EAA Going After AOPA's Market

wabower said:
Pipedream.
Click to expand...

Same thing when people ***** about politicians. When you point out the process to unseat the politician, they just say "It won't work."

Yep, it won't work if nobody bothers to try. Best way to ensure that you won't do something is to not bother trying.
 
I think the lifecycle of the AOPA member is much like mine. Initial enthusiasm, poring over the magazine, and taking interest in most everything AOPA represents and sponsors. After a few years of dues, they begin to lose interest, but still support them with dues because 'AOPA is the only one looking out for me as a pilot'. Then, after a few more years they begin to look closer into what they get, and what AOPA is doing, and the disillusionment begins to grow, but they still send in dues cause of some kind of guilt that they don't want to address.

At some point, they get to where some of us are now. They stop paying dues, and the cycle starts over again with a 'new' pilot. As long as AOPA has millions on the float, there will be no changes. The new pilots coming in need to outstrip the old pilots leaving in anger or frustration. That's why I recommend they concentrate on LSA/SP more.

Nothing will change at AOPA as long as they are flush with cash. They can clearly afford a few dozen salaries > $200k/year so why change anything? There is no way to cut the heads off the hydra. They'll have to be starved out. I like the idea of a start-up because I like that kind of radical change. Give the new pilots an option, but as long as there is one and only one AOPA, they get to do whatever they want with little regard for 'membership'.

Oh, and they really don't get the backlash about things like the wine club. Not a bad idea per-se, but really poorly implemented. If the wine club had offered a decent discount for volume and some other benes like a tasting/sampling it would have succeeded. All they did was sell the member list and then that group marked up their product 10-20% and put an 'AOPA' sticker on it.
 
How do you treat cancer when the patient is as much tumor as healthy tissue? AOPA as it exists is ready for hospice,
 
airdale said:
Yes. There should also be a nomination mechanism through which any member can run for the board.

Knowing full well that typing this is a total waste of time, I'll suggest one path that could transform AOPA:

Board of Trustees (BOT) actions:

  • Resolve that all future annual meetings of the corporation will be held as open sessions at the AOPA convention.
  • Submit their resignations en masse, effective the 2014 convention.
  • Develop a BOT nomination process (probably by petition) that balances member opportunity and limiting the candidates to a reasonable number. Optionally, there can be additional nominations by a board committee. Any sitting member of the 2013 BOT can be automatically nominated if they wish to continue to serve.
  • With staff, work out a schedule that gives time for member notification and the nomination process itself, followed by publication of nominee's resumes and position statements with a paper ballot bound into that issue of the magazine. Announce the results in the magazine issue preceding the convention.
  • As N801BH suggested, hire an outside organization to count ballots and certify results.
  • Hold a brief organizational meeting (of the new board) on or before the first day of the 2014 convention, then hold the annual meeting of the corporation as scheduled. Accept that it will be a little raggedy-andy as the new board learns to operate.

Some of the implementation details:


  • The new BOT should establish some means to stagger its members' terms going forward so that approximately 1/3 of the board is up for election each year.
  • BOT member expenses to attend meetings to be paid by AOPA, preventing it from being a rich man's club.
  • Term limits should be established, allowing no member to serve longer than a certain number of terms, maybe two.
  • Substantive summaries of all board meetings and actions to be published on line in a timely fashion following each meetiing.

Pie in the sky. The only people who could implement such a revolution are the insiders who benefit from the current system.
Click to expand...

I would suggest a bit of a different structure.

First, take the current BoT and make them an "Advisory Board". That way you keep them around for fundraising and such.

Next, restructure the BoT into a representative Board of the membership. Split the country into regions, and each region would elect members to the BoT. Perhaps have members declare as "Owners" or "Pilots" and have one rep each in each region (as owners and pilots often have slightly different interests, let them both be represented).

Voting could be fairly straightforward. Log into a site with your AOPA ID and it provides you with biographies and pitches of candidates, you click "I vote for Jim-Bob" and once the polling closes, voila. Done.

Regional directors could well serve a dual role: 1) Representing the members to AOPA, and 2) Representing AOPA to the members. Suddenly if you have a regional director within 500 miles of somewhere, they can go and show the flag with a 182, no jet needed.
 
