EFB versus paper charts and plates on checkride

B

Blueangel

Line Up and Wait
Joined
Jan 5, 2015
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813
Location
San Diego
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Display name:
Scott
So I had one CFII tell me that local San Diego DPEs frown on iPads and tablets in the cockpit for the charts and plates. Is this true? I have two tablets and iPad and Samsung Galaxy with GPS and charts for IFR training use. So I'd have to have a double battery failure how common is that?
 
It depends. I called a very respected DPE here and he says the FAA has put a new emphasis on IPads and testing you on what you'll use in the real world.

So the only thing he "breaks" is the GPS on it.

You know what you do? Call the DPE you want to use and ask. They aren't going to look down on you for calling and asking questions before a ride.
 
Awesome thanks there are a few DPEs in San Diego. If anyone recommends a particular San Diego DPE feel free to PM me with details on what DPE is best to use for the instrument checkride and which ones to avoid. I was lucky when I did my checkride in NorCal since my CFI knew the DPE well and he was a great guy to do the checkride with.
 
Second for asking. I can see a DPE frowning on the GPS in the iPad, but as a replacement for paper charts that's becoming the norm these days and the FAA encourages the use of such technology. Just make sure there's a backup available (a large format phone can display the carts quite well too.) for a checkride probably not a bad idea to have the plate book available but realistically most people don't keep a full set of paper charts with them anymore.
 
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He can frown all he wants....as well as fail your device(s) all he wants. Personally I had the Ipad as my primary for my check ride, but had a full and current set of paper charts, AFD, and approach plates even going so far as putting together a paper approach plate book organized by the airports we were going to be using. I used the paper for all my oral. Once the DPE saw that I had a the paper as a backup and was prepared to use it...it never even came up during the practical check ride, it was all EFB.

My advice...use the EFB like you would in the real world but be prepared to demonstrate that you are still fully functional without hesitation in the event of catastrophic technological meltdown.
 
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I had this discussion with my CFII the other day. He also said the FAA has placed an emphasis on EFBs in the cockpit.

It makes sense (to me anyway) that a DPE would "fail" the GPS on an EFB. After all, a big part of the check ride is testing your situational awareness. A non-certified moving map display would be akin to cheating, wouldn't it?
 
I did my check ride yesterday with Fore Flight + Stratus 2 + Geo Referenced approach plates. He asked about the Stratus and I said I'm using all available resources to conduct a safe IFR flight. I further explained that if my iPad craps out, I have an iPhone 6 plus, paper IFR charts and all the approach procedures printed out as backups. He then asked if my G1000's database had expired, can I still fly the G1000? I said not for the GPS portion, but I can still use VOR function of the G1000. He then said, what about your iPad with GPS? I told you cannot legally navigate with ForeFlight on iPad, b/c it is for situation awareness only. He was happy with my answer but he did make me fly the first approach using only raw data and no GPS.
 
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wilkersk said:
A non-certified moving map display would be akin to cheating, wouldn't it?
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Not if you are demonstrating that you are using it as designed...using it as an "aide" to situational awareness along with the certified equipment in your plane.


Rely on the ipad only...you deserve to fail. Use it as a redundancy and to increase situational awareness and reduce pilot workload...that is the demonstration of good CRM.
 
Can the DPE fail two EFB tablets in the cockpit for an instrument checkride? I would find that bizarre since having 2-3 tablets and phones would be showing the examiner that you have backups. I do carry paper charts and plates as backup anyhow so will keep this in mind.

For a phone, I am looking at replacing my 10 year old iPhone with a new Samsung smartphone since I can download the free Avare app for charts, moving map and approach plates. I don't want to keep making the Foreflight guys rich with $150 annual donations.

I setup Skychart on my iPad and Avare on my Samsung tablet and both work quite well for EFB at no cost. I use Dual GPS external receivers for these.
 
Blueangel said:
Can the DPE fail two EFB tablets in the cockpit for an instrument checkride? I would find that bizarre since having 2-3 tablets and phones would be showing the examiner that you have backups. I do carry paper charts and plates as backup anyhow so will keep this in mind.

