Electric Harley-Davidsons?

[old_biker]

I paid 10,500 for this. It would cost 40-50k to make a Harley that would run with it, and it wouldn't be reliable.

Of course Harley has always been about style, and I get that too, but they're going to have to do something different to survive. Frankly the picture isn't rosy for motorcycling in general. It faces many of the same headwinds as GA.

View attachment 76802

I went to triumph dealer when I was looking for a replacement, they snubbed me & refused to talk to me, & I went during an open house, & after seeing them go after clean cut people & give demo rides, & asked me if I was at right place, every single person there working snubbed me, & even food, they gave a skimpy portion that even person I sat next to noticed, I walked out & did email company owner & corporate, I was ready to buy, but a few weeks later I found my current bike.

 

[SoonerAviator]

I’ve heard the whole “loud pipes are a myth, only the people behind you can hear you” baloney several times. It’s nonsense. I drive a car (and a pickup), too. In every single one of them, I can very clearly hear a motorcycle with louder than stock pipes as it approaches the blind spot. By the time it’s alongside it’s quite noticeable. Of course I don’t have the thumpa-stereo shaking the trunk lid.

And yes, only an idiot rides alongside or in the blind spot... but passing a vehicle does sort of require that you pass through both of these places. Doing so at high speed is a great way to get q-balled by some nincompoop who hasn’t yet learned what mirrors, turn signals, or eyeballs are for.

I dunno. I think it may have had some truth to it long ago, but modern vehicles have excellent sound proofing. Add in a radio and/or a sporty exhaust and there’s no hearing a 110-cubic inch engine until the pipes are right beside you. In my truck with a mild Magnaflow catback exhaust and factory stereo w/factory subwoofer, there’s no hearing any Harley or rice rocket until we’re side-by-side.

I always developed a good scan of my rear view mirrors so that I rarely have anyone sneak up beside me. I also have trailer tow mirrors on my truck so there aren’t any blind spots. While I ride infrequently since I don’t own a motorcycle, I wouldn’t trust my life to “loud pipes.”

 

[old_biker]

I dunno. I think it may have had some truth to it long ago, but modern vehicles have excellent sound proofing. Add in a radio and/or a sporty exhaust and there’s no hearing a 110-cubic inch engine until the pipes are right beside you. In my truck with a mild Magnaflow catback exhaust and factory stereo w/factory subwoofer, there’s no hearing any Harley or rice rocket until we’re side-by-side.

I always developed a good scan of my rear view mirrors so that I rarely have anyone sneak up beside me. I also have trailer tow mirrors on my truck so there aren’t any blind spots. While I ride infrequently since I don’t own a motorcycle, I wouldn’t trust my life to “loud pipes.”

you are so correct on almost all bikes, very few are so obnoxiously loud you would hear, my 73 was people could hear me over 5 miles away inside businesses, but I had to wear ear plugs if riding over 30 miles, or it would be 2-3 days before I could hear normally again. I drag raced a few rice rockets, people couldn't believe they couldn't hear their own bike, or even feel, only heard & felt pulses from mine. would have to shift their bikes bases only on what their tach said, as couldn't feel or hear engines, lol, I seen a very few others. maybe 20 or so in 30+ years of riding that's close for loudness, but it would be same to think of a funny car drag motor being used as a daily ride, you would hear it a ways away. but I was totally into the biker life, & wanted one of the most obnoxious & fastest Harleys around.

but with that said, I will never ride anything anywhere remotely as loud ever again. my current bike, you would hear me only if close, its still a little louder than average, but it does have full length pipes & mufflers.

 

[Kenny Phillips]

About $30K, 94 mile range mixed driving.
https://www.harley-davidson.com/us/en/motorcycles/future-vehicles/livewire.html

I've managed not to merge into motorcyclists riding in my blind spot because I heard them...loud pipes save lives. Cars don't see them either- sometimes motorcycles don't trip the blind spot sensors on cars.

If it takes a loud pipe (which are generally pointing the other way) to keep you from hitting a biker, you need better driving technique. Loud pipes annoy people. I say this as someone who has ridden a blown alcohol drag bike down Pickle Road in Akron, where speed was invisible to the cops, as Art Arfon's speed shop was there.

