EFB versus paper charts and plates on checkride

I've not had a single iPad failure or shutdown in the past 160+ hours of flying.

My iPad is on my knee virtually all the time and has never shut down due to overheating on a "warm" day. This goes for my 1st gen Mini and the iPad Air I now use.

I still maintain that there's an issue with your hardware, or some sort of user error if you've had that many failures.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
I've not had a single iPad failure or shutdown in the past 160+ hours of flying.

My iPad is on my knee virtually all the time and has never shut down due to overheating on a "warm" day. This goes for my 1st gen Mini and the iPad Air I now use.

I still maintain that there's an issue with your hardware, or some sort of user error if you've had that many failures.
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So tell me, what kind of user error could cause it to overheat just while sitting on my lap?

Short of directly applying an unusual heat source, it should be impossible for me to overheat it. It clearly is not.

You do know I've had more than one tablet, right?

Blaming the user for design faults is a very old tactic. If it did happen to be bad hardware, it's much too easy to get ahold of such hardware. But I don't buy it. Most of the faults look like run of the mill stupid design errors.
 
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FWIW, I've flown with paper, aircraft mounted EFB's and tablets, never had a problem with any of them.

If I did? Just ask ATC. My EFB dies, just ask ATC for the ILS frequency, inbound course, mins, etc.

I really don't see this an issue.
 
RotorAndWing said:
FWIW, I've flown with paper, aircraft mounted EFB's and tablets, never had a problem with any of them.

If I did? Just ask ATC. My EFB dies, just ask ATC for the ILS frequency, inbound course, mins, etc.

I really don't see this an issue.
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B-b-b-b-ut, ATC people are scary to talk to!

Honestly, that is my backup plan. Though, I have all the information except altitudes in the 430.
 
EdFred said:
B-b-b-b-ut, ATC people are scary to talk to!

Honestly, that is my backup plan. Though, I have all the information except altitudes in the 430.
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Same with the FMS, it's all in there as well (except for the minimums).

Back years ago (early '80's) I was flying a BE99 on a night cargo run. Weather was crap and I was flying into JAN (Jackson, MS) and I dropped my charts in the right seat floor.

I just asked approach for the freq, inbound and minimums. He gave it, then told me if I needed to miss just fly runway heading to 2000'.

Was really no big deal. :dunno:
 
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MAKG1 said:
So tell me, what kind of user error could cause it to overheat just while sitting on my lap?

Short of directly applying an unusual heat source, it should be impossible for me to overheat it. It clearly is not.

You do know I've had more than one tablet, right?

Blaming the user for design faults is a very old tactic. If it did happen to be bad hardware, it's much too easy to get ahold of such hardware. But I don't buy it. Most of the faults look like run of the mill stupid design errors.
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I'm not using any "tactic". Your failure rate doesn't jive with the norm. It's either a hardware or user issue. Well that, or you're using Android devices:)

I might add, laying it on the glareshield on an 80 degree day would count as an unusual heat source, especially considering that it is common knowledge that tablets shut down temporarily if they overheat.

No, I don't know what kind/how many tablets you use.
 
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RotorAndWing said:
FWIW, I've flown with paper, aircraft mounted EFB's and tablets, never had a problem with any of them.

If I did? Just ask ATC. My EFB dies, just ask ATC for the ILS frequency, inbound course, mins, etc.

I really don't see this an issue.
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Of course it's not an issue.

As some folks like to say, sometimes we need to scrap the technology and rely on raw data.

The sky isn't falling. The dead iPad scenario only involves a loss of charts so one could always load it into the GPS, so we might only need a small portion of that information anyway.
 
Bonchie said:
For training I never had the GPS on with the IPad. That was a personal choice to make sure I was proficient without the added situational awareness of it.



On the check ride I finally had it on. I'd suggest similar so you know you aren't dependent on it. Most DPE won't fail it entirely, but will take it away for one approach.
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Same here.

I was about halfway through the second approach when I realized how useful the little blue airplane symbol that I now had, was.

Haha. Was just flying the thing... Didn't care. Was kinda nice once I realized I had it the whole time. ;)
 
MAKG1 said:
However, I have seen people reluctant to fly without an iPad. That's problematic. The iPad should never be essential.
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Why not? If that is your source of charts, it's essential. If you forget the iPad then yeah you could go buy a chart but if all your notes and courses are on the iPad you'll waste a boatload of time redoing it all on paper.

