Electric Harley-Davidsons?

[azblackbird]

"Weave my way ..." Sounds safe enough. Not.

Once you ride enough you'll understand. If you wanna survive close to a million miles of riding, you learn real quick to take an aggressive approach to combating traffic.

 

[weilke]

I wonder how these battery packs will deal with sitting for a year at a time between those April 22/23 weekends.

 

[old_biker]

. Got it! Do two Harley engines side by side, connect them, make it a V-4!

well I have seen 2 motors in line on drag Harleys, also there has been at least 2 built as 3 cylinders. you can google 3 cylinder Harley.

 

[Gerhardt]

I wonder how these battery packs will deal with sitting for a year at a time between those April 22/23 weekends.

Depending on where you live. In the warmer climates you won't see much of that. Where I am (Midwest) even during the winter months there's seldom a 30 day stretch where you're not able to get some riding time in.

I was telling my wife again just last night that my problem with everything going electric is that at some point those batteries become nothing but toxic waste. Yeah, in theory they can be recycled - but in real life that's just not going to happen.

 

[old_biker]

I've probably spent 500-1000 mile son an FJR1300. It is a very nice bike and it's good for putting the miles on, with or without a passenger. I think the most I've ridden it in a day with a passenger is probably about 250 miles. Actually that's probably about the most I've ridden it in a day.

Things I didn't like about it:

1) The radiators blow hot air right onto your legs. Nice in the fall and winter. In the summer, it melts you worse than any Harley air-cooled engine
2) No cruise control, just a throttle lock
3) Engine sounded and felt like a sewing machine. Made lots of power from any RPM, but it was just completley uninspiring. There was absolutely nothing in terms of interesting sounds or visceral sensations that came from it. For some that's what they want, but for me it was a real turn-off
4) This is an issue with any sport touring bike, but I'm really a fan of having highway pegs. That requires a cruiser or full dresser of some sort, and of course it's ergonomics so it's a personal thing

I felt like they should've made the FJR with the V-Max engine. I had a V-Max and it was an awful motorcycle because it wouldn't turn or stop. But that engine was fantastic.

I also felt like the FJR was not the ideal bike for riding in warm climates just because of the radiators. It would be great for riding if you never got much above 75F while riding.

May I make a suggestion to look for an obscure bike, find one of these & try it, Kawasaki ZX1100E GPZ, 1995, 1996, 1997, it is a sport touring version of the ZX11, but different, still fun, & I have done 800 miles in the saddle in a day, & 550 miles after working a full 8 hour day, in my facebook profile there are pics of me at lake Erie with it & touring covered bridges in Ohio, there is a few tweaks to do to it, but a great all around bike. I still have mine, but it is not on the road presently.

for those talking about comfort? never had but 1 bike that was & it was my first, as a teenager, everything else has been stiff suspension, I do not like wide front tires & wide tubes, it slows you down for the bike being flickable, skinny front tire & narrow tubes, & stripped down, usually hard tails, or lowered with almost non existent suspension, lol, yet I would not think of strapping a duffle bag & going anywhere in the country if I had time off & wanted to, but basically that's all I ever known.

the 90's Electraglide I have, before I even consider riding it, it will be stripped down, and a skinny tire on front on narrow tubes, & all luggage will come off, so it will be a basic bike, I may leave rear suspension stock for the moment, but if too soft, it will get changed, & of course ape hanger bars, at least 10" but usually 16" to 18" is more my style & yes for every day riding as well as any cross country touring.

 

[denverpilot]

A pilot buddy of mine was involved with this project ten years ago. Did a tour showing off the original to celebs and such.

Like anything electric, the torque and acceleration are insane. You don’t put it in the top performance mode for newbies. Even many experienced riders say once is enough.

But Harley has changed the bike and made it a lot more sissy than the originals. The original wasn’t sparking interest (pun intended) in their traditional market and apparently they think the much smaller bike will attract youngsters.

They do have to adapt somehow. The younger crowd isn’t as big a pool. They don’t want big bikes.

 

[Ted]

To each his own. I rode my VTX 1800 830 miles in a day, and could've made the full 1,000 for an iron butt recording. I've ridden sport bikes and sport tourers hundreds of miles in a day as well.