 

[DaleB]

I dunno. I think it may have had some truth to it long ago, but modern vehicles have excellent sound proofing. Add in a radio and/or a sporty exhaust and there’s no hearing a 110-cubic inch engine until the pipes are right beside you. In my truck with a mild Magnaflow catback exhaust and factory stereo w/factory subwoofer, there’s no hearing any Harley or rice rocket until we’re side-by-side.

I always developed a good scan of my rear view mirrors so that I rarely have anyone sneak up beside me. I also have trailer tow mirrors on my truck so there aren’t any blind spots. While I ride infrequently since I don’t own a motorcycle, I wouldn’t trust my life to “loud pipes.”

Well, of course not. That would be idiotic, and I never suggested that. What bugs me is the people who seem to insist that sound travels only in one direction. If that were true the noise wouldn't chase off deer a quarter mile up the road, as I saw happen at least a dozen times.

Yes, as I specifically pointed out, you in your truck with loud exhaust and a stereo cranked up probably can't hear the bikes -- or pretty much anything else. Anything that will give a slight edge when trying to get the attention of Billy Facebook and Suzie Instagram as they wander down the road with their nose stuffed into their phones, though, is probably worthwhile. We were fairly large (two people on one of the biggest bikes available, often with a cargo trailer in tow). We had on every single light the bike had. People still didn't bother to look, or they'd have seen us plain as day.

It's not just the bike, though. I regularly see people drifting into our lane when we're in the F150 or anything else. It seems that mirrors are purely decorative for a good percentage of drivers, since they apparently never actually use them to pay any attention to anything other than what they can see directly in front as they glance up from their screen. The few extra dB of sound from the bike probably won't save you more than occasionally, but it couldn't possibly hurt. Other than your hearing, hence the ear plugs.

 

[Gerhardt]

1. First, as to electric bikes, they're here and in several years will take over. Like general aviation, HD is nowhere near competitive in this market because the new generation of riders' definition of cool isn't what HD offers.

2. I'm not opposed to an electric bike, but it's nothing I'd spend $30K on. I was a Softail guy and nothing else interested me. Electric would still be fun, but would really be nothing more than a scooter to me.

3. I quit riding a few years ago after totalling 4 bikes in a span of 2 years. I've ridden since I was maybe 8, starting with dirt bikes on the farm, and I still jones to get back on a Softail, but I'm done.

The first one was an elderly guy who didn't see me from his stop sign made a left turn in front of me. We'd have been fine, but he panicked and hit his brakes, stopping directly in front of me. I can still see his mouth and eyes get huge when he noticed me.

The second one was passing a combine. I sounded the horn, kept a wide berth in the passing lane...the farmer never even looked over his shoulder before turning into me.

The third one was going out to see dad, who lived on a narrow gravel road. The neighbor had a fence that opened into the road just over the crest of a hill. I was going about 30 or so when I hit the brakes and it was like being on ice.

The last one was a woman not paying attention in heavy morning traffic and abruptly changing lanes right into me.

4. I hate loud pipes and think they should be outlawed. It's no different than the thug who wants to play his music so that everyone within 20 car lengths has to hear it.

 

[Ted]

Well if Harley priced fairly & correctly, & not with false HYPE!, I am someone that you almost never see, you ever hear about flipped patch riders, those that love the brand but refuse to support the factory? I am the guy that walked into a dealership & gets shunned even when walked in to buy some oil for my bike, anyway looking at models, nothing prices evenly with options across the board, & I am going to mention "road King" all the HYPE, well in old days it was called an Electraglide Stadard, a base model, but then became overpriced with Hype.

Majority of bikes I have bought, all are paid for, I found older used ones & either rebuilt, or built for owner, then bought from owner & changed to my standards. my newest bike I still cant believe I bought a twincam, but some young yuppie bought it new in 2007, & didn't put 2k miles on it 8 years, then sold it for a price that slapped me in the face, so yes I wound up with it. then I wheeled & dealed & have a slight project early 90's Electraglide with a fresh engine. I forget the year, but I have title & would have to look to see, I have a panhead project chopper to eventually build with parts from 5 different deceased biker friends, a few Shovelheads, 1 of which basically had a nasty drag engine, & I toured a lot of the USA with in my youth, 1 old 45" flathead, & a nice old Panhead, plus a couple old BSA bikes.