Yes it's OK for the iPad to be essential.
 
Paper is the end all be all of everything, don't you dare embrace technology.
 
petrolero said:
Why not? If that is your source of charts, it's essential. If you forget the iPad then yeah you could go buy a chart but if all your notes and courses are on the iPad you'll waste a boatload of time redoing it all on paper.

Yes it's OK for the iPad to be essential.
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If all your notes and courses are on the iPad and it has ANY problem, you're screwed.

Back it up, or don't depend on it.

It's not OK. With stuff like this, you have to ask yourself, "How would this look on an NTSB report?" If you hit an obstruction 'cause your iPad overheated during an instrument departure and you missed a turn in your clearance, it's your fault, not the iPad's.
 
You might be the only one that has these issues with iPads that crash more than they don't. I think you're the only one on the board that has had any issue.
 
A box with electrons and interdependent software has many more failure modes than a paper chart. Clearly. We (or some of us) accept the reduced reliability for the increase in utility.

And there isn't a good reason to crash because your EFB failed (or you dropped your chart or Jepp binder under the seat). Ask the approach controller for what you need. In my case, the Garmin 530 pretty much has all I need to know, even for a non-GPS approach.
 
MAKG1 said:
If all your notes and courses are on the iPad and it has ANY problem, you're screwed.
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Don't agree.

It's not OK. With stuff like this, you have to ask yourself, "How would this look on an NTSB report?" If you hit an obstruction 'cause your iPad overheated during an instrument departure and you missed a turn in your clearance, it's your fault, not the iPad's.
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Show me an NTSB report that lists an EFB failure as the primary cause of the crash.
 
EdFred said:
You might be the only one that has these issues with iPads that crash more than they don't. I think you're the only one on the board that has had any issue.
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It doesn't crash THAT often. But it does crash, and it's a risk that needs consideration.

I call BS that I'm the only person who has had an iPad overheat.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
Don't agree.



Show me an NTSB report that lists an EFB failure as the primary cause of the crash.
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Don't be silly. The report would say the pilot failed to follow his clearance or didn't maintain adequate terrain clearance. They wouldn't know about an EFB failure unless the pilot broadcast it somehow. It would still look like incompetent piloting, and the primary cause would be pilot error.
 
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I have had my iPad overheat and shut down yep. If I left it sitting on the glareshield or seat in direct sunlight. Never happened strapped to my knee or the yoke though.
 
Looks like in most of those cases, the EFB worked exactly as intended.
 
MAKG1 said:
If all your notes and courses are on the iPad and it has ANY problem, you're screwed.

Back it up, or don't depend on it.

It's not OK. With stuff like this, you have to ask yourself, "How would this look on an NTSB report?" If you hit an obstruction 'cause your iPad overheated during an instrument departure and you missed a turn in your clearance, it's your fault, not the iPad's.
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MAKG1 said:
Technology is fine. Magic is not. Know the difference.

All technology has limitations.
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MAKG1 said:
It doesn't crash THAT often. But it does crash, and it's a risk that needs consideration.

I call BS that I'm the only person who has had an iPad overheat.
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MAKG1 said:
Don't be silly. The report would say the pilot failed to follow his clearance or didn't maintain adequate terrain clearance. They wouldn't know about an EFB failure unless the pilot broadcast it somehow. It would still look like incompetent piloting, and the primary cause would be pilot error.
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No. You're not "screwed" and yes it is very much OK. Take a breath, man, your imagination is running amok. You should try flying more often with an iPad. :D

People who use EFBs do back them up - sometimes even with paper so that should give you comfort. Pilots in this thread and many others have discussed the many ways they back up their EFBs.

But you still seem to insist that the only possible thing that one can rely upon in the cockpit is paper. zomg! EFBs can fail!

Lots of things in an airplane can fail. That's why we have alternatives and they aren't always made of paper. :dunno::rolleyes2:
 
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petrolero said:
No. You're not "screwed" and yes it is very much OK. Take a breath, man, your imagination is running amok. You should try flying more often with an iPad. :D

People who use EFBs do back them up - sometimes even with paper so that should give you comfort. Pilots in this thread and many others have discussed the many ways they back up their EFBs.

