DuPuis Family Cobra Build

[3393RP]

LOL at myself...I meant to type 2020.

 

[Ted]

LOL at myself...I meant to type 2020.

I’m hoping to be able to drive it on 11/15/2019.

 

[Ted]

Got the drivers side done tonight. There was less consistency in this one for reasons unknown. A couple cylinders on this side required 45 thou worth of shimming and a couple 25. We’ll see if it evens out after running a bit. I’m happy I got the 8.150” pushrods, worked well.

The easy thing to do next is the oil pump install, but then I need to decide what to do about the intake and put on the timing cover after modifying it. Once the oil pump is on I may also look at a few things relating to the oil pan and pickup to get those figured out.

 

[3393RP]

You're not gonna reuse the pickup that was in the Mustang engine?

 

[Ted]

You're not gonna reuse the pickup that was in the Mustang engine?

The Mustangs all had distributors. EDIS was Ford’s first distributorless ignotion. Since the distributor drives the oil pump, Ford made a “cam phaser sensor” that was basically the bottom half of a distributor. Easy.

 

[Ted]

I ordered a few more parts today which will probably get here towards the end of the week. What I ordered:

- Meziere 55 GPM electric water pump
- Ford Racing 47 lb/hr fuel injectors
- Lug nuts
- Seat heaters

A bit of an odd combination, but the way that Summit has their current promotion/rebates tiered it made sense to maximize the dollars saved on purchases I was going to make anyway.

I'd been planning on the electric water pump for some time. This is one of my splurges that adds several hundred bucks vs. a standard variety belt-driven pump which works just fine, but it's something I've always been entertained by the concept of and that I want to use because of its ability to cool down the engine after shutting it off, provide maximum cooling even at idle, and also having one less belt-driven thing to hopefully increase the throttle response of the engine. I was going to wait a bit longer on doing this, but I've decided I need to order it now for a few reasons. For one I have to modify a timing cover for the timing gears and this will let me confirm which one I need to modify, and then it'll also let me start to look at confirming what size I need for my harmonic balancer and if I'm going to be able to run a timing wheel for EDIS as opposed to a distributor. My decision on the Meziere pump was one I thought about heavily as it costs about twice as much as basically all the other pumps available. It also flows 55 GPH instead of 35 GPH, which I figured would make a difference if I ever track the car, plus it gets hot here in Kansas. The Meziere electric pump is also the only one I was able to find that has ports to support a heater, which is important since I'm planning on that. So I figured it made sense.

For injectors I chose Ford Racing and the size for a few reasons. 47 lb-hr is significantly higher than I need (42 would be plenty, and 38 would probably be ideal). Price wise, the 47 lb-hr were actually cheaper for brand new ones and they came factory on one of the later Mustangs. This will give me enough capacity for essentially anything I want power wise going forward. And since they were cheaper than the smaller ones, no real reason to go smaller. Yes, there's a concern about idle quality, but on a 351 cubic inch (actually 358 cubic inches with the .040 overbore) engine, it'll be fine. I ran 450cc (so 42 lb-hr) injectors on my 3000GT VR-4 and it idled fine. Besides, a rough idle is acceptable.

Lug nuts, straightforward there.

The seat heaters just add the pads underneath the fabric as well as the switches, which they put on the side but may be better to relocate to the dashboard (I'll figure that one out). Those will help on chillier days and they're cheap at $35 each, just takes some extra labor to take the seat covers off and reinstall them.

The more I think about it, the more I want to go for EDIS for ignition. Technology wise, it matches the time period I'm going for, having been released in the early 90s and in production on the 5.0 in the late 90s. For a Y2K technology car with a 302/351 it's something that would've been used at that time. Plus the EDIS has a much stronger spark than standard distributors, allowing for a wider spark plug gap meaning better firing and should also help responsiveness and efficiency. Also the system is insanely reliable in my experience and provides infinitely adjustable ignition timing adjustments.

