EFB versus paper charts and plates on checkride

[Bonchie]

Your experience matters because it indicates what level of experience you're speaking from. With your statements I'd wager you arnt exactly a high time ATP.

Knowing how to use the latest tech is important, being able to fly the damn plane without said tech is even more important.

Forget breaking the GPS, how about something realistic that has occurred before, "your ipad has just overheated, where's your chart"

Go argue with the FAA.

Stop assuming everyone who uses an IPad is an idiot who can't navigate without it.

 

[Bonchie]

So, no, it doesn't mean their opinion is incorrect, just not based on much experience or knowledge, kinda like the news station "aviation experts" reporting about all those Airbus 747 crashes

You realize "experience" had zero to do with my post. It had nothing to do with me (nor you). It takes no level of "experience" to relay what some DPEs told me.

 

[Bonchie]

Ya well these DPE's should come see how many hoops a certificate holder gets to jump through to add a very demanding EFB Op Spec...not to mention the 6 month testing and survey period tested across the entire pilot group....all that vs selecting an off the shelf OpSpec that can be signed almost instantly with paper. I wouldnt exactly call that "encouraging the use."

What hoops a commercial operation has to jump through aren't relevant. This was about the IFR ride.

The standard is simple. The FAA wants to evaluate you on what you will use in the cockpit on a normal flight. Including EFBs.

 

[James331]

Go argue with the FAA.

Stop assuming everyone who uses an IPad is an idiot who can't navigate without it.

Dude....

I use a ipad, I got zero issue with using all tools avalible.

For your initial PPL or IFR you need to prove you don't NEED it though.

But, crap, what do I know I just fly single pilot IFR for a living.

 

[Bonchie]

Dude....

I use a ipad, I got zero issue with using all tools avalible.

For your initial PPL or IFR you need to prove you don't NEED it though.

But, crap, what do I know I just fly single pilot IFR for a living.

You aren't the FAA nor are you a DPE.

My post was simply relaying information I received. It wasn't my opinion. If you feel it's IPads shouldn't be allowed on the ride (which you must, otherwise why disagree with my post in the first place?), go let the FAA know.

You know what you do if your IPad fails? You pull out your backup chart and plate book. Then you fly. It's not rocket science. They look the same on the IPad as they do on paper.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Oops, you're looking at an outdated AIM. The ASA 2015 edition has the table in AIM 1-1-18 and it's Table 1-1-5. Same concept, just a different reference source.

Didn't look up the IR PTS.

You are correct. I guess some folks are correct about relying on an iPad . The July 2015 update to ASA's FAR/AIM app does not cover the change that took place 6 months earlier.

 

[petrolero]

Ok.

So next time you think something's wrong with you, you'll hold the opinion of a first responder who just completed his cert, to the same level as a MD with over a decade experience?

No that's not a correct example. It's as if he reported a symptom to an MD and the MD asked him how much medical experience he has and whether he's qualified to even make a first-person observation. It doesn't matter - it's a first-person observation. If your first-person observations are different, say what your experiences are. But it makes no difference what his background is in that situation.

In other arguments it might, but not in this case. But hey it happens about every five minutes on this and many other inteweb forums so whatevs.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Oops, you're looking at an outdated AIM. The ASA 2015 edition has the table in AIM 1-1-18 and it's Table 1-1-5. Same concept, just a different reference source.

Didn't look up the IR PTS.

You are correct. I guess some folks are correct about relying on an iPad . The July 2015 update to ASA's FAR/AIM app does not cover the change that took place 6 months earlier.

Interesting discussion with ASA about this. Apparently, when they do an update on the iPad app, all they do is tack on AIM Change Notices. IOW the body of the ASA AIM still has it as 1-1-17; you have to know to look for the Change Notices to see if it's been updated in any way, just like with paper.

Guess I've been spoiled by my Summit subscription, where the incorporate changes into the body of the republication.

BTW, the table I was referring to is still 1-1-6, which is directly under 1-1-5; just the paragraph number was changed.

 

[MD11Pilot]

Wow! EFB's are bad. IPads are bad. I guess my company just getting rid of Domestic IFR charts are headed for a crash. I guess the very few International charts we still carry but NEVER look at is playing Russian Roulette. I guess as far as I know, ALL major airlines in the USA use some form of EFB to supplement the onboard FMC computers are dangerous.
When I fly GA I use a WAAS 430 and my IPad with a Stratus but I do carry a few backup charts. I carry a backup battery and plug the IPad into the cigarette lighter plug.
IF I was a DPE I would personally want to see competence demonstrated in both old and new school.