We did a modified version of that. When we were looking at our Harleys that we have now, we intended to use them on longer trips, and so the 6-speed transmission was important to me. In 2011 we found my 2009 bike with 4k miles on it, way cheaper than new. Got a great deal on it.

I then found my wife's 2007 Street Glide, which had originally been an Ultra Classic but had been dropped and so was rebuilt as a Street Glide. Got that for a screaming deal.

Haven't bought new, and really don't think we would.

I paid 10,500 for this. It would cost 40-50k to make a Harley that would run with it, and it wouldn't be reliable.

Of course Harley has always been about style, and I get that too, but they're going to have to do something different to survive. Frankly the picture isn't rosy for motorcycling in general. It faces many of the same headwinds as GA.

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I'll question your "Wouldn't be reliable" part. The past few decades, Harleys have been reliable bikes. The biggest thing you have to worry about with them is overheating if you're sitting in traffic since they're air cooled, and your Triumph will never do that since it's water cooled. But overall reliability wise, I've had plenty of friends with 100k+ on their touring Harleys.

But your Triumph will always, always be faster.

can I recommend an R985?

You can, but I won't do it.

I went to triumph dealer when I was looking for a replacement, they snubbed me & refused to talk to me, & I went during an open house, & after seeing them go after clean cut people & give demo rides, & asked me if I was at right place, every single person there working snubbed me, & even food, they gave a skimpy portion that even person I sat next to noticed, I walked out & did email company owner & corporate, I was ready to buy, but a few weeks later I found my current bike.

I've never understood why some dealers have that attitude. When I bought my VTX 1800 I had been interested in a Yamaha Stratoliner, but wanted a test drive before I bought it. It was pulling teeth with the dealership to get them to let me to test it out, asking me multiple times how I was planning on paying for it, etc. I ended up saying "Are you in the business of selling motorcycles or ****ing off customers? Because right now you're doing the latter and that's not going to help the former."

Ended up riding one, and the suspension on it was horrible. Loved the style, loved the sound, and it had good power (Harley could take some notes from the engine design, I think). Suspension was horrific. For people who think Harleys can't turn, this thing couldn't even go in a straight line.

At the end of it I told the guy who'd made it so hard to do a test drive "Well, it's easy. I don't like the bike, so I'm not buying it. But even if I did like it, I wouldn't have bought it from you because you did everything you could to make me not want to. Oh, and [pulls out a wad of $100s] I can afford it."

Of course, I was... I think 23 or so back then, probably showed up at the dealer in my old Suburban. I haven't had people asking whether or not I can afford something in a while, but being mid 30s and driving nicer vehicles probably helps that.

 

[Bill]

1. Stock pipes! Loud pipes not only annoy others, they annoy ME.
2. ATTATT
3. And that gear is High vis. I'm old, I don't give a fig about fashion.
4. Like @azblackbird, I ride 10mph faster than traffic. God put two eyes on the front of my head and programmed my brain to run through the forest at 10mph.
5. Avoid highways and congested roads when you can.
6. Back roads rule.
7. Find the twisties!

 

[Ted]

3. And that gear is High vis. I'm old, I don't give a fig about fashion.

Yabut you're a BMW rider, so you're required to wear the traffic safety orange gear.

We handle visibility more with bright lights all over. Our bikes light up like Christmas trees. And definitely do the 10 MPH faster than traffic... I hate riding slower and getting passed.

 

[luvflyin]

can I recommend an R985?

That'd give ya a pretty good scoot https://www.google.com/search?clien...Bvf3jAhWW9Z4KHW7xCusQBQgsKAA&biw=1600&bih=758

 

[Kenny Phillips]

I never let myself get near cars or trucks. I always ride at least 10 over the flow of traffic and just weave my way through the pack. Once I get a nice buffer I’ll slow down a bit until the next wave of idiots come along then speed back up and weave my way through the pack ahead of me leaving behind the idiots that were gaining on me. Riding a motorcycle in heavy traffic is basically akin to being in a live video game where anything on 4 wheels is out to kill me.

"Weave my way ..." Sounds safe enough. Not.

 

[DaleB]

4. I hate loud pipes and think they should be outlawed. It's no different than the thug who wants to play his music so that everyone within 20 car lengths has to hear it.