One negative at this point is that the newest EDIS vehicle is 20 years old now so finding good junkyard parts essentially doesn't happen. That's not a big deal since I'm trying to do as much as I can new anyway, but that does drive up some additional cost. Also it looks like on the 302s with EDIS the coils were mounted fairly high up, which may cause a hood interference issue and push me back towards a distributor. For now, I'm not ordering anything and just moving forward on putting the engine together one bit at a time.

My wife is back off to work tomorrow, so I'll try to finish up the brake and fuel lines while she's gone, as well as keep plugging away on the motor. I figure I'll put the oil pickup on and then start looking more into the oil pan while waiting on the water pump so I can do the timing cover bits. Once I get the timing cover and the oil pan on I may start attaching the bellhousing and other bits so I can get to where I can put the engine and transmission in the car. Also have some aluminum panels in the engine bay I can start riveting on.

My hope is that when my wife gets back from work we can bleed the brakes on the car and put the engine and transmission in, but we'll see.

 

[Ted]

Oh, and that brings up another question I'm trying to think about - what brake fluid to use.

DOT 3/4 is the standard, and the master cylinder says "DOT 3 only" on it. Of course that's assuming older style non-synthetic DOT 3. I'm leaning towards going with synthetic DOT 5.1. It's got a higher boiling point than DOT 3 and 4 and is compatible with DOT 3/4 systems, so it seems like the way to go. Technically I could also use DOT 5 since I'm not going with ABS, but 5.1 gives me more flexibility and I'm not sure DOT 5 would actually provide any real benefits.

 

[tmyers]

Does the electric water pump have the ability to vary flow to match load? Will your electric fans have that ability?

Do the electric seat heaters need to be under leather rather than cloth. I remember that the last two Hondas we have purchased only came with heated seats if you had leather. Might just be a Honda thing.

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[Ted]

Does the electric water pump have the ability to vary flow to match load? Will your electric fans have that ability?

The pump and the fan do not come with built-in ability to vary their flow rates to match load. I am contemplating adding a hi/lo setup for the water pump, and tying the hi to either a switch (manual) or a thermostatic switch that also kicks the fan on.

Do the electric seat heaters need to be under leather rather than cloth. I remember that the last two Hondas we have purchased only came with heated seats if you had leather. Might just be a Honda thing.

The seats are vinyl. What the heaters are put under is irrelevant, but most manufacturers will only offer heated seats with leather. Basically the idea of charging more for a premium option by making you get another premium option on top of it. This is actually a pretty common modification on these cars - not unlike heated grips on motorcycles.

 

[tmyers]

Marketing at it's best

 

[Bill]

Do the electric seat heaters need to be under leather rather than cloth. I remember that the last two Hondas we have purchased only came with heated seats if you had leather.

Our '19 Civic Si has heated cloth seats, so they are available, but usually bundled with luxury packages that include dead cow seats etc.

 

[Ted]

Our '19 Civic Si has heated cloth seats, so they are available, but usually bundled with luxury packages that include dead cow seats etc.

"Would you like dead cow or not dead cow?"

Laurie's back off to work, so I'm looking at the various bits of the project that I need to work on over the next week. I'll probably do work on brakes tonight.

 

[tmyers]

Mooooo, did Cowman just enter the thread?

 

[Ted]

Some days you just feel like everything goes against you. This was one of those days when I got in the garage working on the car. Spent a couple hours in the garage and got close to zero actually accomplished moving forward.

First thing I wanted to do: transfer over the oil pickup onto the new oil pump. Mistake on my part - the oil pump and pickup on a 351W are different than a 302, so I couldn't reuse that. Honestly that's a good thing I figure, as the stock oil pickup has some crush bends in it around the oil pump area, which look very restrictive. New ones are about $23 from Summit, so not a big deal there, but no progress made on that front, and another Summit order I need to make.