 

[Blueangel]

Well I carry paper as backup but with two tablets and a portable Garmin unit, I have plenty of redundancy. of course I cannot use the portables for instrument flying but they do nice supplement to VOR and ILS until I can budget for a new Garmin panel GPS in a year or two.

 

[Sundancer]

I tend to use my ForeFlight/Dual/iPad combo as "primary", until in the approach phase. By primary, I mean if I get an amended clearance, I get the flight plan updated in ForeFlight first, since the user interface is so much better than the Garmin 530. Ditto for looking at stuff like freqs, plates, airport info. Just a better, more intuitive, and quicker process. It's all in the Garmin, but I can get ForeFlight organized quicker - then I muck about with the panel mount.

The Garmin takes over in the approach phase - far more granular than the geo-referenced phase on ForeFlight, though I back myself up with it.

We have some charts, AFD, and procedures in the airplane, but I recently stopped buying my own paper documents. I still print off a few plates for my destination, and maybe my alternate.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I tend to use my ForeFlight/Dual/iPad combo as "primary", until in the approach phase. By primary, I mean if I get an amended clearance, I get the flight plan updated in ForeFlight first, since the user interface is so much better than the Garmin 530.

I kind of switch back and forth on that. I've found it to be just as fast to enter it directly into the 430/530/GTN but can catch entry errors more quickly by finding it on the tablet first (if it's in Agrentina, I'm pretty sure I did it wrong ). That's a big help especially when the new fix is unfamiliar and I need ATC to spell it for me.

Ditto for looking at stuff like freqs, plates, airport info. Just a better, more intuitive, and quicker process. It's all in the Garmin, but I can get ForeFlight organized quicker - then I muck about with the panel mount.

Definitely, just like it was easier to find some things on a paper chart.

The Garmin takes over in the approach phase - far more granular than the geo-referenced phase on ForeFlight, though I back myself up with it.

We have some charts, AFD, and procedures in the airplane, but I recently stopped buying my own paper documents. I still print off a few plates for my destination, and maybe my alternate.

There a wide swatch of personal preference with that. For example, I haven't flown with a paper chart on board in 4 years. Others have full sets for backup. And just about every imaginable variation in between.

 

[Sundancer]

I think I'd just ask the DPE on the initial call if he had a problem with EFB; if so, "Thanks for your time, but I'll try someone else".

You do get some bizarre takes on the "rules", and elevation of the trivial to the essential. It can even be funny sometimes, if it isn't you.

I flew with a great stick a few times (he's passed now) and he had long since stopped logging his time, beyond what he needed to prove currency. With thousands and thousands of hours, he just didn't care about writing it down anymore. I mean, he was in the air almost every day, for half a century or more. . .

Anyway, he instructed in a club we were in, and on some club flight check or another, the examiner was flabbergasted, accused him of mopery, dopery, and possible subversion, and was "sure" it was a FAA violation to not log all hours flown.

 

[denverpilot]

...but can catch entry errors more quickly by finding it on the tablet first (if it's in Agrentina, I'm pretty sure I did it wrong ).

There's a Foreflight wish list item: Do it like Avidyne is doing and show the closest waypoints to you / or the last waypoint that match the first characters as possible "solutions" as you type, when adding waypoints.

 

[OkieAviator]

Did my instrument checkride today. Used the EFB for everything. Even tried to show him my paper back up but he had no interest in them.

 

[AlanM]

Did my instrument checkride today. Used the EFB for everything. Even tried to show him my paper back up but he had no interest in them.

Did you have to ask for the DPE's "permission" to use the EFB, or did you at least mention it to him during your initial phone call, if such a call did occur?

 

[fiveoboy01]

Why would you need or want to ask permission?

If you're competent you should be able to use both. I'm learning with both. The iPad is a better choice because I don't have a terminal procedures book open in my lap which is cumbersome. It's much faster to locate plates with the iPad as well.

I'll use my iPad for the check ride and I won't ask. If he wants to fail it, I'll have paper ready.

 

[OkieAviator]

Did you have to ask for the DPE's "permission" to use the EFB, or did you at least mention it to him during your initial phone call, if such a call did occur?

Just asked him if I needed to do anything. He just said plan a flight, but we're not going to fly it.

EFB didn't come up at all.

