Emergencies - VFR in the Clouds

Yep, I've heard ATC asking other pilots for sky conditions in such cases. In fact, I remember one time I was out over eastern Kentucky and they asked me (I was on top, but could see the end, and I am instrument rated anyhow). I reported that it looked absolutely clear if they wanted to go just west of whatever major area we were over and they could probably come back underneath.
 
WannFly said:
OK so a follow up question from a newbie, if u have flight following, won't they warn u that there may be layer and divert?

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They do not know... All they can see on their radar is the precipitations and their intensity. Otherwise, they rely on METAR/TAF etc to know the weather. In fact, they see less than you since they are not likely to have windows where they are.
 
genna said:
They do not know... All they can see on their radar is the precipitations and their intensity. Otherwise, they rely on METAR/TAF etc to know the weather. In fact, they see less than you since they are not likely to have windows where they are.
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Even if they had a window, the view isn't that good. The propensity is to put the en route and terminal (and even in prototype now, the tower) facilities, far removed from the area they control.

Amusingly, one of my favorite places to hold on days I can't get into the IAD class B is right over the top of the Potomac TRACON building.

PCT: Navion 5327K, Say Position
27K: 3000' right over the tracon.
PCT: Navion 5327K Radar Contact over the TRACON.
 
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Clark1961 said:
No, not a ramp check. Should there be an investigation and the pilot survived then they would likely get a 709 checkride if they wished to keep their certificate. I'm thinking this situation is a little past the counseling level.
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From my understanding, a VFR pilot who has a accidental flight into IMC won't hear much from the feds, fed investigations into anyone who had a 7700 level event...that would set a VERY deadly precedence, if you're in trouble and need help just ask.


It's also my understanding that ATC will use any tool in their belt to help, some might have to be requested, even if you're not IFR rated, if you ask I'd wager they will put you into a ILS or a PAR, or if the weather works simply vector you down below the decks.

As far as viz goes, ATC can't see that on their radar, not how it works, they go off metars TAFs and pireps, they see water / ice / snow, but low viz ain't going to show, the best indication of that for a VFR pilot are your eyeballs, trending your altimeter settings and watching your OAT.
 
I wouldn't be too sure. The FAA has refused to indemnify pilots for rules violations when they characterize the emergency as being "one of the pilot's own making."
 
bobmrg said:
This might be covered in some of the videos suggested, but...

A long time ago, before videos, the AOPA wrote up a procedure for the flying part (declaring an emergency is a no-brainer): Carb heat on (if present), throttle back to mag check RPM. Two notches of flaps or as close to it as you can get. Wings level with rudder, using attitude indicator and heading indicator for guidance. Trim for 70 knots or so and just sink into the clouds.

Bob
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I remember reading that even longer ago that the accepted way to get below a cloud layer was to put the airplane into a spin above the clouds, then spin through the cloud layer, then recover under the clouds....:loco:

And hope the clouds don't go to the ground....:fcross:
 
MAKG1 said:
ATC knows where significant precipitation is, but generally not clouds. That is, unless other pilots tell them. METARs are not nearly enough. I did an IFR ELT search recently, and watched a BIG hole in the undercast open up, and then close, with all the nearby METARs saying OVC024 the whole time.
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Depends on whether or not the controller has selected a filter on his scope that decreases/eliminates precip. As far as measuring cloud heights, that's done on airports w/ cloud measuring device, ceilometers, which "shoots" a beam up to measure it. So it could measure 500' and 10 miles away the cloud base could be lower or higher. Weather observers and other automated, even balloons, can and are used. Here's a pretty good explanation from Boldmethod:

http://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/weather/how-cloud-ceilings-are-reported/
 
Zeldman said:
I remember reading that even longer ago that the accepted way to get below a cloud layer was to put the airplane into a spin above the clouds, then spin through the cloud layer, then recover under the clouds....:loco:

And hope the clouds don't go to the ground....:fcross:
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Yup I've done that a few times....:rolleyes: :D
 
Here's the AOPA Air Safety Institute video someone mentioned towards the beginning of the thread.