Then I wanted to go and put the brake line on from the master cylinder to the tee in the front. That wouldn't go on at all. At the master cylinder, turns out the forward port is either a 1/4" or 5/16" flared fitting, not 3/16". Makes sense, but FFR uses 3/16" lines, so I need an adapter to step it down. Ok, fine. But then why couldn't I get the line threaded in at the other end? Ahh, there's the problem - the flared fittings on the line I got from O'Reilly didn't start the threads until a few mm up - just enough to not engage. So now that line I made isn't useful, and I need to go to the auto parts store to hopefully find a line that has the threads all the way to the end. Great.

So then I decide I might as well put on the intake manifold. After all, it looks cool and that's one of the next steps that needs to happen. So out comes the intake manifold, the gaskets, the studs. Got the studs all in and tightened down for their first run torque. Then I get the intake manifold out and decided to do a test fit before putting on RTV and getting set to torque everything down. Good thing, too, because the intake wouldn't fit on. It lined up correctly, however in casting the intake manifold the edges of the casting interfere with the flange where the valve covers go on the heads. I made a video of what I tried to do (and failed at doing apparently) that shows the issue better, I'll post it tomorrow. But I'm going to have to do some modifications to make it fit. I think what I'll have to do is cut off about 1/4" of aluminum the whole length of the manifold off of either side. The angle grinder will make quick work of this but it's really annoying to have to do, and I'm going to call up Speedmaster before I do it. I don't see an issue but it is annoying that I have to do that to make it fit.

And then while looking at the engine, I noticed that the washer for the cam bolt is just large enough that it goes over the locating pin, which thus has the washer cocked. So I need to take the washer off, grind it down, and then put it back on. I could've done that tonight, but I just didn't.

Oh, the one thing I did accomplish though was painting a couple more panels that I may start riveting in sometime this week or weekend. Still have some more of those to do.

It didn't feel like a very accomplishful evening, but in reality that's how these things work sometimes and part of why there's a calendar time aspect involved in these builds, not just hours. Tomorrow I get some parts from Summit that I ordered yesterday and be able to move forward.

That said, I was able to look at the engine and even though it's a ways away from running with a lot left, it looks really, really cool, and that made me smile.

If you look carefully you can see the intake sitting just a hair tall, and you can see where it's hitting the heads in the wrong spot.

 

[3393RP]

If it was my hunka aluminum I would find someone to mill the edge. I don't think you will be happy with the results if you grind it.

 

[Ted]

If it was my hunka aluminum I would find someone to mill the edge. I don't think you will be happy with the results if you grind it.

That’s a good point. A friend of mine has a CNC machine so I might ask him.

 

[EppyGA]

One step forward.........

 

[Ted]

One step forward.........

Yesterday was definitely one step forward 4 steps back, but those days happen.

 

[Bill]

The unicorn seems to like the engine!

 

[Ted]

A friend of mine made the point that the issue may not be an intake related item, or at least not fully so, but that it could have to do with the combination of the heads and the block being shaved/decked. So that's a good point, and I should look into the geometry to make sure that the ports are lined up properly before I do anything I may need to instead get the intake decked to match the head/block geometry. So I'll look into that tonight maybe. Again, this is where the calendar time aspect of building something properly comes into play.

 

[SoonerAviator]

If it was my hunka aluminum I would find someone to mill the edge. I don't think you will be happy with the results if you grind it.

Agreed, especially on the price paid. You won't likely notice the edge anyway once the valve covers are on, but that's not the point.

 

[Ted]

Agreed, especially on the price paid. You won't likely notice the edge anyway once the valve covers are on, but that's not the point.

Yes, once I take a look at port geometry to make sure that there's no overlap requiring an actual decking of the intake, I'll decide on the best path.

 

[Zeldman]

A friend of mine made the point that the issue may not be an intake related item, or at least not fully so, but that it could have to do with the combination of the heads and the block being shaved/decked. So that's a good point, and I should look into the geometry to make sure that the ports are lined up properly before I do anything I may need to instead get the intake decked to match the head/block geometry. So I'll look into that tonight maybe. Again, this is where the calendar time aspect of building something properly comes into play.