For a phone, I am looking at replacing my 10 year old iPhone with a new Samsung smartphone since I can download the free Avare app for charts, moving map and approach plates. I don't want to keep making the Foreflight guys rich with $150 annual donations.

I setup Skychart on my iPad and Avare on my Samsung tablet and both work quite well for EFB at no cost. I use Dual GPS external receivers for these.
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Well, you could fail every GPS on the aircraft with a RAIM alert. Do your tablets do RAIM calculations?

If you are using the tablets as EFBs, you should not need any GPS receiver. Be honest, or expect your DPE to pick up on it.

I started my IFR training using a tablet for an EFB. I've since discovered that it's a whole lot easier to handle paper. The one exception is for diversions. So, the tablet is once again backup, like it should be. It's off most of the time.

It's not easy to draw custom holds on Foreflight IFR-low charts. And you end up pinching and zooming a lot for approach charts. Not good if you're also hand flying.
 
Some DPEs are very practical and want you to fly the checkride the way you would fly the day after you passed said checkride. Mine was like this and he let me use it during the oral and I had it up as a situational aide and for charts/approaches during the flight. I confirmed with him ahead of time what his disposition on this was, though.

Some other DPEs are very old school and want to fail anything that was made after 1980 (though they never seem to make those old VORs fail even though that happens all the time in the real world :) ).

Most are probably somewhere in between.
 
Sorry son this is going to be a 1950s IFR checkride. You have an ADF. Go.:rofl:
 
Haha that was funny RocketFlyer84 well I have no issue using paper or EFB. The EFB will really be more for SA and backup. I do have an IFR three ring foldout kneeboard for approach plates and charts and the EFB goes in a second portable desk that I can write down clearances on.

Anyways the Cessna 172 I rent here at KMYF has a Garmin 530 GPS in it and can learn approaches that way as well.

-Scott
 
might not be a bad idea to have a backup power supply in your flight kit....
 
Easiest setup for IFR is two VORs, one with glideslope and paper charts. They never fail paper charts. Just the way it is.....
 
Shop for a DPE that is serious about the checkride and not his/her personal preferences in regard to technology. Paper charts are archaic, just as VORs are also old tech and can't be phased out soon enough...
 
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taters said:
might not be a bad idea to have a backup power supply in your flight kit....
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That's one thing that I added to my flight bag when for long IFR trips. I have two USB battery backups that can power the iPad/iPhone if needed. I make sure to charge them up the night before along with the Stratus.
 
Blueangel said:
Anyways the Cessna 172 I rent here at KMYF has a Garmin 530 GPS in it and can learn approaches that way as well.



-Scott
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Make sure the Garmin is updated before your checkride. Unfortunately, there are several owners at Plus One who don't do regular updates.
 
Ah yes thanks for the heads up on making sure that the Garmin GPS database is current before the checkride! True in fact one plane at KSEE technically is not airworthy and I won't fly that plane.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Make sure the Garmin is updated before your checkride. Unfortunately, there are several owners at Plus One who don't do regular updates.
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This happens ALL over the place when an aircraft is usually used for VFR.

Part of your preflight check should be to check that the database is current. Every time. Alongside your 30 day VOR check.
 
jordane93 said:
Depends on the DPE. He might decide the fail both
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They aren't supposed to. If you show that you have a backup, that's usually enough.

But some jackhole may want to make a point. So like I said, just ask before you book the checkride. He'll be honest with you, and if he doesn't want to answer how he does things, then go to another DPE.
 
jordane93 said:
Depends on the DPE. He might decide the fail both
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Why not just reach over and turn off the avionics master switch too, simulated nuclear explosion and its EM pulse just knocked out your electronics, you've got a compass and airspeed indicator, start dead reckoning
 
teejayevans said:
Sorry old man, I've only got GPS & VOR,ILS
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We've got an ADF in the plane. I've found flying approaches with it pretty simple.