But you still seem to insist that the only possible thing that one can rely upon in the cockpit is paper. zomg! EFBs can fail!

Lots of things in an airplane can fail. That's why we have alternatives and they aren't always made of paper. :dunno::rolleyes2:
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If you say so.

You've quoted me, but you haven't understood.

I have no objection to an iPad per se. I have an objection to depending on an iPad.

The only part of this that is different from what you said are several comments that "it's OK for it to be 'essential.'" No, it isn't. Back it up. If it is backed up -- and backed up sensibly -- it is not essential.

You say people back it up, but several of the comments in this thread indicate that such backups are either omitted or insufficient.

My iPad overheated right before an instrument flight a few weeks ago. What were my outs? I had paper handy and very close within reach, and if that didn't work, I didn't have to take off. Turns out, the paper was fine. Big surprise.

Sure, there are non-paper alternatives. But MANY people here don't do the redundancy correctly. Another iPad is not necessarily redundant -- there are several failure modes that can correlate across units. The best redundancy is as different as possible. It's almost as good to back up an iPad with an Android tablet, with a different app.
 
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MAKG1 said:
If you say so.

You've quoted me, but you haven't understood.

I have no objection to an iPad per se. I have an objection to depending on an iPad.

The only part of this that is different from what you said are several comments that "it's OK for it to be 'essential.'" No, it isn't. Back it up. If it is backed up -- and backed up sensibly -- it is not essential.

You say people back it up, but several of the comments in this thread indicate that such backups are either omitted or insufficient.

My iPad overheated right before an instrument flight a few weeks ago. What were my outs? I had paper handy and very close within reach, and if that didn't work, I didn't have to take off. Turns out, the paper was fine. Big surprise.

Sure, there are non-paper alternatives. But MANY people here don't do the redundancy correctly. Another iPad is not necessarily redundant -- there are several failure modes that can correlate across units. The best redundancy is as different as possible. It's almost as good to back up an iPad with an Android tablet, with a different app.
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You expressed disbelief that someone might not be willing to fly without their EFB. I said why would they fly if they didn't have their main source of maps and planning and notes? You say that's not OK (I think :dunno: ). I say baloney.

If I have an iPad and forget it at the house, then all I'm left with is, say, my phone. While that is a source of charts, it has no backup. So in that situation I'm going to either get my iPad or I'm not flying. Does that shock you?

The iPad in that scenario is essential by my definition but perhaps not by yours, I don't know.

If you are defining essential as something like an iPad with no backup then fine, I agree with that as not being OK. But people back up their iPads usually with their iPhones. And that is perfectly OK.
 
petrolero said:
If you are defining essential as something like an iPad with no backup then fine, I agree with that as not being OK. But people back up their iPads usually with their iPhones. And that is perfectly OK.
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The argument to that which has been presented is a failure mode that knocks out both the tablet and the phone at the same time. Not that I have any idea what that might be:dunno:

Seems a rather unlikely scenario.
 
iPads don't need a "heat source" per se to shut down... Direct sunlight has an effect on them. I don't know the science of it...

But my plane has a full canopy. When I leave the iPad on my knee board and fly an hour or so it will shut down on the overheat, but I'm at 7500' and quite comfortable in the cockpit.

So, I now keep it in a knee board with a cover (that has a paper pad on the outside) and I flip it open when I need to reference it. This is working to prevent the shutdowns, even though the cockpit temperatures are relatively equal.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
The argument to that which has been presented is a failure mode that knocks out both the tablet and the phone at the same time. Not that I have any idea what that might be:dunno:

Seems a rather unlikely scenario.
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If they're both iOS based and running the same software (ForeFlight, WingX, what have you) then a bug which crashes one might very well crash both. Dissimilar SW makes a real redundant backup. Identical, maybe, maybe not. Same thing applies to Android. Same OS, same SW, same bug. That's assuming it's a SW bug which is apparently not a likely as simple overheating or running out of battery.

I do still carry paper for sectionals (and a TAC). But I've never yet landed outside the state of Florida. So I carry 2. I do not get the paper approach charts any more, but I've stopped training for my IR right now anyway.

John
 
rolivi said:
iPads don't need a "heat source" per se to shut down... Direct sunlight has an effect on them. I don't know the science of it...