If I'm going on a longer trip, I like having the lounger touring bike.

 

[FormerHangie]

I believe the Gen II model of the FJR has some improvements made in the fairing that direct the radiator heat away from the rider (unless wanted) and the Gen III has cruise control as well. I've also seen some highway pegs that guys have added that seem to work alright, but most are not ideal due to the limited places to mount with the fairing in the way. That said, I agree on the V-Max engine. Ideally I'd love an FJR with a VMAX engine, unfortunately the VMAX is no longer a model option and from what I heard, a lot of that was due to the engine not being particularly EPA-friendly in a manner that would allow them to adapt it. That engine was a beast and had a mean sound. I would accept the sound of the sewing machine for the other benefits, vs the typical lopey v-twin, but that's just me.

https://www.yamahamotorsports.com/sport-heritage/models/vmax

 

[SoonerAviator]

https://www.yamahamotorsports.com/sport-heritage/models/vmax

Yeah, it's still available, but they haven't made any changes to it since 2016. There's been quite a lot of talk "from insiders" that the engine doesn't meet Euro-4 regulations that were slated to go into effect after 2017. So it's basically just surviving on dwindling US-sales and probably whatever remaining production stock they can build. If they decide to revamp the VMax with a new engine, that's great, but I doubt the muscle-bike niche is much of a high-volume producer for them. The range on it's smaller fuel tank has been a pain point for people as well. I think a small redesign to bring it into 2020 with an engine in the same spirit as the existing model would be fantastic. It's not really known for much handling prowess, either, so that could be improved a bit without tarnishing it's "bruiser" reputation. It's only equal is probably the Ducati Diavel, and there aren't a ton of those running around, either.

 

[DaleB]

To each his own. I rode my VTX 1800 830 miles in a day, and could've made the full 1,000 for an iron butt recording. I've ridden sport bikes and sport tourers hundreds of miles in a day as well.

If I'm going on a longer trip, I like having the lounger touring bike.

Exactly. The first long trip we did after putting the Mustang seat on ours was a 700-mile ride. As we were unloading at the hotel, my wife remarked that she could have easily gone a couple more hours. The fully loaded bagger, pulling a trailer isn't "flickable"... but we also weren't hating life by the time we arrived.

 

[weilke]

Depending on where you live. In the warmer climates you won't see much of that. Where I am (Midwest) even during the winter months there's seldom a 30 day stretch where you're not able to get some riding time in.

Yes, outside of Fairbanks, AK and Fargo, ND, there is no place where you can't do that. Doesn't change the fact that a substantial percentage of Bikes sits 11 months and 30 days per year regardless of weather.

I was telling my wife again just last night that my problem with everything going electric is that at some point those batteries become nothing but toxic waste. Yeah, in theory they can be recycled - but in real life that's just not going to happen.

The recycling percentage for lead acid batteries is 99%, but that is the result of both industry effort and government policy. The percentages for large scale NiMH batteries (e.g. the original Prius) is lower, the scale for consumer grade NiMH and Lithium is minimal.
When I see all those lawnmowers and weed-eaters with batteries being pushed, I would really like to see an end-end analysis that doesn't assume a unsubstantiated high recycling rate before I buy that they are 'greener' than a small gas engine. The same applies to an electric scooter. Sure, if you deliver pizzas with the thing and it runs 30,000 miles a year, the electric version can't be beat. If like so many motorcycles, it sits most of the year and runs a couple of hundred miles at most, the energy balance is going to favor a low maintenance air cooled internal combustion engine for a very long time.

 

[Zeldman]

I was telling my wife again just last night that my problem with everything going electric is that at some point those batteries become nothing but toxic waste. Yeah, in theory they can be recycled - but in real life that's just not going to happen.

I am all for recycling as long as it is easy for me and doesn't cost me anything. Otherwise forget it.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I wonder how these battery packs will deal with sitting for a year at a time between those April 22/23 weekends.

All you have to do is leave it plugged in to an outlet in your garage and it should be fine. It's heat that kills Lithium batteries, not cold. Even better would be to charge it to 80% and then turn it on once a week and plug it back in when it hits about 30% and repeat. I'm guessing they won't have the cellular network features and such that the electric cars have, so the phantom drain could easily make that 50% last all winter even unplugged if it's done right.