N801BH said:
When you have the board member selection committee consisting of sitting board members and the voting done by them only through the proxy system then the potential for imbreeding / cronyism/ good ol boy network is ripe and more often then not it leads to a top heavy, corrupt board..IMHO...
Click to expand...

And if you make everyone directly elected, you get a name recognition contest in which qualifications to actually get the job done are not the priority. You wind up with the aviation equivalent of the US Senate, which is at least as corrupt pandering to voters as it was before Senators were directly elected, and were responsible instead to their respective state legislatures.

There is a reason companies don't hire people based on a vote among employees.

I don't think it's as much a governance issue as it is a matter of being out of touch. Regionally elected directors might help, but it's no guarantee.
 
I would suggest a bit of a different structure.
Click to expand...
That works, too. If the BOT abandons the elitist/paternalistic/patrons-and-serfs model, there are many alternatives by which the members could become involved.

In the long term, too, an internet-based nomination and election process (as you suggest) is clearly the way to go. Initially though, my thought was that requiring this might be a barrier to some members' participation. Maybe not. I don't know.

And if you make everyone directly elected, you get a name recognition contest in which qualifications to actually get the job done are not the priority.
Click to expand...
"No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…" Winston Churchill, House of Commons, 11 November 1947
 
TomHaines said:
Nick, I've been lurking for months and seeing/hearing the concerns and providing feedback to others on the leadership team based on what is said here.

I don't mean to come across as defensive. I'm just trying to bring some insider perspective and additional information forward that those here may not be privy to and that might help explain some of AOPA's actions.
Click to expand...

Tom,

Lots of talk here about the jet, and the things folks don't like. I wish I was able to worry about things like that.

I'm a two year AOPA member. Just learned to fly. Then I got sick. Now I'm better. Still trying to get my medical back. My condition was rare, no previous track record to follow.

My partner kept telling me, call AOPA, they'll help you. So I called. With my credit card in hand, yet knowing what was going to happen.

I spoke with a very nice lady, who explained to me that in her long service with AOPA, she'd never seen a case like mine (I was not surprised). She offered to call the FAA for me, and she did. Called me right back, and basically told me that there wasn't much help she could provide and the FAA's advice was, send in your information and we'll look at it. Then she turned me away, saying there wasn't much you guys could do for me.

I understand why. My condition is rare, and it would cost your experts more than $100 bucks to figure it out. However, I'm a bit disillusioned, as most of your sales pitches were focused on your group being there when I needed you. Guess what? I need you.

My partner is/was floored. I was not surprised. I'm an unprofitable client, outside of the mainstream. I did not have a heart attack, nor do I have diabetes. So, there is no pre-laid out plan to follow. It's going to take work, and lots of time and money.

Please convey this to your management. I could care less about the politics, and whether you fly on a private jet or take American. I just want to fly in my little Cessna for a hamburger on Saturday, and to take my family to the beach twice a year.
 
Last edited:
retailguy said:
Tom,

Lots of talk here about the jet, and the things folks don't like. I wish I was able to worry about things like that.

I'm a two year AOPA member. Just learned to fly. Then I got sick. Now I'm better. Still trying to get my medical back. My condition was rare, no previous track record to follow.

My partner kept telling me, call AOPA, they'll help you. So I called. With my credit card in hand, yet knowing what was going to happen.

I spoke with a very nice lady, who explained to me that in her long service with AOPA, she'd never seen a case like mine (I was not surprised). She offered to call the FAA for me, and she did. Called me right back, and basically told me that there wasn't much help she could provide and the FAA's advice was, send in your information and we'll look at it. Then she turned me away, saying there wasn't much you guys could do for me.

I understand why. My condition is rare, and it would cost your experts more than $100 bucks to figure it out. However, I'm a bit disillusioned, as most of your sales pitches were focused on your group being there when I needed you. Guess what? I need you.

My partner is/was floored. I was not surprised. I'm an unprofitable client, outside of the mainstream. I did not have a heart attack, nor do I have diabetes. So, there is no pre-laid out plan to follow. It's going to take work, and lots of time and money.

Please convey this to your management. I could care less about the politics, and whether you fly on a private jet or take American. I just want to fly in my little Cessna for a hamburger on Saturday, and to take my family to the beach twice a year.
Click to expand...