Most of them are just "fly to NDB, track outbound, PT, fly inbound to MDA."

I'm taking my checkride in about two weeks. I'm curious whether he'll even test anything with the ADF besides just asking me how it works.
 
teejayevans said:
Why not just reach over and turn off the avionics master switch too, simulated nuclear explosion and its EM pulse just knocked out your electronics, you've got a compass and airspeed indicator, start dead reckoning
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Because GPS outages -- GPS itself, not of any particular receiver -- do happen.

The local CAP 182 has a maximum recorded speed of 770 knots. Wanna guess how that happened?

Now, it's legal to fly IFR with only a WAAS GPS, but with that circumstance, do you really consider it to be a good idea?
 
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teejayevans said:
Why not just reach over and turn off the avionics master switch too, simulated nuclear explosion and its EM pulse just knocked out your electronics, you've got a compass and airspeed indicator, start dead reckoning
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he should, its called partial panel. I see way to many people nowadays dependent on the electronics. The DPE should have them do a full GPS to demonstrate the procedure and equipment knowledge, then work down to a raw data ILS and VOR.

I had more than one FO have the deer in the headlights look when we had to do a NDB approach to get into some of the airports in the islands.
 
First thing I did on my IR ride was the hand the DPE a folder with all the paper approach plates and told him that was my backup to the iPad, would he please hold on to it.
 
+1 Randy that's a smart idea for the instrument checkride! Fortunately I really only need to carry six approach plates for San Diego: MYF, SEE, CRQ, RNM, SAN and SDM.
 
LoxaBagels said:
Shop for a DPE that is serious about the checkride and not his/her personal preferences in regard to technology. Paper charts are archaic, just as VORs are also old tech and can't be phased out soon enough...
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I agree with you 100% re: paper charts.

I have not had one in a plane for years, and likely never will again.
 
This is a timely topic for me, as I'm prepping for my PPL checkride. Call me belt and suspenders, but I have Foreflight on both an iPad mini2 and an iPhone 6+ connected to a Stratus2. The plane has a GTN650 and I keep a sectional and plotter in the front pocket of my bag. I understand the DPE we're planning to use likes EFB, if you have at least one backup, but I'm also kinda afraid of looking like a gadget dork. Maybe I am a gadget dork? But I want to be thought of as a conscientious pilot with good resource management, not a toy-dependent magenta line follower. I can dead-reckon, fly a VOR heading and I at least understand ADF/NDB (but none of our planes have one).

I'm probably just overthinking the whole thing, yes?
 
ettsn said:
This is a timely topic for me, as I'm prepping for my PPL checkride. Call me belt and suspenders, but I have Foreflight on both an iPad mini2 and an iPhone 6+ connected to a Stratus2. The plane has a GTN650 and I keep a sectional and plotter in the front pocket of my bag. I understand the DPE we're planning to use likes EFB, if you have at least one backup, but I'm also kinda afraid of looking like a gadget dork. Maybe I am a gadget dork? But I want to be thought of as a conscientious pilot with good resource management, not a toy-dependent magenta line follower. I can dead-reckon, fly a VOR heading and I at least understand ADF/NDB (but none of our planes have one).

I'm probably just overthinking the whole thing, yes?
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My two cents would be plot your CC on a paper chart and produce a paper flight plan showing you can do and understand the appropriate calculations... then have everything loaded in Foreflight and explain that the paper is your backup but the EFB lets you more efficiently manage the cockpit in a single pilot situation. If you're using the GPS on the iPad go out of your way to point out that you know this is for situational awareness only and not for primary navigation.

That would demonstrate both knowledge of the fundamentals but also demonstrate good resource management.
 
Did both my PPL and IFR check ride (different DPE's) using the Ipad for charts and plates (I also had backup paper charts/plates in my flight bag just in case)

I asked in the beginning of the check ride if that was ok and both of them said please use what you are planning on using during regular flight.