They are outlawed, it's just virtually never enforced. The slip-ons on my Harley were clearly marked for off-road use only, and didn't meet EPA standards. Probably not state regs either. That said, they were on the bike when we bought it. They were louder than I wanted, and louder than I liked... and were actually pretty were pretty moderate, compared to most other V-twin bikes around. I put factory mufflers on it once. I liked the sound much better, but the poor thing couldn't get out of its own way. I ended up putting the SE mufflers back on, somewhat reluctantly. I wrote H-D and told them I'd pay good money for quiet mufflers that would flow enough air to let me get merge onto the Interstate on an uphill ramp... never did get a reply, of course.

That said, they did have their occasional advantage. The most obnoxious, stupidly loud thing I ever heard, though, was actually a Honda of some sort. Gold Wing flat-six in some sort of cruiser bike... a Valkyrie, I think. The guy ran six straight, open pipes.

 

[Ted]

That said, they did have their occasional advantage. The most obnoxious, stupidly loud thing I ever heard, though, was actually a Honda of some sort. Gold Wing flat-six in some sort of cruiser bike... a Valkyrie, I think. The guy ran six straight, open pipes.

My Honda VTX1800 was way, way louder than any Harley I've ridden.

 

[Bill]

I put factory mufflers on it once. I liked the sound much better, but the poor thing couldn't get out of its own way. I ended up putting the SE mufflers back on, somewhat reluctantly.

One of my gripes with HD, you pay $20k+ for a bike, and then have to drop another $2.5k on mufflers and power commanders just to get it to run decently, not overheat, etc. Yet somehow BMW coaxes 125 quiet horsepower out of a 1200cc twin. No aftermarket foolishness needed to get it run 11sec quarters.

 

[Ted]

One of my gripes with HD, you pay $20k+ for a bike, and then have to drop another $2.5k on mufflers and power commanders just to get it to run decently, not overheat, etc. Yet somehow BMW coaxes 125 quiet horsepower out of a 1200cc twin. No aftermarket foolishness needed to get it run 11sec quarters.

My other gripe is that even when you spend $20k+ on the bike (f you buy it new), a lot of things are still pretty basic. Both the Street Glide and the Ultra Classic were higher end bikes, but we spent a couple grand on making them the way we wanted.

No doubt, BMW makes something that out the door is something you can basically ride just fine without any need for changes. Harley you can do that but you won't because some of the things are annoying.

I did ride a couple of new BMWs before and just didn't care for the dynamics so much. Too refined.

 

[SoonerAviator]

Well, of course not. That would be idiotic, and I never suggested that. What bugs me is the people who seem to insist that sound travels only in one direction. If that were true the noise wouldn't chase off deer a quarter mile up the road, as I saw happen at least a dozen times.

Yes, as I specifically pointed out, you in your truck with loud exhaust and a stereo cranked up probably can't hear the bikes -- or pretty much anything else. Anything that will give a slight edge when trying to get the attention of Billy Facebook and Suzie Instagram as they wander down the road with their nose stuffed into their phones, though, is probably worthwhile. We were fairly large (two people on one of the biggest bikes available, often with a cargo trailer in tow). We had on every single light the bike had. People still didn't bother to look, or they'd have seen us plain as day.

It's not just the bike, though. I regularly see people drifting into our lane when we're in the F150 or anything else. It seems that mirrors are purely decorative for a good percentage of drivers, since they apparently never actually use them to pay any attention to anything other than what they can see directly in front as they glance up from their screen. The few extra dB of sound from the bike probably won't save you more than occasionally, but it couldn't possibly hurt. Other than your hearing, hence the ear plugs.

I'm not implying you were making the suggestion that having loud pipes would save you from an incursion with a cager. I'm just saying it's not something I'd even put on the list of "safety measures". Sound doesn't just travel in one direction, but it's no different that a train horn blaring at you from in front vs after the train goes by. The sound for most motorcycles is directed out the back, so even the little bit of sound that makes it forward is a fraction of what is able to be heard. Between modern sound proofing, radios (at volumes low enough to carry on a conversation), road/tire noise, etc., the exhaust noise from a motorcycle just won't be heard until you're already in the danger zone. I have listened with a purpose when I see a bike coming up in the lane beside me to see when I can hear them, and almost every time it's not until my lane change would annihilate them if I came over into their lane. It's just how it is.