Jeez... First, welcome to POA. We've got a guy here who will be along shortly to help you more than AOPA ever would. Doc Bruce is gonna get it done if it can be done. Next, this sounds exactly like AOPA. They need your dues, but they don't need your hassles. It's a one way club and if you aren't in the club more than a dues payer, it's tough shyte from them.

I am wrancled about the jet more because of what it costs that could be better spent on buying more senators than on the image it projects. The 'jet set' is not what I wanted AOPA to be like when I joined in 1979. Back then, it was good folk, with a genuine interest in all things GA. Now - it's just about what they can squeeze out of the group. Attack On Pilot Assets is the best description.
 
docmirror said:
They need your dues, but they don't need your hassles. It's a one way club and if you aren't in the club more than a dues payer, it's tough shyte from them.
Click to expand...


Good description. I dumped AOPA about 4 years ago for this and other reasons.

And after time and time again requesting they remove my email address and stop emailing me I still get endless emails wanting me to rejoin. They simply don't get it.
 
retailguy said:
Tom,

Lots of talk here about the jet, and the things folks don't like. I wish I was able to worry about things like that.

I'm a two year AOPA member. Just learned to fly. Then I got sick. Now I'm better. Still trying to get my medical back. My condition was rare, no previous track record to follow.

My partner kept telling me, call AOPA, they'll help you. So I called. With my credit card in hand, yet knowing what was going to happen.

I spoke with a very nice lady, who explained to me that in her long service with AOPA, she'd never seen a case like mine (I was not surprised). She offered to call the FAA for me, and she did. Called me right back, and basically told me that there wasn't much help she could provide and the FAA's advice was, send in your information and we'll look at it. Then she turned me away, saying there wasn't much you guys could do for me.

I understand why. My condition is rare, and it would cost your experts more than $100 bucks to figure it out. However, I'm a bit disillusioned, as most of your sales pitches were focused on your group being there when I needed you. Guess what? I need you.

My partner is/was floored. I was not surprised. I'm an unprofitable client, outside of the mainstream. I did not have a heart attack, nor do I have diabetes. So, there is no pre-laid out plan to follow. It's going to take work, and lots of time and money.

Please convey this to your management. I could care less about the politics, and whether you fly on a private jet or take American. I just want to fly in my little Cessna for a hamburger on Saturday, and to take my family to the beach twice a year.
Click to expand...

Message conveyed.

I've been waiting to respond until the head of our medical certification dept. was back in the office. While what you were told may be correct, I'd like him to hear you out. Please PM me so I can hook you up him directly.

Thanks,
--Tom
 
I like AOPA, even though I did not appreciate its efforts to mislead the membership about the character of the proposed user fees. It would have been better to have just told the truth and let people make up their own minds.

But I think the best part is the online courses, "Real Pilot Stories", bulletins, and the other learning materials. Please make more of those.
 
When I retired from active duty I joined AOPA because the literature conveyed a message I could get behind. But it actually was what I consider a bait and switch. I was inundated with unsolicited offers for credit cards, insurance of every flavor and pleas for money on a nearly daily basis, and the programs and information seem aimed at entry level pilots who still have stars in their eyes. I lasted the initial year, and have never considered renewal.
 
Interesting story this week. I requested my auto-renewal be turned off since I probably wouldn't have renewed this year were it not for having turned that on a while back.

The good: It was done immediately, first response.

The weird: The pitch to not turn it off (I was expecting that, of course) was not about what services or features I might miss out on, but was instead a reminder that one gets five more entries for the Sweepstakes airplane when on auto-pay.

A) I didn't know that.

B) I sat there wondering if anyone actually puts enough value on the Sweepstakes that losing five entries sways their auto-pay decision for their membership.

C) A side thought was that the extra entries probably skew winning in favor of those willing to leave membership on auto-pay who have plenty of assets and have AOPA payments set to auto-ignore. How many bright-eyed broke youngsters think their shot at the Sweeps is as good as every other member? 'Cause... It isn't.

I didn't catch if that's only for the year it's activated or every year, but I suspect it's every year auto-pay is turned on.

Weird carrot to dangle.
 
It's kinda like a home alarm system. When the false alarms, expense and nuisance factor are greater than the benefits (crooks are only in the house for two minutes and the cops don't arrive for fifteen) at some point you just disconnect the damn thing and never look back.