 
Somedudeintn said:
I'm an IR pilot and part of a club that has an IFR certified 172 and a non IFR certified 150 (but it does have a single nav- no glideslope). I've had this same thought and if I got stuck on top in the 150 (placarded not for IFR - I guess it needs a transponder check) I'd declare an emergency so I could deviate from the FARs and get through the clouds. Declaring an emergency in that situation feels a little silly, but I don't think there would be another legal way to get down.
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You don't have to "declare an emergency" for it to be an emergency.
 
mscard88 said:
Depends on whether or not the controller has selected a filter on his scope that decreases/eliminates precip. As far as measuring cloud heights, that's done on airports w/ cloud measuring device, ceilometers, which "shoots" a beam up to measure it. So it could measure 500' and 10 miles away the cloud base could be lower or higher. Weather observers and other automated, even balloons, can and are used. Here's a pretty good explanation from Boldmethod:

http://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/weather/how-cloud-ceilings-are-reported/
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Also depends on the definition of "significant precipitation." Light may (TRACON) or may not (ARTCC) be reported. Moderate thru Extreme better be displayed unless the intensity level (1-6) is somehow inop or dealing with analog radar. Don't think too many analog facilities are left.
 
Zeldman said:
I remember reading that even longer ago that the accepted way to get below a cloud layer was to put the airplane into a spin above the clouds, then spin through the cloud layer, then recover under the clouds....:loco:

And hope the clouds don't go to the ground....:fcross:
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If that's the only tool you've got, that's what you use.
 
Yep, the real killer is not that a non-instrument rated pilots don't know how to fly on instruments, it's that they don't realize when they need to be flying on instruments. Staring out into the murk (or darkness) is going to give you a very short period of time before it goes to heck.
 
mscard88 said:
Which, thick or thin? Round or square pizzas?
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I'm from Chicago, and although I do enjoy a good Deep Dish now and then.... Vito & Nicks (the ORIGINAL) on Cicero - Paper Thin, used to be served on napkins only, amazing taste. Good stuff! Highly recommend....
 
I'm Italian, my grammom made 'em thick, like at least an inch, and I like 'em that way. But thin will do too!
 
USAF-LT-G said:
Ok before ANYONE starts up the "What's this thread really about...." commentary.... Let me preface the topic by stating:

1) I AM NOT suggesting DOING any of the following

2) I have never DONE the following

3) I have never put myself in the situation described below where this was necessary

4) This is a completely HYPOTHETICAL ONLY question, the "what if"

5) This is INTENDED to only be a question for the purpose of addressing absolute emergency situations.

6) No one should EVER intentionally put themselves in a situation as the scenario (posed as a question) should ever occur.... proper flight planning, personal minimums, and proficiency should always be in place no matter what.

Ok, now that' I've clarified all that, and hopefully tamed the people ready to "pounce" and ask "why are you thinking about this...."

Let's, pose a real example. You're a VFR only pilot, you're on a long cross country somewhere... who knows where. You're filed, you're in the air halfway to your destination, you spot a layer and you decide to climb above. You maintain another hour in these conditions, and your fuel is running low and you're approaching BINGO..... Visibility is above 10SM, yet you see no holes to poke through as far as the eye can see. You're on Flight Following, but you're not IFR. You've got plenty of airports below... but they're below the ceiling you're riding on top of, and hell... let's just assume they're in IFR conditions as well.

Given all of the above or something similar (for which you should have never gotten yourself into in the first place). Is there ANYTIME or a situation like above, a VFR pilot can in an emergency be directed through a layer of clouds to some airport to get to safety. I am certain somewhere along the line, some moron pilot somewhere has found himself/herself in a situation like this. I'm just curious how the idiot pilot gets down without killing himself/herself and a potential of other people.