I agree that people using their mirrors (or even worse, their turn indicators) is severely lacking by most drivers today. If I could change ONE thing about drivers today, it would be to improve their usage of the turn indicator. I don't care if you want to come over into my lane, or make a turn, etc. just let me know about it BEFORE you do it!

Dad's Stratoliner is the only bike I've been on in recent years. Basically a Yamaha version of the HD Road Glide. Nice exhaust sound, v-twin, just smoother running and shaft-driven. I avoid highways and busy roads like the plague and just stick to the back roads. I really don't care for 850lbs bikes that much, but I'm sure they shine more when on longer cruises and in higher winds.

 

[Ted]

I really don't care for 850lbs bikes that much, but I'm sure they shine more when on longer cruises and in higher winds.

That's exactly it. All depends on what you're wanting to do. If you're going on twisties and shorter trips, the 850 lb touring bikes are big and heavy to push around - just like a truck or a big luxury sedan. Think of them as a Lincoln Town Car on two wheels. But if you're going to do a trip, the comfort sure is nice. Set the cruise control and forget about it.

 

[Gerhardt]

If I could change ONE thing about drivers today, it would be to improve their usage of the turn indicator. I don't care if you want to come over into my lane, or make a turn, etc. just let me know about it BEFORE you do it!

If I could change one thing it would be cell phones while driving.

But using turn signals 1/2 second before turning isn't of any use to anyone.

 

[DaleB]

Between modern sound proofing, radios (at volumes low enough to carry on a conversation), road/tire noise, etc., the exhaust noise from a motorcycle just won't be heard until you're already in the danger zone. I have listened with a purpose when I see a bike coming up in the lane beside me to see when I can hear them, and almost every time it's not until my lane change would annihilate them if I came over into their lane. It's just how it is.

It is exactly that location I was talking about. RIGHT NEXT to the car, as you're going past. I watch for any cues indicating potential movement before we start a pass, and if possible we'll allow a full lane buffer... but when you're riding in town, you have no choice but to pass (or be passed) in the adjacent lane. You'd think it would be hard to miss two people right outside your freaking window, and yet -- still, they do.

I agree that people using their mirrors (or even worse, their turn indicators) is severely lacking by most drivers today. If I could change ONE thing about drivers today, it would be to improve their usage of the turn indicator. I don't care if you want to come over into my lane, or make a turn, etc. just let me know about it BEFORE you do it!

Amen.

Dad's Stratoliner is the only bike I've been on in recent years. Basically a Yamaha version of the HD Road Glide. Nice exhaust sound, v-twin, just smoother running and shaft-driven. I avoid highways and busy roads like the plague and just stick to the back roads. I really don't care for 850lbs bikes that much, but I'm sure they shine more when on longer cruises and in higher winds.

They do. When you want to actually travel, you'll come to appreciate the "road sofa" pulling a cargo trailer with a cooler.

 

[SoonerAviator]

That's exactly it. All depends on what you're wanting to do. If you're going on twisties and shorter trips, the 850 lb touring bikes are big and heavy to push around - just like a truck or a big luxury sedan. Think of them as a Lincoln Town Car on two wheels. But if you're going to do a trip, the comfort sure is nice. Set the cruise control and forget about it.

I've had my eye on the Bimmer K1600GT and the Yamaha FJR. They're a bit more my "style". Sort of a sport bike with a more civilized suspension and riding position and an actual rear seat for non-size 0 passengers (they still weight around 650lbs, so still not a lightweight by any means). I bet the electric bikes would be a blast with all of the instantaneous torque. Time will tell if the range is enough for a 3-4hr ride through the twisties or at least a quick charge time to get enough range for the ride home. Should be a funny site in a decade or two when biker bars start having a dozen charging stands in the parking lot, lol.

 

[Ted]

I've had my eye on the Bimmer K1600GT and the Yamaha FJR. They're a bit more my "style". Sort of a sport bike with a more civilized suspension and riding position and an actual rear seat for non-size 0 passengers. I bet the electric bikes would be a blast with all of the instantaneous torque. Time will tell if the range is enough for a 3-4hr ride through the twisties or at least a quick charge time to get enough range for the ride home. Should be a funny site in a decade or two when biker bars start having a dozen charging stands in the parking lot, lol.

I've probably spent 500-1000 mile son an FJR1300. It is a very nice bike and it's good for putting the miles on, with or without a passenger. I think the most I've ridden it in a day with a passenger is probably about 250 miles. Actually that's probably about the most I've ridden it in a day.