That is exactly what I was going to ask about, if the block had been decked and/or heads have been angle milled. Followed by checking the runners on the intake and heads to see if they align up.

We had a Hilborn injected Ford 302 come in that wasn't running right. We discovered that the intake didn't fit square on the heads due to the block being aggressively decked and the heads angle milled. Long story short we cut the intake in half length wise, bolted it to the heads, tacked the two halves together, removed it and wielded it back together.

That is why it is called building a motor instead of assembling.....

 

[SCCutler]

Awesome.

 

[Ted]

That is exactly what I was going to ask about, if the block had been decked and/or heads have been angle milled. Followed by checking the runners on the intake and heads to see if they align up.

We had a Hilborn injected Ford 302 come in that wasn't running right. We discovered that the intake didn't fit square on the heads due to the block being aggressively decked and the heads angle milled. Long story short we cut the intake in half length wise, bolted it to the heads, tacked the two halves together, removed it and wielded it back together.

That is why it is called building a motor instead of assembling.....

I think you might've told that story 15 pages ago, and I remembered and was thinking about it.

If you recall, when I got the first parts car (the one that these heads came off of), it seemed that the intake had not sealed correctly to the heads, and the coolant level was basically in line with the heads (with some coolant in the pan). Now, that intake bolted up and also unbolted just fine, but I never looked to see if the angle was such that it would cause a problem. It's possible that they just did a poor job installing the intake manifold (like they did on everything else). The heads have been shaved a good bit. Spec on them is 60cc chambers, and the shop measured them at 56.5cc. I'm sure the block was also decked when they rebuilt it.

That said, the big issue as I see it is really just the casting of the individual throttle body intake. I can't see a reason why it needs to be done the way it was done with the extra material being there on the width. I imagine when they designed it they just used a new, as spec'd block and probably stock head profile, and Edelbrock probably changed things a bit.

So, now I need to do some checking, and probably some machining. This will probably take some time to get right.

Like you said, Billy - building, not assembling.

On the good side, figured out the brake line problem. I didn't realize how many different types of fittings were available for 3/16" hard brake lines, and neither did the guy who sold me the line I bought at O'Reilly. They sold me bubble fittings, and I needed standard. They also sell metric threads. Anyway, got the right thing ordered, probably pick it up on my way home today, and then hopefully be able to get that on tonight. Also picked up the adapters for the master cylinder, so I can hopefully get the brake system for the front half of the car finished up this evening, tomorrow at the latest.

So maybe tonight I get a few things sorted out that I found issues with last night.

 

[Zeldman]

I think you might've told that story 15 pages ago, and I remembered and was thinking about it.

Probably did. I am getting old, you know....

Hello Grampa, my old friend,
Your busy day is at an end.
Your exploits have been sad and boring,
They tell a tale that's worth ignoring.
When you're alone, the words of your story
Will echo down the rest-home hall,
'Cause no one at all,
Can stand the sound
Of Grampa.

 

[Ted]

Probably did. I am getting old, you know....

Hello Grampa, my old friend,
Your busy day is at an end.
Your exploits have been sad and boring,
They tell a tale that's worth ignoring.
When you're alone, the words of your story
Will echo down the rest-home hall,
'Cause no one at all,
Can stand the sound
Of Grampa.

It was good you told it twice!

 

[Ted]

Back to the garage this evening, and another evening where it didn't feel like I got much done.

First thing I did was easy - I ground down the washer for the cam bolt so that I could tighten that down correctly. No big deal, got that done.

My order from Summit today included my electric water pump (a piece that's a sight to behold... very nice quality unit), lug nuts, fuel injectors, and the seat heaters (which I ordered because it got me to the next discount level). I also picked up the proper brake line, and what I figured were going to be the right connectors. Well, partially right. The new line does now connect at the wheel where it needs to. However the master cylinder, which looked to be either sized for 1/4" or 5/16" line, doesn't fit the standard threads for either (I bought adapters for both). What I'm thinking is now the case is that the master cylinder is metric. The 3/8-24 will thread into an M10x1, and that fits in on the forward port (for the rear brakes). But the rear port (for the forward brakes) could be an M11 or M12x1. The thread pitch looks to be the same as what's on the 3/16" brake hose, so that would make sense. More playing around with that is required to figure out what to get.