 

[Bonchie]

Used mine on my entire Checkride minus the partial panel LOC approach we did. Never even mentioned it before or after that.

 

[AlanM]

Why would you need or want to ask permission?

If you're competent you should be able to use both. I'm learning with both. The iPad is a better choice because I don't have a terminal procedures book open in my lap which is cumbersome. It's much faster to locate plates with the iPad as well.

I'll use my iPad for the check ride and I won't ask. If he wants to fail it, I'll have paper ready.

You're the super pilot then! Good for you.

 

[Bonchie]

For training I never had the GPS on with the IPad. That was a personal choice to make sure I was proficient without the added situational awareness of it.

On the check ride I finally had it on. I'd suggest similar so you know you aren't dependent on it. Most DPE won't fail it entirely, but will take it away for one approach.

 

[rocketflyer84]

Did you have to ask for the DPE's "permission" to use the EFB, or did you at least mention it to him during your initial phone call, if such a call did occur?

Did you need to ask permission to use the attitude indicator?

I know some people are still in the Stone Age, but the FAA considers EFBs to be a normal piece of equipment. It's not "cheating" or something you need to ask permission to use.

Like any piece of equipment it can fail and you need to be prepared to handle such a situation (the most recent book of approach charts in the flight bag or a backup EFB is easy insurance in this dept).

Honestly any DPE that completely bans an EFB from the checkride because they don't like them or whatever should probably be referred to the local FISDO for a chat.

 

[fiveoboy01]

That^... Referencing the super pilot comment, definitely not. It's utilizing every tool I have available in the cockpit. IFR is tough and why make it tougher by eliminating things that help to make it easier? The anti EFB, anti GPS crowd puzzles me.

 

[EdFred]

That^... Referencing the super pilot comment, definitely not. It's utilizing every tool I have available in the cockpit. IFR is tough and why make it tougher by eliminating things that help to make it easier? The anti EFB, anti GPS crowd puzzles me.

It's not ANTI- it's that you should be able to do it old school.

Like you should be able to multiply 23 by 51 without the use of a calculator. It's doesn't mean you can't use a calculator, but you better know the concept behind it.

EFB (planning) only pilots are clueless on wind triangles.

 

[MAKG1]

For training I never had the GPS on with the IPad. That was a personal choice to make sure I was proficient without the added situational awareness of it.

On the check ride I finally had it on. I'd suggest similar so you know you aren't dependent on it. Most DPE won't fail it entirely, but will take it away for one approach.

They will also take away your attitude indicator for one approach. And probably your autopilot, for one approach.

I had the dreaded iPad over temp on Saturday. On a Mini -- they aren't supposed to do that so easily. That would have been a problem if I hadn't trained to fly without it.

 

[Bonchie]

They will also take away your attitude indicator for one approach. And probably your autopilot, for one approach.

I had the dreaded iPad over temp on Saturday. On a Mini -- they aren't supposed to do that so easily. That would have been a problem if I hadn't trained to fly without it.

I've already taken the check ride.

He took the DG as well. On that approach, he worked in all the failures. Vacuum instruments, the 430/IPad, etc. It was just the non-vacuum instruments and the localizer to follow for me. I don't have an autopilot in the plane I used so that wasn't a factor.

 

[Blueangel]

So if you brought 2 tablets, an iPhone and hand held GPS would the DPE be likely to fail all four EFB items? That would be weird to have all fail at same time! My new iPhone 6Plus is great for Foreflight and holds room for approach plates and moving map.

 

[MAKG1]

So if you brought 2 tablets, an iPhone and hand held GPS would the DPE be likely to fail all four EFB items? That would be weird to have all fail at same time! My new iPhone 6Plus is great for Foreflight and holds room for approach plates and moving map.

If you think they can't all fail at the same time, you don't read your NOTAMs.

 

[Bonchie]

So if you brought 2 tablets, an iPhone and hand held GPS would the DPE be likely to fail all four EFB items? That would be weird to have all fail at same time! My new iPhone 6Plus is great for Foreflight and holds room for approach plates and moving map.

There are two different issues here. The IPad as just charts/plates and the GPS part of it.

If you bring 2 tablets, will he fail both completely? Likely, no. But he can (and will) fail the GPS on both. Which means you have no more geo-referencing or panel mounted GPS.

That's why I only used my IPad for charts and plates in training. I didn't even want to build into my routine a sub-conscious reliance on the GPS functionality in it.