Threefingeredjack said:
When I retired from active duty I joined AOPA because the literature conveyed a message I could get behind. But it actually was what I consider a bait and switch. I was inundated with unsolicited offers for credit cards, insurance of every flavor and pleas for money on a nearly daily basis, and the programs and information seem aimed at entry level pilots who still have stars in their eyes. I lasted the initial year, and have never considered renewal.
Click to expand...
 
Be sure to count the number of times that "unfortunately" is used in the answer.

TomHaines said:
Message conveyed.

I've been waiting to respond until the head of our medical certification dept. was back in the office. While what you were told may be correct, I'd like him to hear you out. Please PM me so I can hook you up him directly.

Thanks,
--Tom
Click to expand...
 
I used the money to join the NRA instead. (The only organization with an equal amount of junk mail!)
 
TomHaines said:
Message conveyed.

I've been waiting to respond until the head of our medical certification dept. was back in the office. While what you were told may be correct, I'd like him to hear you out. Please PM me so I can hook you up him directly.

Thanks,
--Tom
Click to expand...
Just sat with Gary at the Sheraton Chicago meeting. He's up to his earballs. As am I.

Bruce
 
Tom, since you're back I'll repeat a question I had that I don't think you've answered:

" ... please give us independent citations that would let us evaluate AOPA's effectiveness. Links to your own puffery are not helpful in this respect. Surely, if AOPA hits above its weight as members are constantly told, other publications (Washington Post, Avweek, etc.) would have noticed and commented."

Thanks in advance.
 
airdale said:
Tom, since you're back I'll repeat a question I had that I don't think you've answered:

" ... please give us independent citations that would let us evaluate AOPA's effectiveness. Links to your own puffery are not helpful in this respect. Surely, if AOPA hits above its weight as members are constantly told, other publications (Washington Post, Avweek, etc.) would have noticed and commented."

Thanks in advance.
Click to expand...

If you're one who believes the NRA is effective, then you might find interesting the frequent mentions of AOPA being the "NRA of aviation", including this reference from a few months ago by James Fallows of The Atlantic: http://www.theatlantic.com/national...ive-suggestion-and-a-test-for-the-nra/266316/

As does GA News: http://www.generalaviationnews.com/2011/11/the-nra-of-the-air/

AOPA's media properties have won many awards from media peers over the years, including Magazine Publishers of America, FOLIO, Association Media & Publishing--including two Gold awards and two Bronze awards in the 2013 competition, which will be officially announced next month in Washington, D.C.

The general media frequently seek out AOPA experts for comments on general aviation issues, especially following high-profile accidents.

I am not aware of any "effectiveness ranking" for associations--tough to do given the great diversity of interests that associations represent.
 
Thanks, Tom. That kind of stuff is nice to hear. I have always believed that AOPA probably was probably as effective as such a small organization could be but it is nice to see the external comments.

I always found the puffery in the magazine to be a little unconvincing, though. It seems that everything positive that happens is caused solely by AOPA. In fact I got so tired of seeing Phil Boyer's picture on every other page that I switched to Flight Training for a few years. That book is necessarily repetitive though, so after a while I switched back. My impression was that Craig was not quite so ubiquitous.

But, regardless, I'm an ex-member now. In the unlikely event that AOPA's panjandrums decide to turn it into a member-controlled organization, I'll be back. In the mean time, I expect and hope that the lobbying will continue. Given the $70M there is certainly enough money to support it!
 
TomHaines said:
If you're one who believes the NRA is effective, then you might find interesting the frequent mentions of AOPA being the "NRA of aviation", including this reference from a few months ago by James Fallows of The Atlantic: http://www.theatlantic.com/national...ive-suggestion-and-a-test-for-the-nra/266316/

As does GA News: http://www.generalaviationnews.com/2011/11/the-nra-of-the-air/
Click to expand...

Well Tom, this is not as it would seem from your point of view. The first link is from the most liberal rag in the world, from a writer who is NOT an NRA member, and compares the two with a very decided slant against the NRA.