How long they last while being ridden really depends on whether the manufacturer has good battery management: The ability to stop charge at a less-than-full state (which is also good if you're going to be leaving it plugged in), temperature control, charge and discharge limits, and such.

Also, what about all the engines that sit all winter? It's not good for them either...

I was telling my wife again just last night that my problem with everything going electric is that at some point those batteries become nothing but toxic waste. Yeah, in theory they can be recycled - but in real life that's just not going to happen.

I think it's a lot more likely to happen with the bigger batteries than with the consumer stuff. Nobody turns in their lithium AA's when they wear out, they throw 'em in the trash (with all their CFL bulbs!) and that's that.

With something bigger like this, even somewhat worn-out batteries have value. Ask a scrap yard that gets a Nissan Leaf for example - People are building their own e-bikes and such with them. A friend of mine bought a Leaf battery from a scrap yard, used some modules to build an e-bike, and sold the other modules to other people he knows that do similar things. One of them ended up powering a (formerly gas) lawn tractor. The worn-out batteries can also still be used as storage for solar installations and such.

And we haven't even talked about recycling them yet, just reuse! I think that the economics of recycling will still be favorable, and if not, government needs to address that and tax disposal until recycling becomes favorable.

I am all for recycling as long as it is easy for me and doesn't cost me anything. Otherwise forget it.

Bingo. Gotta make doing the right thing the best thing.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

All you have to do is leave it plugged in to an outlet in your garage and it should be fine. It's heat that kills Lithium batteries, not cold. Even better would be to charge it to 80% and then turn it on once a week and plug it back in when it hits about 30% and repeat. I'm guessing they won't have the cellular network features and such that the electric cars have, so the phantom drain could easily make that 50% last all winter even unplugged if it's done right.

How long they last while being ridden really depends on whether the manufacturer has good battery management: The ability to stop charge at a less-than-full state (which is also good if you're going to be leaving it plugged in), temperature control, charge and discharge limits, and such.

Also, what about all the engines that sit all winter? It's not good for them either...



I think it's a lot more likely to happen with the bigger batteries than with the consumer stuff. Nobody turns in their lithium AA's when they wear out, they throw 'em in the trash (with all their CFL bulbs!) and that's that.

With something bigger like this, even somewhat worn-out batteries have value. Ask a scrap yard that gets a Nissan Leaf for example - People are building their own e-bikes and such with them. A friend of mine bought a Leaf battery from a scrap yard, used some modules to build an e-bike, and sold the other modules to other people he knows that do similar things. One of them ended up powering a (formerly gas) lawn tractor. The worn-out batteries can also still be used as storage for solar installations and such.

And we haven't even talked about recycling them yet, just reuse! I think that the economics of recycling will still be favorable, and if not, government needs to address that and tax disposal until recycling becomes favorable.



Bingo. Gotta make doing the right thing the best thing.

And there's some work about how to recycle them.
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/cen-09728-cover

One challenge is that there are a number of Li battery chemistries as the batteries are improved.

 

[Ted]

This thread has gotten me thinking about the big bore kit for my '09 Ultra Classic. Currently a 96", it looks like 110" is the biggest I can go, but that comes with a bump to 11:1 compression and I could always put in different cams and heads for more power.

 

[DaleB]

This thread has gotten me thinking about the big bore kit for my '09 Ultra Classic. Currently a 96", it looks like 110" is the biggest I can go, but that comes with a bump to 11:1 compression and I could always put in different cams and heads for more power.

I did a big bore upgrade on my '03 Ultra. 88 to 95, with cams and .030 head gaskets to bump the compression very slightly. It was a big improvement over stock, but if you can spend the money on head work I hear it would be well spent. I don't know for sure whether the 96" heads are any better than the stock 88 was, but probably not... and they really can breathe better. Having the work done well doesn't come cheap, though.

That reminds me... I still have a couple of the special tools required to do the cam work. One is the oil pump alignment pins; not using them properly is a great way to end up with an engine that has problems. There was another one, don't recall what it was for though. I did the work in '06 or so.

