add Volts or Oil Temp or what ever.

I have thought about fuel flow in an engine monitor but EI and others have stand alone digital fuel flow devices for around $500. This is probably less then the cost of the Engine monitor with the FF option and then purchasing the appropriate FF sensing device.

For some reason my aircraft has the ADF compass card installed just to the left of the HI and the Turn indicator is to the left of the ADF compass card. Idealy I would like to pull the adf instrument and move the turn indicator into the six pack area and would use the empty hole for which ever engine monitor I choose. This would make it an easy spot to be seen.

I am not sure how the JPI-730 would work with the plastic overlay on my panel though.
 
tmyers said:
If the engine monitor I install has an stc for my aircraft do I need to hang onto the old EGT?
Click to expand...

Depends on what the STC says. If the STC gives approval for use as primary instrument then you won't need the old one. The UBG-16 is not primary in the 'kota.

tmyers said:
One of the nice things about most of the engine monitors is that I wouldn't have to purchase and install the add ons at this time. I could install them as EGT/CHT only and then decide that I want to add Volts or Oil Temp or what ever.
Click to expand...

All monitors have limits. On the UBG-16 it's 16 channels so only that many inputs are possible. I'm maxed out with TIT and fuel flow on the 'kota (6 cylinder engine).

tmyers said:
I have thought about fuel flow in an engine monitor but EI and others have stand alone digital fuel flow devices for around $500. This is probably less then the cost of the Engine monitor with the FF option and then purchasing the appropriate FF sensing device.
Click to expand...

The UBG-16 does not track total fuel use so that's a problem. The digital fuel flow devices will require a sensor just like one of the engine monitors will.
 
The price I saw on the digital flow instrument included the appropriate flow sensor. If i understand correctly I would program the fuel on board before start up and the instrument would keep track of fuel used and fuel remaining based on the fuel burn rate.

Are my assumptions correct?
 
tmyers said:
The price I saw on the digital flow instrument included the appropriate flow sensor. If i understand correctly I would program the fuel on board before start up and the instrument would keep track of fuel used and fuel remaining based on the fuel burn rate.

Are my assumptions correct?
Click to expand...

It seems you understand correctly.

One other comment on the EGT. The primary instrument in your aircraft may not be required. You may want to check the type certificate or the minimum equipment list in the POH.
 
Good point, I will do that tonight. Would the same hold true for the inop ADF? I had an AI tell me the ADF could not be removed even though it was inoperative.

Can the MEL be revised and approved by a FSDO?

I have learned more in the last three weeks on this board than I have picked up in the last year from other sources.

Great bunch of folks here.
 
tmyers said:
Can the MEL be revised and approved by a FSDO?
Click to expand...

Do you actually have an MEL list? Chances are good that you are operating on the TSDS, but you could have an MEL. If you do the MEL is only going to tell you what you can have INOP and still fly, not what is type certificated for the aircraft.
 
tmyers said:
With my EGT gauge (single cylinder) going Tango Uniform for the second time in a year I am at the point of biting the bullet and purchasing an engine monitor. Not one of those that does everything but make coffee. but rather a unit that will provide all four EGT's, and all four CHT's. Lean find is nice too. At present I am leaning to known fuel flows.

I am torn between the JPI 700 and the EI UGB-16. They are similarly priced but through the end of December EI has a $300 rebate in affect which leans me toward the EI. I have also read here and other places that EI has better customer service.

I am considering LOP operations and realize that is not possible with my single EGT instrument, and also like the data that can be extracted from either instrument to look at recent engine performance.

With local shop labor I should be able to get it purchased and installed for about $1500 or $1600. If my A&P lets me do some of the grunt work I should be able to shave the install cost down to around $1100 or so.

I am interested on your thoughts as to which unit is better, and also which optional accessories you think would be worth while.

The optional accessories that can also be hooked to these units are as follows.


  • Oil Temp
  • Oil Pressure
  • Manifold Pressure
  • RPM
  • Fuel Flow
  • Fuel Pressure
  • Gyro Vacuum
  • Volts/Amps
  • OAT
I have all of those covered in existing gauges but wondered which if any I should include with the install.


Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Don't forget to get the fuel flow sender, it's worth every dime. What the factory gauge is a pressure gauge marked in flow which is correct only when the system settings are correct.
 
flyingmoose said:
Do you actually have an MEL list? Chances are good that you are operating on the TSDS, but you could have an MEL. If you do the MEL is only going to tell you what you can have INOP and still fly, not what is type certificated for the aircraft.
Click to expand...

Matt,

To be honest I have no idea if I have a MEL or not. I know when the EGT went out the last time my A&P told me it was not an airworthiness item. But I want to be less dependent on him for answers and more dependent on myself which is why I ask so many questions. So with that in mind what is a TSDS?

If I have a MEL where would it be? POH?

Henning: I am thinking I would rather pick up a stand alone fuel flow device similar to an EI FP-5 since the UGB doesn't keep track of fuel remaining. In order to do this however I would need to pull the old EGT to make room.
 
tmyers said:
Matt,

To be honest I have no idea if I have a MEL or not. I know when the EGT went out the last time my A&P told me it was not an airworthiness item. But I want to be less dependent on him for answers and more dependent on myself which is why I ask so many questions. So with that in mind what is a TSDS?

If I have a MEL where would it be? POH?

Henning: I am thinking I would rather pick up a stand alone fuel flow device similar to an EI FP-5 since the UGB doesn't keep track of fuel remaining. In order to do this however I would need to pull the old EGT to make room.
Click to expand...

I have the JPI 760 with fuel flow hooked up to my 430, not does it just track fuel remaining in time, pounds and gallons, it calculates reserves on landing using current data which is really nice when you're trying to fine tune your speed in a headwind to maximize range. No real problem using a second instrument, just another space in the panel taken.
 
I have been looking at the EI UGB-16 or the JPI EDM700. Both are available with fuel flow. I am not sure of the price difference between the 700 and the 760 (Twin right).

Researched a bit more seems that the EDM-700 does all that you say if purchased with the fuel flow option. I don't know if the UBG will give me that information with the fuel flow module, at least I don't see it in the operators manual.
 
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tmyers said:
I have been looking at the EI UGB-16 or the JPI EDM700. Both are available with fuel flow. I am not sure of the price difference between the 700 and the 760 (Twin right).
Click to expand...

760 is the Twin version of the 700 I believe, yes.
 
tmyers said:
I have been looking at the EI UGB-16 or the JPI EDM700. Both are available with fuel flow. I am not sure of the price difference between the 700 and the 760 (Twin right).
Click to expand...

The insight G2 comes with fuel totalization and includes the sensor (as well as voltage, fuel flow, etc.) and has the Lean/Rich of peak logic you wanted. It is a bit more pricey, but does include the sensor.
 
tmyers said:
Matt,

To be honest I have no idea if I have a MEL or not. I know when the EGT went out the last time my A&P told me it was not an airworthiness item. But I want to be less dependent on him for answers and more dependent on myself which is why I ask so many questions. So with that in mind what is a TSDS?

If I have a MEL where would it be? POH?

Henning: I am thinking I would rather pick up a stand alone fuel flow device similar to an EI FP-5 since the UGB doesn't keep track of fuel remaining. In order to do this however I would need to pull the old EGT to make room.
Click to expand...

It would be listed in your POH, TCDS (type certificate data sheet) is available on faa.gov


-VanDy
 
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