If there's a signal issue, every GPS device is done for and that's what they want to simulate. Can you default immediately to your backup navigational source when your panel GPS goes out? They want to see you do it and they aren't going to let you keep the IPad with GPS on at that point either for obvious reasons. They aren't so much worried about your electronic charts.

 

[EdFred]

So if you brought 2 tablets, an iPhone and hand held GPS would the DPE be likely to fail all four EFB items? That would be weird to have all fail at same time! My new iPhone 6Plus is great for Foreflight and holds room for approach plates and moving map.

If you were running the same software/OS on all the devices, I would fail all of them.

"Looks like a bug in ForeFlight what's your backup plan?"

 

[midlifeflyer]

It's not ANTI- it's that you should be able to do it old school.

I think most if not all GPS and iPad users would agree that one should be able to do it old school. But reading through posts here and elsewhere, where you find posts such as " I am not stupid enough to carry an iPAd, I still use PAPER!!!!!!!!!!" (that's an exact quote), there is definitely an ANTI contingency.

 

[Bonchie]

I think most if not all GPS and iPad users would agree that one should be able to do it old school. But reading through posts here and elsewhere, where you find posts such as " I am not stupid enough to carry an iPAd, I still use PAPER!!!!!!!!!!" (that's an exact quote), there is definitely an ANTI contingency.

My DPE took me to school over the 430. Luckily, he didn't fail me over a few things I should of known.

So yeah, know how to do it old school, but you better know every inch of the new school as well because you'll get tested on it.

 

[MAKG1]

I think most if not all GPS and iPad users would agree that one should be able to do it old school. But reading through posts here and elsewhere, where you find posts such as " I am not stupid enough to carry an iPAd, I still use PAPER!!!!!!!!!!" (that's an exact quote), there is definitely an ANTI contingency.

Who said that?

I've never seen someone go that far, exçept perhaps as a joke.

However, I have seen people reluctant to fly without an iPad. That's problematic. The iPad should never be essential.

 

[MAKG1]

So yeah, know how to do it old school, but you better know every inch of the new school as well because you'll get tested on it.

There is one school of thought that you should take your ride in the simplest aircraft available, for this reason.

A 430 can be a huge distraction for a new pilot. It does way too much stuff. You're lucky he didn't ask you to calculate density altitude or run a RAIM prediction. Neither is difficult, but it's real far from the first things you learn on the device. And if you're really depending on it, the RAIM prediction is rather important.

 

[midlifeflyer]

If you were running the same software/OS on all the devices, I would fail all of them.

"Looks like a bug in ForeFlight what's your backup plan?"

I think that's a legitimate failure scenario - an app or OS problem. It's a reason why, although I never expect to need to use them, I have EFB backups that involve a different app and a different OS.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who has seen it - Pilot Workshops has been periodically making some of the scenarios available for free (probably a marketing strategy to get people interested). Their latest involves an iPad failure in flight with no backup. They don't say the reason but it's most likely overheating. It's actually quite good.

What If Your iPad Does This on an IFR Flight.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Who said that?

I've never seen someone go that far, exçept perhaps as a joke.

However, I have seen people reluctant to fly without an iPad. That's problematic. The iPad should never be essential.

As I said, word for word quote. Copy and paste actually. I read the follow-ups in the discussion and it doesn't appear to be a joke.

BTW, unlike you, I don't have a problem with people being reluctant to fly for any reason that makes them feel uncomfortable about flying that day regardless of what I might do in a similar situation.

How about reverse scenario?

A pilot who uses an iPad likes always carries paper charts as a backup. While performing the preflight, the paper charts blow off the wing where they are sitting and land in a puddle making them unusable. Lacking her paper charts, the pilot decides not to fly.​

"Problematic?"

 

[MAKG1]

How about reverse scenario?

A pilot who uses an iPad likes always carries paper charts as a backup. While performing the preflight, the paper charts blow off the wing where they are sitting and land in a puddle making them unusable. Lacking her paper charts, the pilot decides not to fly.​

"Problematic?"

If I was that stupid with my charts, I'd consider not flying for IMSAFE reasons.

You talk like this happens all the time. I've had half a dozen tablet failures, most recently an overheat, and not one paper chart failure. Ever. Paper charts certainly continue to work after having sat in the sun during run-up.

The decision to fly with no backups should not be made lightly. Especially if this was an IFR flight.

 

[Bonchie]

There is one school of thought that you should take your ride in the simplest aircraft available, for this reason.