Things I didn't like about it:

1) The radiators blow hot air right onto your legs. Nice in the fall and winter. In the summer, it melts you worse than any Harley air-cooled engine
2) No cruise control, just a throttle lock
3) Engine sounded and felt like a sewing machine. Made lots of power from any RPM, but it was just completley uninspiring. There was absolutely nothing in terms of interesting sounds or visceral sensations that came from it. For some that's what they want, but for me it was a real turn-off
4) This is an issue with any sport touring bike, but I'm really a fan of having highway pegs. That requires a cruiser or full dresser of some sort, and of course it's ergonomics so it's a personal thing

I felt like they should've made the FJR with the V-Max engine. I had a V-Max and it was an awful motorcycle because it wouldn't turn or stop. But that engine was fantastic.

I also felt like the FJR was not the ideal bike for riding in warm climates just because of the radiators. It would be great for riding if you never got much above 75F while riding.

 

[SoonerAviator]

I've probably spent 500-1000 mile son an FJR1300. It is a very nice bike and it's good for putting the miles on, with or without a passenger. I think the most I've ridden it in a day with a passenger is probably about 250 miles. Actually that's probably about the most I've ridden it in a day.

Things I didn't like about it:

1) The radiators blow hot air right onto your legs. Nice in the fall and winter. In the summer, it melts you worse than any Harley air-cooled engine
2) No cruise control, just a throttle lock
3) Engine sounded and felt like a sewing machine. Made lots of power from any RPM, but it was just completley uninspiring. There was absolutely nothing in terms of interesting sounds or visceral sensations that came from it. For some that's what they want, but for me it was a real turn-off
4) This is an issue with any sport touring bike, but I'm really a fan of having highway pegs. That requires a cruiser or full dresser of some sort, and of course it's ergonomics so it's a personal thing

I felt like they should've made the FJR with the V-Max engine. I had a V-Max and it was an awful motorcycle because it wouldn't turn or stop. But that engine was fantastic.

I also felt like the FJR was not the ideal bike for riding in warm climates just because of the radiators. It would be great for riding if you never got much above 75F while riding.

I believe the Gen II model of the FJR has some improvements made in the fairing that direct the radiator heat away from the rider (unless wanted) and the Gen III has cruise control as well. I've also seen some highway pegs that guys have added that seem to work alright, but most are not ideal due to the limited places to mount with the fairing in the way. That said, I agree on the V-Max engine. Ideally I'd love an FJR with a VMAX engine, unfortunately the VMAX is no longer a model option and from what I heard, a lot of that was due to the engine not being particularly EPA-friendly in a manner that would allow them to adapt it. That engine was a beast and had a mean sound. I would accept the sound of the sewing machine for the other benefits, vs the typical lopey v-twin, but that's just me.

 

[Bill]

I did ride a couple of new BMWs before and just didn't care for the dynamics so much. Too refined.

I find the boxer twin to have a good balance. It is nowhere near inline 4 smooth, you feel those twin vibes. Not as much as an HD, but not bad.

I owned a Street Glide for about three years, but eventually grew tired of only 65hp pushing 830#, and only 30* of lean angle. 125hp pushing 520# and lean angles >45* suit me better.

As for touring on it, put the suspension in soft mode, hit the cruise control, and it doubles quite nicely as a tourer.

 

[Sac Arrow]

My favorite bike was my BMW 1200RT, 2008 hex head model. Wish I still had it. I sold the Concours C14 a while back, too much of a chore to ride at slow parking lot speeds plus no cruise control. It was nuclear powered, and had good high speed handling characteristics, but otherwise not really that fun to ride. The new 12RT's are pretty nice, but they have put on some weight.

 

[genna]

Livewire kind of perplexes me. I get why HD is trying it, but I'm not sure what they hope to accomplish. HD is definitely in trouble. Motorcycling in general is in big decline in USA(it's always cyclical since it's a luxury for most), but HD made a bet on style/brand over function many years ago. Unfortunately, the people who buy into that style/brand are getting old and stopping riding. They do not have a product that appeals to younger riders. Frankly, they do not have a BRAND that appeals to younger riders. And they have no backup like Honda or Yamaha that sell useful bikes around the globe.