 

[Ted]

I did a big bore upgrade on my '03 Ultra. 88 to 95, with cams and .030 head gaskets to bump the compression very slightly. It was a big improvement over stock, but if you can spend the money on head work I hear it would be well spent. I don't know for sure whether the 96" heads are any better than the stock 88 was, but probably not... and they really can breathe better. Having the work done well doesn't come cheap, though.

That reminds me... I still have a couple of the special tools required to do the cam work. One is the oil pump alignment pins; not using them properly is a great way to end up with an engine that has problems. There was another one, don't recall what it was for though. I did the work in '06 or so.

Yeah, I'm sure the heads are where a lot of the power can come from. When I get to the point of actually doing something like that, I'll look into it further.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

Loud pipes annoy people.

This.

Living along a twisty, tree/lined stretch of rural road that has become popular with the weekend costume warrior bike crowd, on any sunny Saturday these days we can’t even hear each other speak if we are trying to enjoy the patio or have windows open.

Straight pipes are nothing more than vanity “look at me, here I come” crap.

And I’d bet most of those lugnuts don’t goose it in their own neighborhoods, just in others.

 

[Ted]

And I’d bet most of those lugnuts don’t goose it in their own neighborhoods, just in others.

When Laurie and I met her Sportster 1200 had drag pipes (straight pipes).

We didn't like our neighbors.

So yes, I made sure to always go full throttle turning onto the main road.

I really enjoyed the pipes on that bike, it was a lot of fun. My VTX 1800 was too loud and I did put stock pipes back on it because it was obnoxious, even to me as the rider.

 

[Zeldman]

Years ago I had a Honda 350, the 4 cylinder version. It had 4 straight pipes and it was punishing to say the least.

I caught a friend of mine at a red light one night. I was rolling up behind him, clutched it and went to first. He had no idea I was coming up behind him. The light turned green as I reached his rear bumper and I went WOT past his open window.

He told me later that he had no idea what had just passed him. He said it was so sudden and so loud that he almost drove into the ditch to get away....

 

[weilke]

And there's some work about how to recycle them.
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/cen-09728-cover

One challenge is that there are a number of Li battery chemistries as the batteries are improved.

As long as Lithium mining kills someone else's Yak or Llama, it is easy to pretend that we are doing something good for the environment by diving head first into battery powered mobility.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

As long as Lithium mining kills someone else's Yak or Llama, it is easy to pretend that we are doing something good for the environment by diving head first into battery powered mobility.

Lithium isn't usually "mined" from a traditional mine. If you've seen the meme that's been passed around Facebook of a "Lithium mine", well, that's actually a copper mine.

Lithium is "mined" mostly by extraction from salt water.

 

[weilke]

Lithium isn't usually "mined" from a traditional mine. If you've seen the meme that's been passed around Facebook of a "Lithium mine", well, that's actually a copper mine.

Lithium is "mined" mostly by extraction from salt water.

Correct would be to say that some of the world supply comes from alkaline brine operations. Most of it is extracted in surface mining for Spodumene ore. I don't know what meme you are talking about, but this is the chinese owned Greenbushes mine in Western Australia:

Some of the brine operations are in the Atacama desert, one of the driest places on earth. Creating one ton of lithium carbonate in the brine process requires 500,000 gallons of water. While it was one of the driest places on earth prior to the Lithium boom, sucking up all that water for the chemical process sure doesn't help the situation.

Much of the further production of Lithium from precursors like Lithium Carbonate and and Lithium Hydroxide takes place in china. If you believe the assurances of the chinese government about the environmental sustainability of their operations, well, you can certainly do that.

Nickel comes from scenic places like the siberian town of Norilsk:

Most of the worlds Cobalt supply (another key component of green batteries) comes from the Democratic Republic of Congo (hint, it's not democratic):

If Nickel, Cobalt and Lithium had to be mined in the Hamptons or if it harmed a single spotted owl, we would operate our cellphones with hand-cranks and drive cars exclusively powered by dead dinosaurs. The reality is, mining for those three minerals is a messy process and we have outsourced it to places nobody seems to care much about.

 

[GRG55]

...We have an camper we barely use. A boat, it's sitting in the water a few hundred feet from the house, that doesn't get used like it should. I think I've fished twice this year. WTH?

Your life is not complete. You need to own a plane you never fly. That'll fix the situation.

 

[Fiveslide]

Your life is not complete. You need to own a plane you never fly. That'll fix the situation.