Then I was looking at the rear brake line screwing into the master cylinder. That will thread down just fine, but as with many hard brake lines that you buy, it has one end that's got a longer fitting with more threads and one end with a shorter fitting with fewer threads. I had put the shorter fitting with fewer threads at the master cylinder. Bad decision - it looks like tightening that down the whole way ends up with the fitting screwed up against the master cylinder, and I'm not convinced it's actually holding the hard line tight like it should. So now I either need to take that hard line off (did I mention it's riveted?) and rebend it, or find a 3/16 to 3/16" adapter (or maybe an M10x1 to 3/16" adapter if I'm right and this is metric) with more threads.

But the water pump looks cool! Ok, let me look at that. As expected, it fits the older style timing cover. Great, let's just clean that up and then we can start machining it for clearance with the timing gears and... that's a big crack. This timing cover is toast, time to order another one. Looks like $50 will buy me a new one, need to get that ordered.

I then decided to look at the intake. Against sound advice, I took out the angle grinder and started grinding. In the end this actually works pretty well and the finish is not bad. Would be bad for a show car, but this is not that, and I don't think most people will ever notice. I got about 75% done but it takes a lot of grinding to get that much aluminum off. Tomorrow I should get that completed. I can't say with any certainty at this point whether it seems like the intake will sit properly or need additional machining. I think it will be ok, but need to get enough material off to be able to tell for sure. I am a bit concerned there, but we'll see once I get the appropriate grinding finished.

I did pull one of the fuel injectors out of the box and took a look. That does fit into the intake manifold and it looks like it'll work. I haven't tried bolting up the fuel rails to see how all of that looks. Also, I got the adjustable pushrod that I needed for hooking up the brake pedal to the master cylinder.

Tomorrow I should probably work on the brakes at the back of the car and installing that adjustable pushrod (and getting it adjusted) but I'll probably try to finish grinding the intake and try to get that checked off.

 

[-KLB-]

If that grinding wheel is not specifically rated for aluminum, please throw it away when you are done. Aluminum tends to load up on grinding wheels, and has a much higher coefficient or expansion than the wheel itself, that can lead to high stresses and grinding wheels flying apart. While there isn’t as much mass in a 4.5 inch disk as a bench grinder wheel, I would hate to see this thread delayed for a few weeks while you heal.

 

[Ted]

If that grinding wheel is not specifically rated for aluminum, please throw it away when you are done. Aluminum tends to load up on grinding wheels, and has a much higher coefficient or expansion than the wheel itself, that can lead to high stresses and grinding wheels flying apart. While there isn’t as much mass in a 4.5 inch disk as a bench grinder wheel, I would hate to see this thread delayed for a few weeks while you heal.

A very good point. I'm going to throw away the wheel I've been using now, use a new one to finish up, and then throw that away.

 

[Ted]

So I looked into my brake adapter issue, and I think I'm correct that it's metric threads that I need to convert to standard. And then I found this kit:

https://www.maximummotorsports.com/...-1994-95-Cobra-GT-master-cylinders-P1101.aspx

Only problem is that company sells literally nothing else I want, and they're saying $17 shipping for a $15 pair of fittings. I'm going to call them up when they open and see if they can just drop the things in a padded envelope sent USPS. And if not I'll probably just break down and pay for the shipping to get what ought to solve that problem.

 

[Ted]

Earlier I called up Maximum Motorsports (who sells those adapter fittings) and they said the stupid shipping costs had to do with the guy who designed their website (who apparently was also not too bright). He said to put "Ship via USPS" in the comments and they'd do that and it'd be about $3. Much better. So those are on their way, should arrive sometime next week.