Enter Livewire. Well, it's an inferior product(vs. Zero) at insane price aimed at a diminishing amount of riders that despise the brand and cannot afford it. And that's on top of questionable utility of EV motorcycles in general.

Somehow this just seems desperate.

 

[genna]

... Having said all that, its use case actually matches my current use(almost none - few days a year, less than 50 miles per use). But I can buy a new gas power bike that will do all that for less than 1/3 of the price of Livewire. And I don't hate HD.

 

[SoonerAviator]

... Having said all that, its use case actually matches my current use(almost none - few days a year, less than 50 miles per use). But I can buy a new gas power bike that will do all that for less than 1/3 of the price of Livewire. And I don't hate HD.

Agreed. It's not that the bike doesn't have a market. It would probably satisfy the "needs" of many commuter-riders, especially of the non-traditional H-D sort. It's just that no one is going to pay HD a premium to buy it, especially when it's double the price of the Zero (and others). H-D won't be able to charge a premium for LiveWire, because they aren't really bringing much to the game in terms of experience aside from general motorcycle manufacturing knowledge. How quickly they figure that out and lower prices to be competitive remains to be seen.

 

[Ted]

I believe the Gen II model of the FJR has some improvements made in the fairing that direct the radiator heat away from the rider (unless wanted) and the Gen III has cruise control as well. I've also seen some highway pegs that guys have added that seem to work alright, but most are not ideal due to the limited places to mount with the fairing in the way. That said, I agree on the V-Max engine. Ideally I'd love an FJR with a VMAX engine, unfortunately the VMAX is no longer a model option and from what I heard, a lot of that was due to the engine not being particularly EPA-friendly in a manner that would allow them to adapt it. That engine was a beast and had a mean sound. I would accept the sound of the sewing machine for the other benefits, vs the typical lopey v-twin, but that's just me.

The FJR I rode was an early model, and I haven't kept up, so I'd completely believe the improvements you mentioned.

It doesn't surprise me that the VMax engine couldn't meet modern emissions, being something that came out of the 80s and was basically not updated. I don't imagine VMax sales were very good and management probably just didn't see or agree with the concept of putting one of those in something else. Oh well, how it goes.

I was pretty anti V-Twin but the more time I've spent riding them, the more I like them vs. I-4s. They're narrower, have good torque, and good visceral sensations. I tend to think that the V-4 is probably the best choice for a motorcycle engine in terms of having good torque, good sound, good visceral bits, and maintaining being narrow while also being able to potentially rev pretty well.

I find the boxer twin to have a good balance. It is nowhere near inline 4 smooth, you feel those twin vibes. Not as much as an HD, but not bad.

I owned a Street Glide for about three years, but eventually grew tired of only 65hp pushing 830#, and only 30* of lean angle. 125hp pushing 520# and lean angles >45* suit me better.

As for touring on it, put the suspension in soft mode, hit the cruise control, and it doubles quite nicely as a tourer.

I agree that the 65 HP pushing 800+ lbs is old. The lean angle doesn't bother me quite as much as you're a much better motorcycle rider than I am and take turns more aggressively. I don't care about that, but I would like for the engine to feel less anemic when pushing the weight that it is.

Got it! Do two Harley engines side by side, connect them, make it a V-4!

 

[Bill]

My favorite bike was my BMW 1200RT, 2008 hex head model. Wish I still had it. I sold the Concours C14 a while back, too much of a chore to ride at slow parking lot speeds plus no cruise control. It was nuclear powered, and had good high speed handling characteristics, but otherwise not really that fun to ride. The new 12RT's are pretty nice, but they have put on some weight.

I had an R1150RT for 8 years and put 90kmi on it, I now find the GS to be the porridge just right of the boxer line. Handles almost as well as a sport bike, is very adept on really rough paved and dirt backroads, can do quite nicely as a touring bike, and the smaller fairing is just right for warmer climates. Of the 17 bikes I've owned, it is my favorite, it does everything well.

 

[Gerhardt]

You guys and your aftermarkets. Kinda makes me curious what aftermarket parts you'd put on an electric bike?

Livewire kind of perplexes me. I get why HD is trying it, but I'm not sure what they hope to accomplish. HD is definitely in trouble. Motorcycling in general is in big decline in USA(it's always cyclical since it's a luxury for most), but HD made a bet on style/brand over function many years ago. Unfortunately, the people who buy into that style/brand are getting old and stopping riding. They do not have a product that appeals to younger riders. Frankly, they do not have a BRAND that appeals to younger riders. And they have no backup like Honda or Yamaha that sell useful bikes around the globe.