I do have to admit it felt a little like cheating on my PPL when I had to divert and he asked what airport was closest, what was the distance, heading, and time to get there.
So with foreflight up I touched the screen with two fingers (current location and nearest airport) then read the information off the rubber band scale. and he checked it off..
 
With four different gadgets in the airplane, I'd be concerned about heads-down distractions managing all that.

They also can block instruments. There are only so many places to mount them.
 
rocketflyer84 said:
My two cents would be plot your CC on a paper chart and produce a paper flight plan showing you can do and understand the appropriate calculations... then have everything loaded in Foreflight and explain that the paper is your backup but the EFB lets you more efficiently manage the cockpit in a single pilot situation. If you're using the GPS on the iPad go out of your way to point out that you know this is for situational awareness only and not for primary navigation.

That would demonstrate both knowledge of the fundamentals but also demonstrate good resource management.
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I agree. I generally find "paper v. plastic" arguments inherently silly. I'm definitely in the EFB camp (no paper charts for 4 years) but paper does have some distinct advantages in training and testing. Two people (CFI & student; Examiner & applicant) can examine, review, mark, calculate, point, etc at a chart spread out on a table a lot easier than on a mini.
 
MAKG1 said:
With four different gadgets in the airplane, I'd be concerned about heads-down distractions managing all that.

They also can block instruments. There are only so many places to mount them.
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Hopefully, the back-up electronics, like back-up paper are in a location that is accessible but not out there as a distraction.

But I definitely agree with your point that, at some point, the redundancy itself can be distracting (if not at some point a sign of being a bit too anal :D)
 
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MAKG1 said:
With four different gadgets in the airplane, I'd be concerned about heads-down distractions managing all that.

They also can block instruments. There are only so many places to mount them.
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Good point. I use the iPhone 6+ on a yoke mount that doesn't block anything, and the iPad mini on a knee board. The Stratus is suction cupped to a rear window, but nothing to look at on it. I mostly use the GTN650 which is panel mounted as my primary device, with the others acting as information (A/FD, etc). I'm pretty good about keeping my eyes outside the airplane. I've worked to keep my instrument reference scan down to only a few seconds per minute, and mostly keep scanning for traffic. This habit was pressed into me by my CFI from day one -- VFR requires you to look mostly outside the airplane!
 
ettsn said:
This is a timely topic for me, as I'm prepping for my PPL checkride. Call me belt and suspenders, but I have Foreflight on both an iPad mini2 and an iPhone 6+ connected to a Stratus2. The plane has a GTN650 and I keep a sectional and plotter in the front pocket of my bag. I understand the DPE we're planning to use likes EFB, if you have at least one backup, but I'm also kinda afraid of looking like a gadget dork. Maybe I am a gadget dork? But I want to be thought of as a conscientious pilot with good resource management, not a toy-dependent magenta line follower. I can dead-reckon, fly a VOR heading and I at least understand ADF/NDB (but none of our planes have one).

I'm probably just overthinking the whole thing, yes?
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Here is a scary thought for you. I only flew with steam gauges for about two hours. The rest was in my own plane with Dynon glass and Garmin 796 WAAS/GPS for nav and EFB.

After boarding the plane the DPE turned off the Garmin. The whole ride was via pilotage and dead-reckoning.

After completing part of the flight plan he had me put on the foggles. At one point he gave a series of under hood headings turning the plane left, then right, then 280 degrees to the right - maintaining altitude. At that point he said, okay tell me where St. George, UT is....

Don't assume you will get to use anything you bring or get to use your nifty flight plan with it's waypoints and navaids...but then, maybe you will get to use them all...
 
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My understanding is they can ask you to demonstrate any approach that the airplane is equipped to fly, so I would expect an NDB approach. ;) I would probably get an "in op" sticker and place it on the ADF, but I am creative that way! :rofl:

Bonchie said:
We've got an ADF in the plane. I've found flying approaches with it pretty simple.

Most of them are just "fly to NDB, track outbound, PT, fly inbound to MDA."

I'm taking my checkride in about two weeks. I'm curious whether he'll even test anything with the ADF besides just asking me how it works.
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