The second link actually was pretty accurate. Back in the 80s and 90s the AOPA was much more like the NRA of that time. They were aggressive, and had more of a take-no-prisoners approach to any regulation that would not guarantee a safety benefit. I can recall clearly the effect AOPA had on the size and shape of the San Diego class B(TRSA at that time). They recommended a narrow approach corridor for KSAN, no control for Miramar. The FAA wanted a solid SFC-18,000' barrier from KSAN all the way north to Miramar. The eventual TRSA was workable for pilots using Gillespie, and Montgomery. Now, I can't see AOPA doing anything so drastic as they did back then. Now it's all about go along to get along, and the results have been predictable. We have unconstitutional demands for international crossings, TSA/DHS looking at and searching GA pilots and planes, ADS-B fiasco, and a host of other issues that the AOPA just rolled over on.

The only place where there is some gain is the EXP/LSA/SP area which AOPA has NO interest in! Trust me on this, as a long time NRA member, the AOPA is nothing like them. The NRA gets things done, the AOPA has made very few gains in the past 10 years.
 
Last edited:
Organizations tend to measure themselves by their capabilities. Outsiders tend to measure them by their results.
 
wabower said:
Organizations tend to measure themselves by their capabilities. Outsiders tend to measure them by their results.
Click to expand...

I'm gonna use that line on some business software providers I need to rake over the coals tomorrow.

Thanks!

Oh, and AOPA? Their effectiveness is a mystery because you never know what their real impact is. But their finances and expenses? Aargh.
 
wabower said:
Organizations tend to measure themselves by their capabilities. Outsiders tend to measure them by their results.
Click to expand...

That is about the most profound statement I've read for a while...(not sarcastic...that's an excellent piece of wisdom for me to store away), thanks!:yes:
 
It's *ahem* original, patented, copyrighted and registered and in Funks, so I'll expect the appropriate royalty if/when youse guys use it ;)
JeffDG said:
That is about the most profound statement I've read for a while...(not sarcastic...that's an excellent piece of wisdom for me to store away), thanks!:yes:
Click to expand...
 
docmirror said:
Well Tom, this is not as it would seem from your point of view. The first link is from the most liberal rag in the world, from a writer who is NOT an NRA member, and compares the two with a very decided slant against the NRA.

The second link actually was pretty accurate. Back in the 80s and 90s the AOPA was much more like the NRA of that time. They were aggressive, and had more of a take-no-prisoners approach to any regulation that would not guarantee a safety benefit. I can recall clearly the effect AOPA had on the size and shape of the San Diego class B(TRSA at that time). They recommended a narrow approach corridor for KSAN, no control for Miramar. The FAA wanted a solid SFC-18,000' barrier from KSAN all the way north to Miramar. The eventual TRSA was workable for pilots using Gillespie, and Montgomery. Now, I can't see AOPA doing anything so drastic as they did back then. Now it's all about go along to get along, and the results have been predictable. We have unconstitutional demands for international crossings, TSA/DHS looking at and searching GA pilots and planes, ADS-B fiasco, and a host of other issues that the AOPA just rolled over on.

The only place where there is some gain is the EXP/LSA/SP area which AOPA has NO interest in! Trust me on this, as a long time NRA member, the AOPA is nothing like them. The NRA gets things done, the AOPA has made very few gains in the past 10 years.
Click to expand...

The original request was for some sort of validation from another publication. The Atlantic is that--and a well-respected one at that. And James Fallows is one of the most thought-provoking authors writing today. Whether The Atlantic is liberal or conservative does not de-validate his writing that AOPA is an effective advocate. Whether Fallows is a member of the NRA or not adds nothing to the discussion.

Your comment that AOPA has "NO interest" in EXP/LSA/SP is without basis. NO PUBLICATION has featured more LSAs than AOPA PILOT. Over the past year we have also featured numerous EXP aircraft as well. We have also featured numerous pieces of EXP avionics and systems.
 
docmirror said:
Well Tom, this is not as it would seem from your point of view. The first link is from the most liberal rag in the world, from a writer who is NOT an NRA member, and compares the two with a very decided slant against the NRA.
Click to expand...

Wait, The Atlantic is a "liberal rag"? The magazine founded by Emerson? Are you familiar with Ralph Waldo Emerson? Do you have any idea what you are talking about? On what grounds do you make your claim?

Jesus ****ing Christ. Just, Jesus man.
 
TomHaines said:
The original request was for some sort of validation from another publication. The Atlantic is that--and a well-respected one at that. And James Fallows is one of the most thought-provoking authors writing today. Whether The Atlantic is liberal or conservative does not de-validate his writing that AOPA is an effective advocate. Whether Fallows is a member of the NRA or not adds nothing to the discussion.