But my plane has a full canopy. When I leave the iPad on my knee board and fly an hour or so it will shut down on the overheat, but I'm at 7500' and quite comfortable in the cockpit.

So, I now keep it in a knee board with a cover (that has a paper pad on the outside) and I flip it open when I need to reference it. This is working to prevent the shutdowns, even though the cockpit temperatures are relatively equal.
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That is funny. I do Something a little similar in terms of covering my iPad when I don't need to reference it.

Actually, I don't cover it now. I just shut the screen off. I think the reason it works to help prevent heat shutdown is that the primary source of heat Is the iPad's own screen, which is going to be at its brightest setting in a brightly lit sunny cockpit. Shutting it off It also saves battery life.

Why funny? While those may gave been the positive effects of shutting it off or in your case covering it, putting the charts aside when I am not actively using them is exactly the same as what I did with the paper version. Paper or plastic, a chart is a chart.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
The argument to that which has been presented is a failure mode that knocks out both the tablet and the phone at the same time. Not that I have any idea what that might be:dunno:

Seems a rather unlikely scenario.
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He's just imagining a scenario that would seem to require paper as the solution. :rolleyes:

Sorry, there's no failure mode (including an app defect) that couldn't be detected on the ground that would happen suddenly in flight to both iphone and ipad. In any case, there are ways to back up apps on an iPad also.

It's not enough to just say "could happen". Hell if that's the standard then CERN "could" accidentally open up a mini black hole that swallows the earth. :dunno: There are theoretical failure modes that are only relevant to internet forums.

If both the iPhone and iPad failed suddenly in flight it still isn't the end of the world as long as I have eyeballs and a radio. And there are guys who barely have one of those.
 
I'm doing a 3 hour IFR XC tomorrow. I plan to only look at my IPAD during the entire flight.... How would I log that?
 
Anyway you like, unless using the time to qualify for a rating or currency. I'd log it as 3.0 Xctry, and if it was in IMC, as IMC for whatever time you were in the clag, if you are instrument rated; if not, larger issues are in play.

If you are alone, and use just the iPad, no one but you will know, will they?
 
I'm using paper to start with as I had issues today in the cockpit with my iPad not connecting to GPS. I'll get a yoke clip for the paper approach plates and see if my iOS update fixed my iPad GPS issue.
 
Blueangel said:
I'm using paper to start with as I had issues today in the cockpit with my iPad not connecting to GPS. I'll get a yoke clip for the paper approach plates and see if my iOS update fixed my iPad GPS issue.
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What EFB are you using? You can view and utilize charts on an EFB without being connected to a GPS. If you're trying to navigate an IFR approach following the line via an EFB then you're doing it wrong.
 
He may mean that he's using the GPS function to help with situational awareness. I hope so anyways!
 
Correct the EFB I'm using is Foreflight as situation awareness with approach plates. I'm navigating with VOR and DME since the plane does not have GPS.
 
Blueangel said:
Correct the EFB I'm using is Foreflight as situation awareness with approach plates. I'm navigating with VOR and DME since the plane does not have GPS.
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Just threw me off why you would need a paper chart because your GPS wasn't working.
 
Need paper charts as backup to the EFB. To navigate I am focus using VOR and DME.
 
Ok but what he's trying to say is that the loss of GPS shouldn't interfere with your ability to display the plate on your iPad. Your first post makes it sound like your GPS went out and so you couldn't utilize the plate because of that.
 
Correct, what I meant to say is that the plates appear fine and ok on my iPad with Foreflight but the miniature airplane does not track on the map. No big deal since I am using VOR and DME but its nice SA to aid in flying approaches and navigating.
 
Blueangel said:
I'm using paper to start with as I had issues today in the cockpit with my iPad not connecting to GPS. I'll get a yoke clip for the paper approach plates and see if my iOS update fixed my iPad GPS issue.
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Does your paper connect to GPS? :D

Smart ass answer. My guess is that the lack of connection between iPad and GPS makes you overall suspicious of the entire iPad as an EFB? Why?

OkieAviator said:
What EFB are you using? You can view and utilize charts on an EFB without being connected to a GPS. If you're trying to navigate an IFR approach following the line via an EFB then you're doing it wrong.
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This.
 
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