I can't stress again, the importance of never getting into this situation.... but, I'm SURE it's probably happened somewhere somehow. Just curious how the heck this works.
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Although its not exactly the case you were describing, here is a video of an IFR guy getting stuck above icing conditions, in a non FIKI plane, trying to work with ATC to get down.

 
USAF-LT-G said:
I'm from Chicago...
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I'm sorry to hear that and I hope you're safe, if you can make your way across the boarder I hear Canada takes refugees from war torn parts of the world in, I'm sure Americans trapped in the violence of Chicago would be welcomed. Good luck and godspeed!
 
James331 said:
I'm sorry to hear that and I hope you're safe, if you can make your way across the boarder I hear Canada takes refugees from war torn parts of the world in, I'm sure Americans trapped in the violence of Chicago would be welcomed. Good luck and godspeed!
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LOL!!! Thankfully I don't live ANYWHERE close to the city. Northwest Burbs.... actually I hate going into the City. Not for me.
 
exncsurfer said:
Although its not exactly the case you were describing, here is a video of an IFR guy getting stuck above icing conditions, in a non FIKI plane, trying to work with ATC to get down.

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I don't get why he didn't just stay below the layer for that second leg, I mean he was obviously concerned about ice, seems the logical move? Armchair QBing I know
 
exncsurfer said:
Although its not exactly the case you were describing, here is a video of an IFR guy getting stuck above icing conditions, in a non FIKI plane, trying to work with ATC to get down.

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He exaggerated the situation. He had maybe a 500 ft layer and good VFR below. His "icing layer" would have been trace at most. Still should've stayed below if he wasn't sure about the destination. He also should've requested an IFR clearance long before he violated VFR cloud clearances. A "SVFR decent" was a waste of a transmission. I can almost hear the gears turning in the controller's head on that one. Then it looks like he forgot to drop the gear until over the approach lights.

A good vid on what not to do but I think most of us have been in those situations before.
 
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James331 said:
I don't get why he didn't just stay below the layer for that second leg, I mean he was obviously concerned about ice, seems the logical move? Armchair QBing I know
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He mentioned that he wanted the tailwinds.
 
James331 said:
From my understanding, a VFR pilot who has a accidental flight into IMC won't hear much from the feds, fed investigations into anyone who had a 7700 level event...that would set a VERY deadly precedence, if you're in trouble and need help just ask.


It's also my understanding that ATC will use any tool in their belt to help, some might have to be requested, even if you're not IFR rated, if you ask I'd wager they will put you into a ILS or a PAR, or if the weather works simply vector you down below the decks.

As far as viz goes, ATC can't see that on their radar, not how it works, they go off metars TAFs and pireps, they see water / ice / snow, but low viz ain't going to show, the best indication of that for a VFR pilot are your eyeballs, trending your altimeter settings and watching your OAT.
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All well said. I'd just like to emphasize the "won't hear much from the feds" part.
 
Zeldman said:
I remember reading that even longer ago that the accepted way to get below a cloud layer was to put the airplane into a spin above the clouds, then spin through the cloud layer, then recover under the clouds....:loco:

And hope the clouds don't go to the ground....:fcross:
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I read that too. It might have been a Yeager book, but I don't remember for sure. The one I remember was about military pilots and they would fly to some sort of beacon located on the field and then put it into a spin. Break out, recover, and come into land.
 
If it looks like it might be easier to go over the top than to try and go under, then your best bet is to land.

Unless, of course, you have the skills to get down through the murk when the forecast turns out to be less than 100% accurate.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
If it looks like it might be easier to go over the top than to try and go under, then your best bet is to land.

Unless, of course, you have the skills to get down through the murk when the forecast turns out to be less than 100% accurate.
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That.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
If it looks like it might be easier to go over the top than to try and go under, then your best bet is to land.