I'm trying to get there. Not having money or time has been holding me back.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Correct would be to say that some of the world supply comes from alkaline brine operations. Most of it is extracted in surface mining for Spodumene ore.

The reference I was looking at the other day said it's currently 87% from brine, 13% from mines... And now I can't find it! Doh!

If Nickel, Cobalt and Lithium had to be mined in the Hamptons or if it harmed a single spotted owl, we would operate our cellphones with hand-cranks and drive cars exclusively powered by dead dinosaurs. The reality is, mining for those three minerals is a messy process and we have outsourced it to places nobody seems to care much about.

Kind of like the other raw materials used to make all the other crap we like to buy.

 

[weilke]

Kind of like the other raw materials used to make all the other crap we like to buy.

Not really. Lead smelting from ore is messy but we recycle 99% of battery lead so very little ends up in the landfill or the incinerator. The overall recycling rate for steel is 86%. Still leaves enough new steel that needs to be made from ore, but it's not the same throwaway culture as all the battery operated junk (including cars) that floods the consumer market today.

 

[weilke]

The reference I was looking at the other day said it's currently 87% from brine, 13% from mines... And now I can't find it! Doh!

That number may refer to 'known reserves'. There is a lot of Lithium contained in the salars of the Atacama desert. For current supply, I went off USGS data which still shows Australia as supplier of 50+%.

 

[Ted]

This picture came up in my Facebook memories from 7 years ago. One of my best friends and his girlfriend were going to ride out from New York to Indy to watch some race there (I think F1). He's pretty short and at the time had... I want to say it was a Harley 48, which is not a road trip kind of bike at all. But Harley was having some special where if you took your bike in for maintenance you could rent any of the bikes they had at a discounted rate. Say what you want about Harley, their rental program is way better than any other manufacturer.

My friend is short and so touching the ground to be able to balance a full dresser just wasn't going to work for him, especially riding with his girlfriend on the back. He asked what I recommended he rent, and I said "Rent the Trike. You don't have to worry about balancing it and it has extra luggage space."

So he did, and was the first visitor in our new house in Ohio when we moved there in 2012. I got to see the TriGlide and take it around the block:

Caption of the above photo: "The geezers and their gliders" (we were in our late 20s at the time)

The suspension on the TriGlide is not good at all, they really need a longer wheelbase for it to work well. I still have my Ultra Classic (although it has some more cobwebs on it now). When I start to have balance issues maybe I'll do the trike thing. For now I just want a bigger engine.

 

[Jim K]

An older friend of mine just put a sidecar on his triumph Thunderbird. Way cooler than a trike, but still solves the balance problem. His wife loves riding in it, it gets all kinds of attention, and it's great for taking kids for rides. This is my oldest taking a ride:

 

[Gerhardt]

H-D CEO just said he's surprised and disappointed that the Livewire isn't selling to the younger generation. He has no plans to offer sales incentives but does recognize that H-D needs to appeal to a younger generation. He also says he knows there are less expensive bikes with better prices and performance available but doesn't think H-D is competing against them.

This guy has his head in the sand.

 

[Bill]

H-D CEO just said he's surprised and disappointed that the Livewire isn't selling to the younger generation. He has no plans to offer sales incentives but does recognize that H-D needs to appeal to a younger generation. He also says he knows there are less expensive bikes with better prices and performance available but doesn't think H-D is competing against them.

This guy has his head in the sand.

Agree, the Livewire is very expensive compared to other ebikes, and the Harley faithful are not going to be buying electrics. No market for this bike.

 

[steingar]

Ahh yes, trikes, all the disadvantages of a bike and a car all rolled into one. Could say the same about sidecars, but I think they're really cool. They were selling the last of the Victory Electric bikes at the Iron Pony for $8K a pop. I was sorely tempted. I'm not so certain Harley will be that shy of buyers. The KTM Superduke I rode the other day was an $18K bike, a lot of the Bmers go for well north of that, and I bet a full dressed Goldwing goes of that as well. Lots of bikes sell for wha the Livewire is going for. Not so certain Harley won't find a market.