A 430 can be a huge distraction for a new pilot. It does way too much stuff. You're lucky he didn't ask you to calculate density altitude or run a RAIM prediction. Neither is difficult, but it's real far from the first things you learn on the device. And if you're really depending on it, the RAIM prediction is rather important.

Sure, if you just want to have the easiest ride possible. But if you plan to use one after, you should learn it before.

ATC expects you to know how to use that 430 and there's no better time to do so then during IFR training with a CFII and getting tested on it by a DPE.

 

[midlifeflyer]

If I was that stupid with my charts, I'd consider not flying for IMSAFE reasons.

You talk like this happens all the time. I've had half a dozen tablet failures, most recently an overheat, and not one paper chart failure. Ever. Paper charts certainly continue to work after having sat in the sun during run-up.

I don't think I talk like it happens all the time. That's you and your iPad bias who talks like it happens to tablets all the time.

I have seen charts blow off a wing and fall into water. And slide off yoke clips and under seats irretrievably. And rip on well worn folds. And get spread out so the pilot can search for something and get so distracted, aircraft control is lost. Just as I've seen people place iPad on wings and other places where they will almost necessarily overheat, or have them drop off their laps or get distracted by them.

The difference between us (among others) is that I see the paper and plastic events as the same. A pilot that made an organizational mistake. OTOH, you see them as inherently different. When it happens with paper, the pilot is "stupid" (your words referring to my hypothetical pilot). If it happens with a tablet, it's the tablet's fault.

I quite understand your bias considering the issues you claim to have had with multiple failures. OTOH, I'm not the only one here who has used an iPad in flight for more than 4 years and never had it overheat, fail or crash. (I did have my Stratus overheat, however - admittedly a stupid pilot who left it on the glareshield during lunch on a sunny day in Florida. No big deal. I wasn't worried about thunderstorms so weather information wasn't an issue and my resulting no-GPS iPad was, well still and EFB with all the charts. And definitely not the Status's fault - after all, it didn't climb up on the glareshield itself to sunbathe).

The decision to fly with no backups should not be made lightly. Especially if this was an IFR flight

I do not fly IFR without backups. They just don't happen to be made of paper. I realize that to you, if it's not paper its not really a backup, but that's your issue, not mine.

 

[MAKG1]

I don't think I talk like it happens all the time. That's you and your iPad bias who talks like it happens to tablets all the time.

I have seen charts blow off a wing and fall into water. And slide off yoke clips and under seats irretrievably. And rip on well worn folds. And get spread out so the pilot can search for something and get so distracted, aircraft control is lost. Just as I've seen people place iPad on wings and other places where they will almost necessarily overheat, or have them drop off their laps or get distracted by them.

The difference between us (among others) is that I see the paper and plastic events as the same. A pilot that made an organizational mistake. OTOH, you see them as inherently different. When it happens with paper, the pilot is "stupid" (your words referring to my hypothetical pilot). If it happens with a tablet, it's the tablet's fault.

I quite understand your bias considering the issues you claim to have had with multiple failures. OTOH, I'm not the only one here who has used an iPad in flight for more than 4 years and never had it overheat, fail or crash. (I did have my Stratus overheat, however - admittedly a stupid pilot who left it on the glareshield during lunch on a sunny day in Florida. No big deal. I wasn't worried about thunderstorms so weather information wasn't an issue and my resulting no-GPS iPad was, well still and EFB with all the charts. And definitely not the Status's fault - after all, it didn't climb up on the glareshield itself to sunbathe).


I do not fly IFR without backups. They just don't happen to be made of paper. I realize that to you, if it's not paper its not really a backup, but that's your issue, not mine.

It's problematic that you're assuming your magic touch with tablets means they work for everyone.

That ANYONE would lose the use of charts because of having it on their lap in the sun on a warm (not hot) day for a 5 minute taxi and run-up makes the device design at best hit or miss. That action clearly should have been possible under all circumstances; it's not at all unreasonable to taxi with an iPad Mini on your lap. And if the sun were excessively hot, shouldn't I have felt uncomfortable?

I hope it never becomes your problem. You're assuming that because it hasn't happened yet, it won't happen, something you caution against in other contexts.

I keep getting thoroughly amazed just how bad these devices are. They are fine only if you are prepared for them to die at any time. It's a good thing I had my paper handy. Plus a second backup, as it was simulated IMC and I could go visual. The paper did give me mission assurance.

Would you consider it acceptable if your comm radio quit because it was in the sun?