Enter Livewire. Well, it's an inferior product(vs. Zero) at insane price aimed at a diminishing amount of riders that despise the brand and cannot afford it. And that's on top of questionable utility of EV motorcycles in general.

Somehow this just seems desperate.

It is a desperate attempt. I think it's priced that way to try to recoup their cost, which won't happen. They're losing money bad right now.

HD used to be a great motorcycle mfr. Now they're a good retailer who also sells bikes.

 

[Jim K]

I'll question your "Wouldn't be reliable" part. The past few decades, Harleys have been reliable bikes. The biggest thing you have to worry about with them is overheating if you're sitting in traffic since they're air cooled, and your Triumph will never do that since it's water cooled. But overall reliability wise, I've had plenty of friends with 100k+ on their touring Harleys.

But your Triumph will always, always be faster.

No argument Harley makes a great bike these days that will go a long time. My point was that they are overpriced by about 2-3x, and if you want real power, you are going to spend lots of money and ruin that reliability. I had a friend with a street glide...I bet he put 20k into that thing. It was sweet, but man I just can't see putting that kind of money into a bike. I'd rather waste it on a 40 year old spam can with wings.

 

[DaleB]

Harley has a business model (it seems) that is focused on determining the absolute last dollar the traffic will possibly bear. It worked really well for them for a number of years... I don't know that it's a good long term strategy, though.

 

[Jim K]

Agreed. It's not that the bike doesn't have a market. It would probably satisfy the "needs" of many commuter-riders, especially of the non-traditional H-D sort. It's just that no one is going to pay HD a premium to buy it, especially when it's double the price of the Zero (and others). H-D won't be able to charge a premium for LiveWire, because they aren't really bringing much to the game in terms of experience aside from general motorcycle manufacturing knowledge. How quickly they figure that out and lower prices to be competitive remains to be seen.

This. I can't figure out what they're trying to do. Only explanation I can come up with is that they really don't want to sell any, but are just trying to gauge reaction.

The one major advantage HD has is dealers every 20 miles. The closest Triumph dealer to me is 2 hours away. I have resigned to doing any work it needs myself. If HD can create a compelling product, and get their dealers on board (which may be the biggest hurdle) they might be in a decent position. If/when the dealerships start folding.....

 

[Fiveslide]

You can, but I won't do it.

Sheeeet, somebody needs to. I'll do it if someone will sponsor and fund the build.

 

[SoonerAviator]

This. I can't figure out what they're trying to do. Only explanation I can come up with is that they really don't want to sell any, but are just trying to gauge reaction.

The one major advantage HD has is dealers every 20 miles. The closest Triumph dealer to me is 2 hours away. I have resigned to doing any work it needs myself. If HD can create a compelling product, and get their dealers on board (which may be the biggest hurdle) they might be in a decent position. If/when the dealerships start folding.....

But what do you need a dealership for after you've bought an electric bike? Brake/tire changes?

 

[DaleB]

But what do you need a dealership for after you've bought an electric bike? Brake/tire changes?

You kidding? Shirts, man. Shirts!! And coasters and crap.

 

[Fiveslide]

You kidding? Shirts, man. Shirts!! And coasters and crap.

All that torque has to be rough on chains, sprockets, belts, whatever they choose to turn the rear wheel.

 

[Jim K]

Screamin' eagle capacitors

 

[Zeldman]

For the folks that need sound on a electric motorcycle.....

 

[Cap'n Jack]

If it takes a loud pipe (which are generally pointing the other way) to keep you from hitting a biker, you need better driving technique. Loud pipes annoy people. I say this as someone who has ridden a blown alcohol drag bike down Pickle Road in Akron, where speed was invisible to the cops, as Art Arfon's speed shop was there.

I'm only an average driver at best, I never have claimed otherwise. I'll take all the clues you guys give me. I heard a beemer cycle zip past me in his turn lane (no issue with him). There was a yahoo zipping along zig-zagging around the cars like he was in a live video game. I heard him, found him tucked in by my right rear fender splitting the lane- thought he was hanging on to me for a second. I slowed a little to let him zip around me then the car to my right.