Unless, of course, you have the skills to get down through the murk when the forecast turns out to be less than 100% accurate.
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All depends on the weather details. What is the potential for icing in the clouds? Is it easier because the bases are very low, or some other reason? If it's because of turbulence down low AND you can confidently say there will be no clouds at your destination, then going over the top is not unsafe. But the devil is in the details: I've only done that twice as a VFR-only pilot in almost 15 years of flying. The first time was a month after my PPL checkride, from KMCD to 76G, when the southern part of the state was crystal clear and high pressure was moving in. The second time was a few years later, flying from 76G to KFNT, when a narrow and fairly thin band of clouds hung between me and Flint. There was no real reason to go above, but I knew I could get down if I did, so I did.

Today I certainly have the skills to get down through a layer even though I'm far out of currency, but unless those conditions were met, I still wouldn't do it unless I was IFR-legal. Fear of FAA consequences is not a good reason not to declare an emergency, but if the emergency is of your own creation, there is still a chance you will have to do a 709 ride to keep your flying privileges. Better in any case to err on the side of caution, IMHO.
 
WannFly said:
Good to know, I always thought flight following is an additional safety net... guess not when it comes to weather
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For what it's worth, yesterday Memphis Center pointed out moderate precip areas to me since I don't have reliable radar on board (ADS-B radar can be trusted only so much). That was helpful and we started dancing around cells. Conversely, when I asked Evansville Approach if he had any data on cloud bases, he read to me the ATIS from the field, which was 45 minutes old. Not helpful, although I realize that without an automated system at the field, he has to rely on pilot reports. On my way back north, I heard Evansville Approach asking a Citation for a pirep on the bases. Whether I had anything to do with that from my earlier question an hour or two before, I don't know.
 
Controllers don't have a crystal ball, and if there's no precip, they might not have a clue about conditions in your block o' the sky. . .at least, that's been my experience - sometimes they ask, other times I mention I'm in the clag, and he/she didn't know, and will offer a different altitude (I think because I'm in a 172, they figure I'd prefer to not be in the clouds - kinda nice to offer, actually). . . I don't know how a controller can "direct" a pilot through a layer.

The best you might get is vectors to a VFR field, if one is in range. Not sure what else they could do for someone in that spot, unless the controller is a CFII and willing to help you with your scan.

Spinning down seems kinda rad, though - popping out under a 1,000 ceiling, rotating like a demented pinwheel, doing a recovery without a secondary stall . . .I think you might go hyper-focus on the turn-and-bank, start a gentle descent, and not worry too much about the rest, just use the rudders and pray. Best bet, I think, is a wings level descent near the closest airport with a decent ceiling.
 
azure said:
All depends on the weather details. What is the potential for icing in the clouds? Is it easier because the bases are very low, or some other reason? If it's because of turbulence down low AND you can confidently say there will be no clouds at your destination, then going over the top is not unsafe. But the devil is in the details: I've only done that twice as a VFR-only pilot in almost 15 years of flying. The first time was a month after my PPL checkride, from KMCD to 76G, when the southern part of the state was crystal clear and high pressure was moving in. The second time was a few years later, flying from 76G to KFNT, when a narrow and fairly thin band of clouds hung between me and Flint. There was no real reason to go above, but I knew I could get down if I did, so I did.

Today I certainly have the skills to get down through a layer even though I'm far out of currency, but unless those conditions were met, I still wouldn't do it unless I was IFR-legal. Fear of FAA consequences is not a good reason not to declare an emergency, but if the emergency is of your own creation, there is still a chance you will have to do a 709 ride to keep your flying privileges. Better in any case to err on the side of caution, IMHO.
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Yup, lots of variables.

I do it over marine layer all the time, and I have ever since my primary checkride. Marine layer seldom exceeds 2500 foot tops, or extends more than 50 miles inland. As long as reasonable fuel reserves are kept, there is always an out.
 
Haven't seen it with Marine layers but a lot of times with radiation fog you'll get a temperature inversion. Creates an effect on ATC radar called anomalous propagation (AP). Not that you could really use it to provide any advisories to fog but it sure looked wild.:)
 
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