Your comment that AOPA has "NO interest" in EXP/LSA/SP is without basis. NO PUBLICATION has featured more LSAs than AOPA PILOT. Over the past year we have also featured numerous EXP aircraft as well. We have also featured numerous pieces of EXP avionics and systems.
Click to expand...

2014 Plane Sweepstakes idea - RV12. Kill two birds with one very useful, very pretty...ummm...other bird I guess?
 
bartmc said:
Let's ask wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_magazines
Click to expand...

Thank you, but please don't bother the leftists. They're on a roll. According to the leftists, AOPA = NRA, even though no one over there is a member of the NRA. And AOPA is all about the LSA crowd, even though they tried to kill it in favor of the rec pilot license back when it was being debated. Late to the party, but maybe improving. Nothing like they were back in the 80s.
 
Tommy3 said:
No, man, no. You don't ask wikipedia. You get yourself educated. Dude said "the most liberal rag in the world". Anyone who knows anything about these matters know that the Atlantic--Jesus, man--isn't that.
Click to expand...

I ask wikipedia as a litmus test. So, yes, man yes. I do ask wikipedia. I have a couple of engineering degrees and a minor in this or that. I'm educated enough for my personal preference. I also don't take anything that is followed with "In the world" literally. Call it common sense. Flying Spaghetti monster man.

With that, they reserve spin zone for grinding your political axes around here.
 
docmirror said:
Thank you, but please don't bother the leftists. They're on a roll. According to the leftists, AOPA = NRA, even though no one over there is a member of the NRA. And AOPA is all about the LSA crowd, even though they tried to kill it in favor of the rec pilot license back when it was being debated. Late to the party, but maybe improving. Nothing like they were back in the 80s.
Click to expand...

Wait, what? I'm a leftist (I mean, probably by your standards I am) but I really like AOPA.
 
bartmc said:
I ask wikipedia as a litmus test. So, yes, man yes. I do ask wikipedia. I have a couple of engineering degrees and a minor in this or that. I'm educated enough for my personal preference. I also don't take anything that is followed with "In the world" literally. Call it common sense. Flying Spaghetti monster man.

With that, they reserve spin zone for grinding your political axes around here.
Click to expand...

Not a sound methodological approach, my friend. For example, Mother Jones is clearly more "liberal" than The Atlantic--I don't think anyone would dispute that--and so the poster's claim is incorrect. I didn't bring up politics, he did. I'm just going to call out bull**** when I see it.
 
Tommy3 said:
Not a sound methodological approach, my friend. For example, Mother Jones is clearly more "liberal" than The Atlantic--I don't think anyone would dispute that--and so the poster's claim is incorrect. I didn't bring up politics, he did. I'm just going to call out bull**** when I see it.
Click to expand...

Enjoy your quest in finding someone to debate on your terms. If you think he literally meant "most liberal rag in the world". I have some property you might be interested in. Being deliberately obtuse isn't a sound methodological approach.. friend.
 
Tommy3 said:
Wait, what? I'm a leftist (I mean, probably by your standards I am) but I really like AOPA.
Click to expand...

Well, I have no interest in your politics, but I am concerned that everyone at AOPA is about six degrees to the left of Stalin. That's what were talking about here.

world < you > world. Revolve as needed.
 
bartmc said:
Enjoy your quest in finding someone to debate on your terms. If you think he literally meant "most liberal rag in the world". I have some property you might be interested in. Being deliberately obtuse isn't a sound methodological approach.. friend.
Click to expand...

Say false things and I'm going to point out that they're false. If you are going to hold yourself to loose rhetorical standards that is your own affair.
 
Last edited:
bartmc said:
Enjoy your quest in finding someone to debate on your terms. If you think he literally meant "most liberal rag in the world". I have some property you might be interested in. Being deliberately obtuse isn't a sound methodological approach.. friend.
Click to expand...

Again, thanks but things like 'metaphor' and 'simile' are ancient Etruscan civilizations to the cognoscenti from the left. (p.s. 'cognoscenti' is not a pizza shack in Florence):lol:

<edit: I want to apologize for those who are offended by my political POV outside of spin zone. However, I truly think this is one of the many serious and significant problems with the mgmt at AOPA.>
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top