 

[genna]

https://jalopnik.com/harley-davidsons-livewire-has-so-far-been-a-flop-repor-1838852741

 

[Bill]

The KTM Superduke I rode the other day was an $18K bike, a lot of the Bmers go for well north of that, and I bet a full dressed Goldwing goes of that as well. Lots of bikes sell for wha the Livewire is going for. Not so certain Harley won't find a market.

The difference: My bike goes 200+ miles on a tank at extra legal speeds, and "recharges" in two minutes at the gas pump. Oh, and the price difference between my bike and a Livewire buys 150kmi of gas.

No market. Young people will go for a Zero if they want electric or just a regular gas bike, and the Harley faithful want a vibrating rumbling V-twin. No market.

 

[Gerhardt]

The difference: My bike goes 200+ miles on a tank at extra legal speeds, and "recharges" in two minutes at the gas pump. Oh, and the price difference between my bike and a Livewire buys 150kmi of gas.

No market. Young people will go for a Zero if they want electric or just a regular gas bike, and the Harley faithful want a vibrating rumbling V-twin. No market.

All true. But that's not HD's real problem. Their customer base is dying off and they're not replenishing it.

* There are fewer bikers now and, like GA, the fall is expected to continue. HD is counting on new bikers taking to their brand. That's not happening. Bikers at HD dealerships are older, established riders. Younger, new riders are at other dealerships.
* There are more competitors in the ebike market. Names most people have never heard of. They're offering good-looking, powerful bikes with longer range at a fraction of the cost.
* Over the last few decades HD has gone from a motorcycle manufacturer to a retail company that also happens to sell bikes. Their apparel and accessories have provided a large portion of revenue, and they grew fat and happy with that and quit paying attention to their bike market. If they had been looking forward 5 years. 10 years. 20 years.


To replenish their customer base they need something to attract younger riders, new riders.
1. Get past the price. $30K isn't going to happen for <40 year old.
2. Variety. One ebike style?
3. Range. This is the big one. The current offering won't give you a day trip. In HD's favor, other bikes don't offer much better. Be the first in the market with a good range and you're in.

 

[steingar]

All true. But that's not HD's real problem. Their customer base is dying off and they're not replenishing it.

Actually, they're trying. Whether they succeed will be seen. They've already rolled out smaller displacement lighter bikes for the training and overseas markets. I've seen mockups of a Streetfighter that look gorgeous (thought the specs I saw would make it heavy and slow) and I've heard they're making an adventure bike while they're at it. Indeed they're supposed to be unveiling quite a few new models in the coming years.

All that said, they're stepping into markets that are already well established. Whether they have the engineering to surpass the folks already in the game, I don't know. I suspect strongly that Millenial buyers won't just purchase it because its a Harley.

 

[SoonerAviator]

Yup, H-D survives on the existing customers and selling a "Biker Image". If people were buying solely based off of value and performance per dollar, there aren't many H-D bikes that would ever sell. People want the look/sound of an H-D, that's why many stick with them. They try and transfer that image to electric motorcycles which is 99% a group of sub-40yr olds who don't give two hoots about the H-D biker image and charge top-dollar for it, and it's an instant failure. Who couldn't see that coming? Lol. I don't wish H-D ill will, but they've refused to branch out of anything but the cruiser market and perform little innovation. They will likely go belly-up along with their large dealership network, and it's nobody's fault but their own. Maybe they can just be an apparel company.

 

[steingar]

Yup, H-D survives on the existing customers and selling a "Biker Image". If people were buying solely based off of value and performance per dollar, there aren't many H-D bikes that would ever sell. People want the look/sound of an H-D, that's why many stick with them. They try and transfer that image to electric motorcycles which is 99% a group of sub-40yr olds who don't give two hoots about the H-D biker image and charge top-dollar for it, and it's an instant failure. Who couldn't see that coming? Lol. I don't wish H-D ill will, but they've refused to branch out of anything but the cruiser market and perform little innovation. They will likely go belly-up along with their large dealership network, and it's nobody's fault but their own. Maybe they can just be an apparel company.

Not before they get a bailout from Washington to give them bit of life support. You watch. "Iconic American Brand"

 

[denverpilot]

Not before they get a bailout from Washington to give them bit of life support. You watch. "Iconic American Brand"

LOL t’is the new American way.

Free college too.

Finance it all. Nobody will ever have to pay for anything...