Given the positive direction on the brakes, this evening I decided I should work on the brake lines and keep that trend going. After all, the engine had been frustrating and the brakes need to get done. So I made good progress there. I got the rear crossover brake line going between the left and right wheel bent up and in place, as well as the new hard line going from the master cylinder to the left front wheel. That one is going to require a bit of tweaking, but it's mostly there. Now I can go back to O'Reillys and have them refund me for the incorrect (and more expensive) line that they sold me for that part. Now there's only one more hard line I have to make, and that's the one going from about mid-car to the back where it'll connect to the tee for the two rear wheels.

I then started playing around with the adjustable pushrod that I ordered. It's going to require a little machining so that it trips the brake light switch at the appropriate time, but I'm confident it'll work.

So my next items will probably be doing that last hard line, running all the clamps to hold the hard lines in place, and then finishing up that pushrod. Then the brake system will be complete other than waiting on those adapters, and then I'll be able to bleed the brakes and have one system "complete" (if there is such a thing).

One thing I forgot to mention, I did decide on DOT 5.1 and got a couple bottles of MOTUL 5.1 brake fluid.

The kids have also said they want to help rivet panels this weekend, so I think once I get the brake pushrod installed and adjusted correctly, I'll probably let them have some fun with the rivet gun in the areas where I'm comfortable saying that they're ready to close up (which are up front). I think tomorrow night's goal will be the brake pushrod and maybe that last brake line, then maybe also starting on the clamps that are needed.

 

[Ted]

So this looks like I took the photo wrong but it’s intentional. I got rid of the remainder of the parts car today. I was at a point where there was nothing I was going to use from it, and Laurie, as patient as she is, did want it gone. Pushed it onto a guy’s trailer with my front end loader and away it went.

Total invested into this parts car: -$175. Yes, negative $175. And I still have the block and a bunch of T-5 components.

I also got to play a bit with the adjustable brake pushrod. I had to grind down some material so the brake light switch would work and got just a bit too much, so then I had to add a spacer to make it up. Now got it perfect... I think.

 

[kyleb]

....and they're saying $17 shipping for a $15 pair of fittings. I'm going to call them up when they open and see if they can just drop the things in a padded envelope sent USPS. And if not I'll probably just break down and pay for the shipping to get what ought to solve that problem.

Welcome to the world of kit building anything. In the finishing and/or drivetrain portion of the project, you need a lot of very specific small items. The shipping cost is frequently more than the part itself. And just as soon as a vendor (say Summit or Aircraft Spruce) notifies you the shipment is in the mail, you're likely to find another fitting you're gonna need to move forward.

 

[Ted]

Welcome to the world of kit building anything. In the finishing and/or drivetrain portion of the project, you need a lot of very specific small items. The shipping cost is frequently more than the part itself. And just as soon as a vendor (say Summit or Aircraft Spruce) notifies you the shipment is in the mail, you're likely to find another fitting you're gonna need to move forward.

For this reason exactly I’ve been keeping track of (but not ordering) a number of parts from Summit so that I can always have free shipping when I come across something that’s axtually holding me up. So far it’s worked, but I’m sure that at some point it won’t anymore.

In this case they shipped the fittings USPS for $4. Much better.

 

[Ted]

I basically quit for the night, but I did get the brake pushrod installed and confirmed the brake light switch works correctly with the pushrod set up the way it is. So, now I finish up the one brake line, clamp it all down, and wait for the final brake fittings. Meanwhile, I’ll let the kids help with some panel riveting.

 

[tmyers]

We should be able to call at least one of the girls "Rosie the riveter"

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[Ted]

The girls didn’t want to rivet, but my son did. So we got the trunk sides completed (both inside and out). I need to finish up the brake lines and the fuel lines and then I could finish the trunk metal if I wanted.

 

[tmyers]

Well out of respect for mu bud I will not call him Rosie. Ted he is growing up so fast.

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[Ted]

Well out of respect for mu bud I will not call him Rosie. Ted he is growing up so fast.

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You can call him Robert the Riveter.

And yes he is.